Analysis The theory that Collingwood wasn't broken post 2011

[WalterBlaknWhte]

Like we have seen with other personality cults(I.e Voss& Hird) Bucks possesses equally as uncompromising personality as his cohorts.

Hird's narcissistic, messianic, charisma was at cult leader level. The damage his reckless oversight wrought continues for so many young men.

Bucks and Vossy have shown far more humility to learn.


(BTW Kaaa Hunt, did your name cause you difficulties when read at school assembly?)

 

[Krueger]

A few variables missing from the OP's contention.

Stats alone don't tell the full story.

Was Jolly, Thomas' decline largely a result of form, or because they were at odds with the coach? Could we have obtained greater input from these two players had we retained stability and continuity in the coaching department?

The OP also minimises the impact destabilising the football department with a complete coaching overhaul has on players. We had tensions for several years within the playing group post-succession that negatively impacted our onfield performance.

Malthouse cultivated a culture, with its flaws, but one that bound the playing group tightly. Don't all teams aspire to have a playing group gel? Ours didn't only gel, they were as tight as Hawthorn's playing group is today. That played a huge role in our success, and that was essentially ripped apart by the imposed succession plan.

Of course performance is going to be affected by that, and it is an aspect that can't be negated.

By retaining our stars and a stable football department, we could've then opted for tweaks to the list through clever trading, recruiting to ensure we remained up the top, which is what Hawthorn has successfully managed to do post-2011 and it's paid dividends.

We unnecessarily caused upheaval and internal turmoil at a time when we were flying in the skies. But what's done is done, and being a Collingwood supporter means supporting your team even if you don't agree with some decisions. I support Bucks today, support the direction we're headed in, but that won't change my opinion that the succession plan - at that time - was a massive f**k up.

Yep pretty much sums it up. It was pure idiocy to change things when we were flying. It hard enough to get to the top but to jump off when your their will go down in history as a MASSIVE self inflicted mistake.

 

[Bay Pie]

Some of the youngsters from 2010 premiership players. Blair, Macaffer and Goldsack. All good solid foot soldiers. Have any improved from that time. Not for me.

Didak never recovered that 2010 form, even in 2011. He was a deadset gun with lethal kicking. A massive loss.

Jolly scrapped together some good games in 2010 & 2011 but by end of 2012 his body looked shot.

Ball doing his knee in round 2 2012 and failing to cover the ground like he did in 2010 & 2011, post op, left a big hole.

Yep, we traded out players for good draft picks in a calculated risk to reload/rebuild.

For me, our 2009 season reflects where we were without Ball and Jolly. 2012 onwards the same. We all know how good Didak was at his best but he never recovered from the pec issue and that includes 2011.

While highlighting these 6 players, to me, says we didn't have the cattle to be premiers without trading early picks to top up. I believe the players that remained needed more than a few top-ups to climb the hill again. The club opted for this. I just fail to see how we could handle Hawthorn in their present form of the past few years. We lost to them when at our best in 2010 and just scrapped over the line in the 2011 PF.

Yes, it was a list management decision to trade out players for early picks and naturally when you trade away your experienced players for draft picks, no matter how high, it'll take time to climb back up again, and you'll take some hits in the short term.

The current generation just never went through the mid-80's and mid 90's to realise that what we are seeing at the moment is far from bad. The club has a clear plan, that it must stick too, and forget the new generations voice, of wanting everything now.

If you build it, they will come.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

Yep pretty much sums it up. It was pure idiocy to change things when we were flying. It hard enough to get to the top but to jump off when your their will go down in history as a MASSIVE self inflicted mistake.

Kodak says 'Hi'

 

[Markfs]

i think we should lock this thread.... it was a mistake

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

i think we should lock this thread.... it was a mistake

Please tell me that I didn't tip you over the edge with that reference to Kodak...

 

[Markfs]

Please tell me that I didn't tip you over the edge with that reference to Kodak...

im a sensitive guy.

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

im a sensitive guy.

This thread must be closed to end the misery.

Why don't you start a thread about your scrapbooking?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The diffrence that helped us win a flag were Jolly Ball and to a lesser extent Leigh Brown...and add Tarrant and Krakouer to that list in 2011. You could also add Medhurst who is unlucky to not be a premiership player. These guys were all recruited late in their careers. We got them at the right time but for only a short time. Pretty much straight away after winning the flag it was back to square one with our rucks and with our inside clearance players.

OP is spot on. Only Shaw and Beams are losses in my opinion, and the replacements we have got for these guys (Adams Greenwood DeGoey Crisp) are good long termers. Thomas has proven so far to be physically ruined and Wellingham took a long time to turn his career around. Dawes was a good sell.

 

[Maggie5]

i think we should lock this thread.... it was a mistake

Actually, I think that some of your points were well made.
Sadly, some posters will still not open their eyes and mind.

 

[Markfs]

Actually, I think that some of your points were well made.
Sadly, some posters will still not open their eyes and mind.

well its a complicated subject and it's hard to isolate one point.... it occupied my time yesterday when I was looking to avoid work so its served its purpose

 

[Markfs]

This thread must be closed to end the misery.

Why don't you start a thread about your scrapbooking?

i was going to start a thread called "The Best 22 threads at BF"

 

[WalterBlaknWhte]

i was going to start a thread called "The Best 22 threads at BF"

Meta-thread!

 

[jmac70]

i think we should lock this thread.... it was a mistake

Sure was.

 

[jmac70]

Yep pretty much sums it up. It was pure idiocy to change things when we were flying. It hard enough to get to the top but to jump off when your their will go down in history as a MASSIVE self inflicted mistake.

The succession plan was agreed to in 2009, not 2011. Mick cost us the 2011 flag because he allowed his bitterness to infect the playing group. Had he accepted that his time as coach was drawing to a close he could have gone out as a Collingwood legend. We all saw how good Mick's coaching was when he returned to Carlton. Clearly his coaching ability had declined and this supports the decision by the club in 2009 to devise an exit strategy. Bucks is by far a better coach.

 

[Markfs]

Sure was.

well you can do your bit by trying to control your urge to post here...

 

[mike123]

Gotta say I have a polar opposite view of the 2012 season. Our preseason was a write off. Krak and Cafferkey did ACLs. Fas who was planned to go to the midfield did his foot and only played 3 games for the year. Didak missed a lot of footy. Tarrant and Leon had gone. Nathan Brown was still recovering from an ACL. Luke Ball and Keefe would do their ACLs early on. There were also a fair few other injuries during the year. Daisy was hobbled but didn't miss many. Nick Maxwell had issues etc etc

2010-11 we were extremely settled on the injury front. We entered round 1 2012 with 3 debutants in the team , 3 guys who had played less than 10 career games and Marty Clarke who hadn't played for 2 years. Up against the Hawks still spewing about their PF loss. That's an extraordinary position to find a team coming off last 2 GFs and a flag. Tough coaching start. When we lost in round 3 to Carlton with Ben Reid out in the 1st Q then Ball gone in the 2nd with his ACL we were rock bottom. Blues were flag favs after that haha.

If you say we played without passion in 2012 you must have missed the next 10 rounds. Finish round 13 and we were 11-2, on top of the ladder and equal flag favs. This with still with ongoing major injury losses. Flat team devoid of passion. Do you remember round 9 in Adelaide. Crows were 7:1, on top of ladder and flying. Port, Sydney, Geel and Carl were their 4 previous scalps. We were injury battered, lost Keefe with an ACL so had 1 tall defender left. Daisy had his last great moment at Collingwood when he completely shut out Danger 1:1. A win against the odds on their dung heap. Has always been a great match to remember,a stand out

Yes we were eventually over run over. Injuries, JMac, the funeral 2 days before Syd PF. MM and Eddie going at each other from the sidelines, none of that helped. One of Bucks great moments really was to have got so much out of that team. All our small forwards from 2011 were essentially rendered useless . Leon and Taz gone. Ball, Krak, Keefe and Caff ACLs. Brown still out with his ACL. MM wouldn't have got us a flag that year with those losses. I am sure of that.

I think that was the year after, in 2012 didn't fas kick 28 goals. And Tarrant still played in 2012/

 

[jmac70]

well you can do your bit by trying to control your urge to post here...

I'm treating this thread as my holiday house. I will return to the Buckley Hate thread during the season.

 

[Krueger]

The succession plan was agreed to in 2009, not 2011. Mick cost us the 2011 flag because he allowed his bitterness to infect the playing group. Had he accepted that his time as coach was drawing to a close he could have gone out as a Collingwood legend. We all saw how good Mick's coaching was when he returned to Carlton. Clearly his coaching ability had declined and this supports the decision by the club in 2009 to devise an exit strategy. Bucks is by far a better coach.

I wont bother arguing about the succession plan, its been done to death. As for your last sentence can I ask you why is Buckley a better coach? We have gone backwards every year under his reign. Out gameplan has been questioned, player management questioned, huge list and staff turnovers, culture issues and god knows what else. If he is a far better coach now what will he be if we make the finals? The next incarnation of Jock McHale?

We dont agree on much but that line is utterly unbelievable.

 

[ThePhantom777]

Some of the youngsters from 2010 premiership players. Blair, Macaffer and Goldsack. All good solid foot soldiers. Have any improved from that time. Not for me.

Didak never recovered that 2010 form, even in 2011. He was a deadest gun with lethal kicking. A massive loss.

Jolly scrapped together some good games in 2010 & 2011 but by end of 2012 his body looked shot.

Ball doing his knee in round 2 2012 and failing to cover the ground like he did in 2010 & 2011, post op, left a big hole.

Yep, we traded out players for good draft picks in a calculated risk to reload/rebuild.

For me, our 2009 season reflects where we were without Ball and Jolly. 2012 onwards the same. We all know how good Didak was at his best but he never recovered from the pec issue and that includes 2011.

While highlighting these 6 players, to me, says we didn't have the cattle to be premiers without trading early picks to top up. I believe the players that remained needed more than a few top-ups to climb the hill again. The club opted for this. I just fail to see how we could handle Hawthorn in their present form of the past few years. We lost to them when at our best in 2010 and just scrapped over the line in the 2011 PF.

Yes, it was a list management decision to trade out players for early picks and naturally when you trade away your experienced players for draft picks, no matter how high, it'll take time to climb back up again, and you'll take some hits in the short term.

The current generation just never went through the mid-80's and mid 90's to realise that what we are seeing at the moment as far from bad. The club has a clear plan, that it must stick too, and forget the new generations voice, of wanting everything now.

If you build it, they will come.

Yep, and I would rather have sustained success than one taste of the premiership cup every 20 years or more.

 

[Maggie5]

I wont bother arguing about the succession plan, its been done to death. As for your last sentence can I ask you why is Buckley a better coach? We have gone backwards every year under his reign. Out gameplan has been questioned, player management questioned, huge list and staff turnovers, culture issues and god knows what else. If he is a far better coach now what will he be if we make the finals? The next incarnation of Jock McHale?

We dont agree on much but that line is utterly unbelievable.

I believe Carlton are desperate for new supporters, why don't you try them?

 

[Gone Critical]

I think that was the year after, in 2012 didn't fas kick 28 goals. And Tarrant still played in 2012/

Correct , thanks for fixing that for me.

 

[jmac70]

I wont bother arguing about the succession plan, its been done to death. As for your last sentence can I ask you why is Buckley a better coach? We have gone backwards every year under his reign. Out gameplan has been questioned, player management questioned, huge list and staff turnovers, culture issues and god knows what else. If he is a far better coach now what will he be if we make the finals? The next incarnation of Jock McHale?

We dont agree on much but that line is utterly unbelievable.

I am saying that Bucks is a better coach now than Mick.

I don't accept that we have gone backwards. On the contrary, I think we have gone forwards. The list has been rebuilt and is better now than when Bucks took over. The gameplan has been shown to work against the top sides and is on the right path. List turnover has been significant because of the rebuild, we have retained almost all required players. I'm not sure who you are referring to in respect to player management and I don't see any issues with the culture now.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The succession plan was agreed to in 2009, not 2011. Mick cost us the 2011 flag because he allowed his bitterness to infect the playing group. Had he accepted that his time as coach was drawing to a close he could have gone out as a Collingwood legend. We all saw how good Mick's coaching was when he returned to Carlton. Clearly his coaching ability had declined and this supports the decision by the club in 2009 to devise an exit strategy. Bucks is by far a better coach.

Mick made mistakes at the selection table in 2011 and some position errors on game day and additionally we had a couple of key injuries at the wrong time and met one of the great teams of the modern era. I dont buy in to the bitterness debate (he's alwas been bitter!!!) .

But one thing is true....he was getting too long in the tooth for the game and was phased out at the right time.

And yes....Bucks now is a better coach than Malthouse now. He has a way to go to be as good as Malthouse at the prime of his career though

 

[Krueger]

I believe Carlton are desperate for new supporters, why don't you try them?

I see you changed your avatar.......... 1 embarrassing thing fixed but plenty to go. You might clear the slate this century.............