The Wine thread

[Sanders]

Not my assertion. I've given you a link to an article by a reputable expert. Can give you a bunch of others if you like, that was just the first one to pop up on Google.

That's the point. You were talking about something you claimed to know about, and when challenged to name names you had to google.

if you know that these top world producers X,Y,Z all do something (as you claimed) then you should be able to cite your experience with and knowledge of X Y Z.

Who are these top burgundian producers who innoculate their best wines?

ah heck it, if you had the first clue you wouldn't have needed to google it

What have you got to refute it? Other than your own assertion that it's wrong?

Refute what? An article about CALIFORNIAN wine that outlines a number of the very best producers who do the opposite of your claims?

Obviously you don't know any of the estates listed in that article (I do), but I'll give you a couple of things:

Paul Draper may be the most highly respected winemaker in all of America, and unquestionably one of the best in the world. Former decanter man of the year incidentally. his Monte Bello is one the world's top cabernets.

Marcassin & Kistler... Lets just say in californian terms they are the equivalent of Giaconda & Leeuwin chardonnays only much better & much rarer and more expensive

Franciscan is more McGuigan.

If you want to make an argument that top estates do something and quote franciscan as an example, and refer to something where ridge, kistler & marcassin do the opposite well then...

What next? Jacobs Creek over Mount Mary; Yellow tail over Bass Phillip?

You might have also noted these quotes

Draper stresses the importance of the vineyard, “It’s almost as though you need a distinctive quality and character in a vineyard for the use of native yeast to be worthwhile. Low pH’s, sound ripeness, good tannin and high acidity give you the natural protection you need to succeed far more often with natural yeast. Conversely, the more average the quality of the vineyard, i.e. where the vineyard is clearly going to be for use in blending and not in single vineyard wines and in warmer regions with higher yields, the natural yeast do not seem to work as well. It’s certainly less clear that an inoculated fermentation wouldn’t do as well.”

So natural ferments work best with high quality sites, and make no difference with s**t fruit - per Paul freaking Draper.

I don't need to refute your article, i just needed to read it - shame you didn't, or just didn't understand it.

But while we're here:

. This quality factor, coupled with the fact that the majority of winemakers feel these methods make their craft more interesting and challenging assures that the use of wild yeast will continue to grow in the production of super premium wines.

And remember we're just talking california here.

Bordeaux and much of Europe practice inoculated fermentations. The exceptions are some of the small estates in Burgundy and the Rhone who use native yeast in most years.

Even your article says that this isn't used in burgundy.

I can say my personal, extensive experience is that the very best producers in burgundy are either organic/biodynamic or in process of converting to, and would never dream of using anything but natural yeasts

You will not find a single top estate in all of chateauneuf du pape, who does anything different either.


David Ramey, Winemaker at Rudd Estate, traces his involvement in wild yeast, “When I came back from France after spending the harvest of 1989, I found myself thinking about why it had been so common for so many years in Europe and not used at all in California , so I was inclined towards experimentation. And shortly after that I tasted some experiments done by Bill Dyer who was then at Sterling and by Helen Turley at Peter Michael and found the same kind of things I later found in my experimentation - texture, subtlety and finesse.”

Rudd is a super premium estate, Helen Turley is a superstar and Peter Michael makes a cabernet (les pavots) as good as any Paulliac.

In that entire article, which you clearly did not read or understand, is not one single example of a top producer using anything other than natural ferments. Not one - but lots of the super premium elite doing just that. Maybe they're just "eurosnobs" too??

You tried to use google to compensate for your own lack of knowledge, and couldn't even do that.

Stick to industrial, generic quality wines if that's what you like.

That said Feel free to share your own experiences of the wines you drink, observations, etc like a normal person; but stop pretending to be something/someone you're not.

Time to move on, i'm done

 

[Sanders]

sums up my thoughts exactly

I happen to love californian wines, particularly Napa Cab (from the richer Oakville or rutherford bench) or the higher altitude Calistoga - and despite the high octane fruit, they have grip, savour & multi-faceted textures.

This is what torbreck doesn't have for me - but the same people who buy Rudd, Harlan, Dalla Valle napa cabs, are usually the same one's buying torbreck's top end (or two hands, ringland or some of glaetzers stuff)

 

[J_Moore]

I'm curious as to how wine folk often accumulate what seems to be vast bodies of authoritative knowledge about all styles of wine from all over the globe.

As far as my interests and passions go, I could only really claim expertise on a few quite specific areas (let's say, for instance, that as far as AFL goes, I'd only pretend to speak with much authority on the Swans) but I've known people who will confidently tell me they could find me the best wines from the Casablanca to La Mancha.

There are so many ******* wines. Where does one begin?

 

[Sanders]

I'm curious as to how wine folk often accumulate what seems to be vast bodies of authoritative knowledge about all styles of wine from all over the globe.

Fair call

Partly interest whether personal and/or professional.

The biggest key is location. Those in and around certain wine producing tend to be very insular and short sighted beyond their small fisbowl, and it doesn't matter whether that is the maipo in chile, Barossa or Bordeaux. People tend to only know and drink local wines, and often won't know much about them.

But in cosmopolitan market hubs, where you have many regions coming together with importers, retailers, sommeliers & specialist press then you have far greater plurality. Whether in new york, london, chicago etc. there are many tastings, opportunities to visit producers, range on specialist independent retailers or supermarkets.

For example Waitrose in the UK employs 5 masters of wine on its buying team, which gives greater knowledge and a spread of informed opinion across different areas to debate and thrash out ideas

The other big impact is the particular characteristics of the market, where one distribution channel is largely dominated by 1 or 2 wholesalers who might have particular interests. For example when I lived in california, there was a greater range of Txakoli wines (light, low alcohol, aromatic wines with a salty, sherberty tang - utterly delicious and moreish in the heat) in los angeles than i have ever seen in europe, short of getaria & san sebastian in Spain (where its from). Now this light fun wine, nothing serious - it makes no sense to have so many represented, but the local wholesalers clearly like it. I guarantee therefore that many people in LA have a greater understanding of this style than virtually anywhere else in the world. Just because of random happenstance.

But mostly its about the market you are in. if you are in a good shop, and you want a fresh light medium bodied aromatic white wine. Nothing too expensive, a fresh and easy glugger.

In say Australia, you might be presented with a series of options, sauvignon blanc or riesling say, from a range of producers and regions. All a bit different in style and climate, but in the greater picture largely the same. There will be people talking about the various sub climate dfferences between the piccadilly valley in the adelaide hills, versus say Denmark in the south west corner of WA - but in a global sense the differences are very small. I'm talking generally here.

If you were in an equivalent in NY or London, you would option of specific producers and their styles from around the world. Those same wines would be filed under modern new world, and there would be a couple of options only, maybe someone likes tasmanian riesling so that's offered, next to maybe something from martinborough in NZ, alongside a gavi from piedmonte, vinho verde from portugal, txakoli, sauvignon du touraine, sancerre, chablis, picpoul di pinet, muscadet or white bordeaux from france. The difference between modern, clean new world wines are relatively small compared with the stylistic choice between vinho verde and an oaked sancerre.

Your whim or taste that day would be serviced very differently depending on what market you are in.

The import taxes in OZ are also a big problem.

The other thing is that travel and tourism plays a big part; if you are taking in a family holiday in Tuscany, near montalcino say, you will be in brunello territory so you will drink plenty of them that week.

lastly you have to care. if this doesn't interest you, it won't stick

 

[Macca19]

I'm curious as to how wine folk often accumulate what seems to be vast bodies of authoritative knowledge about all styles of wine from all over the globe.

As far as my interests and passions go, I could only really claim expertise on a few quite specific areas (let's say, for instance, that as far as AFL goes, I'd only pretend to speak with much authority on the Swans) but I've known people who will confidently tell me they could find me the best wines from the Casablanca to La Mancha.

There are so many ******* wines. Where does one begin?

Its like any interest or hobby, sourcing information and getting involved is key. If someone had an interest in wine and wanted to learn more, do a wine evaluation course...maybe one that specialises in overseas wines, find some good (normally independent) wine stores that hold regular tastings, join a wine club, buy some books etc. Its easier than it seems to find out about and try a lot of overseas wines.

 

[Sanders]

Few odds and sods last night

D’oliveiras Boal Madeira, Colheita 1984
Tangy, salty rancio olives, nuts and figs. Lovely freshness, with clean moderate + acidity, palpable mid palate texture and moderate sweetness. Probably a bit more luscious and sweeter than most boals but for the better, still retaining the typical length and extension. Could have guzzled all night.

Barbeito 5 year old Malmsey Madeira.
Sweeter, more toffee, almond, figgy notes. Sits a little heavier in the mouth, which is filled with brandied spirit, and glycerin. More my style of Madeira, but clearly a lower quality than the colheita

Guy Amiot Chassagne Montrachet ‘Les Caillerets’ 1er cru Blanc 2002
A little closed at first, but with air, opens up to a full green gold aroma, accented by oak and lactic notes. Medium bodied on the palate, with a mealy, oatmeal texture typical of chassagne. Obvious lees notes (batonnage?) mixing faded vanilla, with lemony, tangy acidity. There is depth and definition to the intense fruit, that carries authority and flavour without weight. Very classy, but still a little time needed to completely relax all the elements.

Domaine Haut Bergey, Pessac Leognan, Rouge 2000
Instantly recognisable, as classic, complex claret. Just starting to turn to tertiary aromas, with earth, blackcurrent, green capsicum, and tobacco.
This is light and full at the same time, there is an energy driving it from the nervy intense core of fruit, with layers of texture, and the crisp, grainy tannins typical of Pessac. Just starting to enter its drinking window, a superb bottle of Bordeaux from a great, great vintage. Refreshing, with lots of personality and aromatic interest. I could drink a magnum of this.

 

[J_Moore]

Its like any interest or hobby, sourcing information and getting involved is key. If someone had an interest in wine and wanted to learn more, do a wine evaluation course...maybe one that specialises in overseas wines, find some good (normally independent) wine stores that hold regular tastings, join a wine club, buy some books etc. Its easier than it seems to find out about and try a lot of overseas wines.

Sanders, it's not so much the access issues that I can't wrap my head around, but the actual physical act of getting through so much wine.

Given the quantity of producers out there, and the variability of a product even within a single vineyard, it seems a sisyphean task to even work your way through a single region. Added to that is the quantity of wine you need to get through to get a proper appreciation/understanding/memory of the wine, which throws up cost issues for all but the luckiest. I assume at least a few bottles of the same wine is needed before you can speak with some authority on a particular drop, and then you'd want to repeat the process across a few different years?

I also don't understand how people who aren't spitting it back into a bucket aren't permanently pissed.

 

[Sanders]

Sanders, it's not so much the access issues that I can't wrap my head around, but the actual physical act of getting through so much wine.

It is cumulative weight of experience, research, a lot of drinking (sorry tasting). It takes time.

Given the quantity of producers out there, and the variability of a product even within a single vineyard, it seems a sisyphean task to even work your way through a single region. Added to that is the quantity of wine you need to get through to get a proper appreciation/understanding/memory of the wine, which throws up cost issues for all but the luckiest. I assume at least a few bottles of the same wine is needed before you can speak with some authority on a particular drop, and then you'd want to repeat the process across a few different years?

You'd be amazed at what you accomplish on holiday, do some planning, schedule some visits etc.

Wine regions are often lovely places to visit

On top of that its practise and repetition. For example I've been tasting burgundy out of barrel every year, en primeurs and at the domaines, for a good couple of decades now - and you have to accept it takes a while to make sense of.

You target areas & growers you like, but the prime reason it gets manageable is developing an image in the minds eye of what you expect from each climat or village; so you have an idea of what you are looking for.

Savigny les beaune is fairly straight forward, but light, pretty, feminine and floral burgundy for example. lovely early drinking juice. Its usually soft, moderate tannins, with verve and style

Suddenly you see something with more grip, energy, intensity of fruit, but its all where it should be; thats a sign of good producer, good vintage and/or site. The same in reverse, its heavy, a bit oaky, no real fruit definition - and its modern or clumsy... You're thinking this isn't right, are they trying to make more out of this, than there is to work with.

Its really about having a structure to process a lot of information into, and a context.

I.e. is this serious, ambitious kit, or vin de soif (light, refreshing beverage to hoof down) for example.

What are they trying to do.

For example i hate cheap bordeaux trying to sex itself up with clumsy oak the fruit quality can't handle; much prefer it where something is easy, balanced, harmonious. Proper booze not look at me dogmatic show off stuff.

I also don't understand how people who aren't spitting it back into a bucket aren't permanently pissed.

Who said they're not?

Even spitting still causes plenty to be absorbed into the gums.

 

[Macca19]

Sanders, it's not so much the access issues that I can't wrap my head around, but the actual physical act of getting through so much wine.

Given the quantity of producers out there, and the variability of a product even within a single vineyard, it seems a sisyphean task to even work your way through a single region. Added to that is the quantity of wine you need to get through to get a proper appreciation/understanding/memory of the wine, which throws up cost issues for all but the luckiest. I assume at least a few bottles of the same wine is needed before you can speak with some authority on a particular drop, and then you'd want to repeat the process across a few different years?

I also don't understand how people who aren't spitting it back into a bucket aren't permanently pissed.

I guess its no different to liking music. If you like a genre of music then youve got hundreds of bands, thousands of albums to go through, but in the end you just do. Doesnt happen overnight, but over the course of a few years you get through it.

Wine is the same. You cant expect to know everything straight away, but over time you get to know the different varieties, different wineries, different regions, different vintages etc.

I think its pretty easy to go through tasting maybe 500 different wines a year just by going through say 2 bottles a week, plus 2 or 3 different tasting events/food & wine festivals, plus maybe one or two long weekends to a wine region. It all adds up surprisingly quickly.

 

[Caesar]

That's the point. You were talking about something you claimed to know about, and when challenged to name names you had to google.

I never claimed to have first-hand knowledge, I merely said it was a fact I was aware of. Since I know that the word of an anonymous person posting on an internet forum carries no weight, I googled it to find something with a bit more credibility to show you that supports the statement. There it is in black and white:

Another outgrowth of the traditional methods “fashion,” is the familiar winemaker refrain that, ‘I never fine/filter/inoculate’, when in private, many - including some of Burgundy’s most highly regarded producers - admit to the use of these practices.

A statement by a respected wine writer and expert. You're saying that statement is incorrect. Can you provide any evidence that it is incorrect?

Bordeaux and much of Europe practice inoculated fermentations. The exceptions are some of the small estates in Burgundy and the Rhone who use native yeast in most years.

Even your article says that this isn't used in burgundy.

Do you not understand the meaning of the word 'some'?

I've got no particular objection to wines produced with wild yeast. Lots of them are very nice, and I am sure that in many cases it adds to the character of the wine. I just object to the faddish 'traditional methods' attitude whereby snobs such as yourself turn your nose up at everything that doesn't meet a set of specific criteria.

And regardless of what you think of my personal knowledge of wine, there are a large number of very highly respected wine critics around the world who hold similar views. Highly regarded producers too, apparently.

 

[J_Moore]

Gentlemen, I propose a balloon race around the world.

 

[Norwegian Blue]

Gentlemen, I propose a balloon race around the world.

Yeah, but Sanders will consult his first edition of Couvier's seminal 1876 study on balloonology. He'll then regail us with memories of his summer holiday in 1967 when he visited Burgmunger's balloon farm in Nice (just out of town, shady acerage, halfway up a south facing hill). And you *know* that only just last week he tried three different varietals of balloon of widely differing complexities and subtleties.

Caesar will google "balloon".

 

[Sanders]

Yeah, but Sanders will consult his first edition of Couvier's seminal 1876 study on balloonology. He'll then regail us with memories of his summer holiday in 1967 when he visited Burgmunger's balloon farm in Nice (just out of town, shady acerage, halfway up a south facing hill). And you *know* that only just last week he tried three different varietals of balloon of widely differing complexities and subtleties.

Caesar will google "balloon".

I genuinely laughed loudly

 

[Macca19]

So im off in a months time for my debut trip to Margaret River. Anyone want to put forth some recommendations for some smaller places that have impressed? Ive got Ashbrook, Brookland, Cullen, Leeuwin, Moss Wood, Sandalford, Moss Brothers, Palmer, Vasse Felix, Voyager, Howard Park & Woodlands marked as must visits, but wouldnt mind some opinions on some smaller wineries

 

[Sanders]

Lemme ask an importer friend next week.

Just At airport waiting to go ballooning

Heading off to the chateauneuf du pape for a few days visiting estates & truffle hunting

 

[Copeland]

I'm curious as to how wine folk often accumulate what seems to be vast bodies of authoritative knowledge about all styles of wine from all over the globe.

As far as my interests and passions go, I could only really claim expertise on a few quite specific areas (let's say, for instance, that as far as AFL goes, I'd only pretend to speak with much authority on the Swans) but I've known people who will confidently tell me they could find me the best wines from the Casablanca to La Mancha.

There are so many ******* wines. Where does one begin?

I can't even find a basic wine tasting course in Mildura.

 

[Sanders]

So im off in a months time for my debut trip to Margaret River. Anyone want to put forth some recommendations for some smaller places that have impressed? Ive got Ashbrook, Brookland, Cullen, Leeuwin, Moss Wood, Sandalford, Moss Brothers, Palmer, Vasse Felix, Voyager, Howard Park & Woodlands marked as must visits, but wouldnt mind some opinions on some smaller wineries

I asked a MW importer buddy who has guest judged many OZ wine shows the following:

By the way have someone in oz who wants to go to millionaires row i.e. margaret river. Are there any small, quality, under the radar producers out there? Or just off radar?

And his response:

Ha! That's the problem with Margs, it suffers from the Napa effect. High land prices and rich absentee owners. Woodlands are small and make v smart Cabernet. Hmm, to be honest after that it just comes down to preference. I think Cullen, Vasse Felix, Howard Park and Cape Mentelle are doing good things at the moment. Voyager and Leeuwin not so much. The real exciting off the radar stuff is all happening down in Great Southern, places like Denmark, Albany and Mount Barker

 

[Macca19]

We're going through Denmark, Albany & Pemberton as well

 

[JimDocker]

So im off in a months time for my debut trip to Margaret River. Anyone want to put forth some recommendations for some smaller places that have impressed? Ive got Ashbrook, Brookland, Cullen, Leeuwin, Moss Wood, Sandalford, Moss Brothers, Palmer, Vasse Felix, Voyager, Howard Park & Woodlands marked as must visits, but wouldnt mind some opinions on some smaller wineries

I would recommend that when you are visiting these places, choose Voyager for lunch or dinner. Beautiful restaurant in there. Pricey though.

Happs is in Dunsborough, just outside of Busselton as you head down to Margs. Well worth a visit. Very nice Cab Merlots, Merlots and an excellent Pinot Noir. Also some nice whites. Verdelho and Viognier. The wines are reasonably priced. Some nice pottery for sale too.

Gralyn Estate is on Caves Rd in Willyabrup which is part of Margaret River. Some beautiful Shiraz, and Cab Shiraz available only at the cellar door. These start at around $75 per bottle though so not a cheap option. Despite the expense, I have found the staff to be very willing to offer tastes and not snobby at all.

Further down South, try Alkoomi in Frankland River and West Cape Howe.

 

[Lach72]

So im off in a months time for my debut trip to Margaret River. Anyone want to put forth some recommendations for some smaller places that have impressed? Ive got Ashbrook, Brookland, Cullen, Leeuwin, Moss Wood, Sandalford, Moss Brothers, Palmer, Vasse Felix, Voyager, Howard Park & Woodlands marked as must visits, but wouldnt mind some opinions on some smaller wineries

Blue are quite good.
Love Ashbrook.
Brookland has a nice restaurant on site called Flutes.
Agree with Jim on Happs.

 

[Lach72]

We're going through Denmark, Albany & Pemberton as well

Check out Frankland River.
http://www.franklandestate.com.au/
It;s a drive but worth a look
Olmo's reward and some of the Rieslings are good.

 

[Macca19]

went to: Palmer, Moss Brothers, Vasse Felix, Woodlands, Howard Park, Cullen, Voyager, Sandalford, Xanadu, Stella Bella & then also West Cape Howe. Would have loved to have got to Brookland, Gralyn and a few others but travelling with a <1 year old made it difficult to do any more.

Best wines came from Vasse Felix, Woodlands, Sandalford & Stella Bella. Xanadu, Moss Brothers not far behind. In fact they were all pretty good. Will be buying/bought from most of them. Most things I tried were very nice. Got to try some barrel samplings and pre-released stuff. Organised swaps with a few places. Cullen had some really interesting wines but they gave me the single worst customer service experience ive ever experienced. Was going to have lunch there but ended up walking out. Was laughable.

Chardonnay was the winner. Some really exciting stuff. Also some really delicate sweeter wines tickled my fancy as well, which was a surprise.

Had lunch at Bootleg Brewery which was fantastic. Also had lunch at Voyager. Stunning place. Immaculate grounds. Very very nice lunch. Venison was spot on. Though in their efforts to make it feel like an A-grade French Chateau, I think the staff are a bit cold and robotic.

Simmos IceCream was incredible. As was Gabriel Chocolate. Didnt think much of Marg River Chocolate Company though. Stayed in Dunsborough in an old shack on a secluded beach front. One of the nicest places ive ever visited and would move there tomorrow if I could.

All up loved Margaret River. Right up there with Coonawarra as my favourite wine region to visit now.

 

[JimDocker]

Great to hear Macca !

 

[Sanders]

What happened at Cullen?

 

[JimDocker]

Sad about Voyager. They used to be quite relaxed, but I heard the same criticism of them only last week.