MVP Tommy Boyd - The Grand Final Enigma

[threenewpadlocks]

And even the people saying he's playing badly so far this year or played a bad game... is he? (Well he is, but that's not what I'm getting at).

He's being asked to do a lot more than he has in the past, through rucking and being more mobile around the ground... and he is. There were plenty of games last year that he was a non-factor and shut out of the game (that first loss to Melbourne springs to mind, and that loss to Port where we had to ruck him the entirely of that last quarter just to get to get him involved). That hasn't happened this year. I'd much rather him get his hands on it and drop em rather than not get his hands on them at all.

I still think we're asking him to ruck too much. As much as we want to get him involved in the play he's more likely to dominate a game kicking goals than he is with hitouts to advantage. I mean I get rucking him 20-35% of the game and I can accept that but I think that we've rucked him 40-50% of the game the last two weeks and that's just taking him away from where he's most effective.

 

[immortalmike]

The hyperbole in this thread is embarrassing.
He has a decent to okay game= he's a superstar freak.
He has a poor game= drop him, he'll never make it.

Relax mother****ers, he's a 20 year old developing forward he'll look unco at times and at others he'll look a superstar.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

The more I read this thread, the more I realise that most posters haven't even played senior footy at local level and their understanding of the game reflects this.

Clueless.

 

[NBates]

The more I read this thread, the more I realise that most posters haven't even played senior footy at local level and their understanding of the game reflects this.

Clueless.

Well that would be me, but i have a right to an opinion. I agree with people who say he's only 20 ffs and if you ask me he's had 2 opponents tagging him the first few weeks.....don't know which way it's gonna go for him but i hope for the best and i hope he doesn't read a lot of this board! Think he puts himself under enough pressure in his own head (just my observation)

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[immortalmike]

The more I read this thread, the more I realise that most posters haven't even played senior footy at local level and their understanding of the game reflects this.

Clueless.

Please enlighten us. I'm not being sarcastic (this time ) I would genuinely like to hear your perspective.

 

[bresker]

Even if he isn't in the ruck he was playing so far up the ground that you couldn't call him a full forward, barely a forward at all. His job is to throw himself around and apply pressure. As much midfielder as forward - like everyone else in the team. We don't play traditional footy any more.

He's roughly same age as the Bont, younger than Stringer, but he's playing a more specialized position and is 200cm tall in a side that presses from woe to go

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Please enlighten us. I'm not being sarcastic (this time ) I would genuinely like to hear your perspective.

Many Cats' supporters were negative re Tom Hawkins, and not just for a year or two.

Are they still of that opinion?

Why not? Because he developed mentally and physically, that's why. The more he plays, the more he learns his craft. Just like Tom.
Yeah, We know that Buddy was a gun from the start, but if you start to compare every young forward with Buddy (ok, ok, I know there are acouple of early developers) you're going to delist many of them well before they're ready.

Same with ruckmen. Scotty Wynd picked up a Brownlow at 22, so why aren't all ruckmen just like him? Because everyone develops differently.

There must have been reasons why Toyd was the universal number one draft choice. So was B. Goddard - how many Saints supporters slagged off about him in the early days? He really didn't come good until about year 4 - not in terms of consistency, anyway.

Travis Cloke was pretty ordinary early on. Why didn't Collingwood trade him for a pie & coke deal?

Bugger me, Toyd is competing hard. He's bringing the ball to ground in the forward line, and that's something that really pleases me. Except for when BBB was up front, easy intercept marks and backline clearances were just about our biggest problem. Have a look at last week's game against the Hawks and you'll see what I mean about Boyd.

Sack him now if you like, but I'd prefer for him to be developed by our coaching staff. They really like him as a player!



Anyone still want Wood or Dickson delisted?

 

[1961grandfinal]

He is still young but the natives are restless. A mate compared him to ljizz last night, mmmmmmmmmm

Agility and strength are his main issues. He didnt need them much when he was young as he was the monster mash but am sure that Bev will be onto this and improvement will come. He is the key to our success on the big grounds in the big games.

 

[Easton Thighs]

Spoiler: 56k modem warning

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Bev has been playing Boyd in the ruck to develop his follow up efforts. When you ruck you must follow up every contest with another effort. It may be a tap then block or a ruck contest followed by a tackle. Or it might be secondary ball ups.

He then goes forward and plays on defenders who have been zoning off and playing team defence on forwards. He doesn't have the tank to burn off opponents and get separation from his man on the lead. If he's playing on a bloke who's rucking and then going back to play key defence, you would probably see that separation people are talking about.

It's not about Boyd being as good as he can now, it's about him being as good as he can over his career. At the moment it's mutually beneficial to the team and to him to play him ruck/forward. When he plays as an exclusive forward we will more than certainly have to play a Campbell or Minson in the team to give Roughy a spell.

When he's ready and developed that tank, and those efforts he's going to have all those new skills to add to the skills he has as a forward inside 50. That doesn't mean he's going to be a superstar but it is going to give him every chance.

Another issue naturally bigger blokes face is coming up against bigger bodies. Boyd has always been bigger than pretty much every one he's played against. Now he's up against seasoned bodies and he's doing this with a workload much larger than most key position players his age.

Think Daniher when he first entered the scene. He'd take possession of the footy and try to break tackles, in the past he was playing kids much smaller and crashing through those tackles and feeding off or kicking goals. He was constantly getting tackled and wrapped up, much to the displeasure of many Essendon supporters. It takes time to adapt, change your game and Essendon are starting to see the fruits of change now.

These things take time and a fair bit of it. His game against Hawthorn was extremely encouraging. He contested and he positively influenced every one of those contests. People will look at the stats and see not a lot, but Bev would have been looking at his influence. He was ordinary on Saturday, but Geez the shit you read here...

 

[immortalmike]

Many Cats' supporters were negative re Tom Hawkins, and not just for a year or two.

Are they still of that opinion?

Why not? Because he developed mentally and physically, that's why. The more he plays, the more he learns his craft. Just like Tom.
Yeah, We know that Buddy was a gun from the start, but if you start to compare every young forward with Buddy (ok, ok, I know there are acouple of early developers) you're going to delist many of them well before they're ready.

Same with ruckmen. Scotty Wynd picked up a Brownlow at 22, so why aren't all ruckmen just like him? Because everyone develops differently.

There must have been reasons why Toyd was the universal number one draft choice. So was B. Goddard - how many Saints supporters slagged off about him in the early days? He really didn't come good until about year 4 - not in terms of consistency, anyway.

Travis Cloke was pretty ordinary early on. Why didn't Collingwood trade him for a pie & coke deal?

Bugger me, Toyd is competing hard. He's bringing the ball to ground in the forward line, and that's something that really pleases me. Except for when BBB was up front, easy intercept marks and backline clearances were just about our biggest problem. Have a look at last week's game against the Hawks and you'll see what I mean about Boyd.

Sack him now if you like, but I'd prefer for him to be developed by our coaching staff. They really like him as a player!



Anyone still want Wood or Dickson delisted?

Bev has been playing Boyd in the ruck to develop his follow up efforts. When you ruck you must follow up every contest with another effort. It may be a tap then block or a ruck contest followed by a tackle. Or it might be secondary ball ups.

He then goes forward and plays on defenders who have been zoning off and playing team defence on forwards. He doesn't have the tank to burn off opponents and get separation from his man on the lead. If he's playing on a bloke who's rucking and then going back to play key defence, you would probably see that separation people are talking about.

It's not about Boyd being as good as he can now, it's about him being as good as he can over his career. At the moment it's mutually beneficial to the team and to him to play him ruck/forward. When he plays as an exclusive forward we will more than certainly have to play a Campbell or Minson in the team to give Roughy a spell.

When he's ready and developed that tank, and those efforts he's going to have all those new skills to add to the skills he has as a forward inside 50. That doesn't mean he's going to be a superstar but it is going to give him every chance.

Another issue naturally bigger blokes face is coming up against bigger bodies. Boyd has always been bigger than pretty much every one he's played against. Now he's up against seasoned bodies and he's doing this with a workload much larger than most key position players his age.

Think Daniher when he first entered the scene. He'd take possession of the footy and try to break tackles, in the past he was playing kids much smaller and crashing through those tackles and feeding off or kicking goals. He was constantly getting tackled and wrapped up, much to the displeasure of many Essendon supporters. It takes time to adapt, change your game and Essendon are starting to see the fruits of change now.

These things take time and a fair bit of it. His game against Hawthorn was extremely encouraging. He contested and he positively influenced every one of those contests. People will look at the stats and see not a lot, but Bev would have been looking at his influence. He was ordinary on Saturday, but Geez the shit you read here...

Thanks guys, glad your thoughts echo mine. Although I'd probably stop short at minimizing someone's opinion because they haven't played senior footy (I haven't ) as you may as well shut down the entire board.

 

[JJHunter]

The hyperbole in this thread is embarrassing.
He has a decent to okay game= he's a superstar freak.
He has a poor game= drop him, he'll never make it.

Relax mothergooses, he's a 20 year old developing forward he'll look unco at times and at others he'll look a superstar.

Such a funny post this one.
Alot of people "posting" commentary to complain about the ongoing commentary on Tom Boyd is also a little quirk.

Listen for me I am happy to be patient but happy at the same time to express some concerns.
I'm not silly enough to even bring up his contract - to me thats irrelevant now. We paid that to get him now all I care about is what sort of player he is going to become. You won't hear me going on about $$ cause whats the point in doing so ? I am glad we had a crack at the time and will remain that way no matter the outcome.

I would suggest that almost all guns have shown from the earliest of ages that they can do the basics right in footy.
People like throwing Tom Hawkins out there - so I can use him to say even in his early games he showed he was a decent kick and a good mark.
The basics of footy. It was clear he needed to mature into his footy to get to more contests, be more mobile and build strength against men. all signs of a developing youth.

What concerns me about Boyd is that these are not the only concern I have for him. Building a tank strength and running patterns etc if stuff I can understand. I dont care if he stinks it up the odd game like the weekend also- but what I am looking at to see is "can do the basics well".

Sorry to say and I think even his biggest fans (and I am willing him on believe me) have to admit, he isn't doing these basics well - the basics we are told he was great at as a junior. My biggest concern is his marking.

He has dropped way too many marks that he should have taken - age, maturity, body size all aside - he should have taken aot of the more basic marks, other marks he has taken are double grabbers (he does this alot because of the way he presents his hands to the ball - palms forward).
And he has missed too many shots on goal - I find it funny people saying he was an elite junior kick because he has clearly alreayd missed more shots than he should have.

So if I were to call it at this very early stage Im not confident we have a star on our hands. Not to say he wont be servicebale and play 200, hell Ty Vickery may well do that, just that I dont think we have a monster forward who will kick 60 plus more than once in his career.

 

[BRWB]

Such a funny post this one.
Alot of people "posting" commentary to complain about the ongoing commentary on Tom Boyd is also a little quirk.

Listen for me I am happy to be patient but happy at the same time to express some concerns.
I'm not silly enough to even bring up his contract - to me thats irrelevant now. We paid that to get him now all I care about is what sort of player he is going to become. You won't hear me going on about $$ cause whats the point in doing so ? I am glad we had a crack at the time and will remain that way no matter the outcome.

I would suggest that almost all guns have shown from the earliest of ages that they can do the basics right in footy.
People like throwing Tom Hawkins out there - so I can use him to say even in his early games he showed he was a decent kick and a good mark.
The basics of footy. It was clear he needed to mature into his footy to get to more contests, be more mobile and build strength against men. all signs of a developing youth.

What concerns me about Boyd is that these are not the only concern I have for him. Building a tank strength and running patterns etc if stuff I can understand. I dont care if he stinks it up the odd game like the weekend also- but what I am looking at to see is "can do the basics well".

Sorry to say and I think even his biggest fans (and I am willing him on believe me) have to admit, he isn't doing these basics well - the basics we are told he was great at as a junior. My biggest concern is his marking.

He has dropped way too many marks that he should have taken - age, maturity, body size all aside - he should have taken aot of the more basic marks, other marks he has taken are double grabbers (he does this alot because of the way he presents his hands to the ball - palms forward).
And he has missed too many shots on goal - I find it funny people saying he was an elite junior kick because he has clearly alreayd missed more shots than he should have.

So if I were to call it at this very early stage Im not confident we have a star on our hands. Not to say he wont be servicebale and play 200, hell Ty Vickery may well do that, just that I dont think we have a monster forward who will kick 60 plus more than once in his career.

Agree with everything you've said there.

It may appear a snap judgement but sometimes a whole bunch of concerns can coalesce into a single moment or game.

For me that happened with Boyd on the weekend in the first quarter (so no he wasn't tired). With around 5.45 left on the clock he contested a high ball kicked to his advantage by Adams (who'd just taken a brilliant contested mark) on the wing against Simpson.

On first glance I thought Boyd was outbodied by Simpson. And he reminded me of Will Minson in a marking contest. But then I replayed it about 15 times and realised he bumped Simpson out of the way, but actually missed the ball - just missed it. This was reminiscent of L Jones. Any decent tall marking AFL standard player would and should have marked that ball.

If Jones got his hands to the ball he was ok. Minson on the other hand just had concrete hands. Between them Jones and Minson have been two of our worst contested marks.

Boyd seems to both misjudge the ball and drop chest marks like Jones but also manages to be out bodied and have concrete hands like Minson.

Then we had the infamous falcon - something I've never seen Jones or Minson do.

Boyd is averaging less than one contested mark per game.

I have faith that Boyd will be ok but it's looking like something between Vickery and Tippett rather than the hoped for between Tippett and Hawkins (unless something drastic changes).

My one big cause for hope is not what Boyd has or hasn't done. It's that our recruiters rate him and have been rarely wrong recently.

 

[GreatSouthWest]

Great posts JJS and BRWB. You've highlighted some real basics, with specific examples, that are my concerns with Boyd. Also, you don't have to be 25 y/o or experienced to show some genuine aggression - something Tom seems almost bereft of atm. What's with his arms in the marking contest? They sit there for what seems like a few seconds - almost directing the defenders to the correct position to spoil, which happens time and time again.

 

[MJ_Dogs]

There's no question his junior footy was a lot better than what he is showing atm. And that has nothing to do with playing against kids half his size. He was a terrific mark and kick and even showed this early last year with us and with the Giants. The kid is a natural footballer but he is seriously lacking in confidence at the moment. The concern for me is his aggression and, at present, his confidence, the latter he would have had oodles of as a junior when he dominated....his drop off in form and confidence are correlated. The question is why. Injury? reading the newspapers critiquing him? Trying too hard to follow instructions so not playing naturally? Adjusting to new physique? Adjusting to not being solely a big key forward? I'm not sure what it is as an outsider but if he can address it and start playing confidently, the form will come and he will start to look like what we got him for.

I just hope this isn't an Andrew Bogut scenario. Bogut dominated college ball with his size and excellent 3 point shooting. That's what made him, and at the time, deservedly, the number 1 pick in the nba. However once in the nba system he couldn't rely on his size and superior physique to dominate. He had to learn all the little things - post ups, pivot moves, how to deal with bigger/faster opponents, how to switch etc. all this meant his 3 pt shot, one of his biggest weapons in college, is now virtually non existent as he had to focus on other more important areas of his game. Bogut turned out to be serviceable but not a number 1 pick. I hope this isn't the case for Tom - he's realising he can't rely now on his size and that afl level footy has a lot more going on tactically. Time will tell

 

[BRWB]

To cheer myself up over lunch I took a quick look at this thread created when Hawkins was 22 years old - the year before his break out. Many of the pro and con posts are almost word for word what is in here. The similarities are amazing. I just hope Boyd can reward the club's faith.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/tom-hawkins.798012/page-2

 

[dogzrule]

Agree with everything you've said there.

It may appear a snap judgement but sometimes a whole bunch of concerns can coalesce into a single moment or game.

For me that happened with Boyd on the weekend in the first quarter (so no he wasn't tired). With around 5.45 left on the clock he contested a high ball kicked to his advantage by Adams (who'd just taken a brilliant contested mark) on the wing against Simpson.

On first glance I thought Boyd was outbodied by Simpson. And he reminded me of Will Minson in a marking contest. But then I replayed it about 15 times and realised he bumped Simpson out of the way, but actually missed the ball - just missed it. This was reminiscent of L Jones. Any decent tall marking AFL standard player would and should have marked that ball.

If Jones got his hands to the ball he was ok. Minson on the other hand just had concrete hands. Between them Jones and Minson have been two of our worst contested marks.

Boyd seems to both misjudge the ball and drop chest marks like Jones but also manages to be out bodied and have concrete hands like Minson.

Then we had the infamous falcon - something I've never seen Jones or Minson do.

Boyd is averaging less than one contested mark per game.

I have faith that Boyd will be ok but it's looking like something between Vickery and Tippett rather than the hoped for between Tippett and Hawkins (unless something drastic changes).

My one big cause for hope is not what Boyd has or hasn't done. It's that our recruiters rate him and have been rarely wrong recently.

Boyd certainly has a lot to work on, speaking to a Carlton supporter he was very surprised how easily Sam Rowe (in his words is not an AFL level footballer) was easily able to beat Boyd in a contest.

For me he is not aggressive enough running at the ball or simply mis-judges it and also has a habit of dropping uncontested marks as well at times

When the ball hit him in the head on Saturday, it did look like he was pushed a little into the contest but I question whether he actually keeps his eyes on the ball ?

Lets call him "out of form" at the moment, I cant see him being in the best 22 for too much longer, injury or no injury

 

[immortalmike]

Such a funny post this one.
Alot of people "posting" commentary to complain about the ongoing commentary on Tom Boyd is also a little quirk.

Listen for me I am happy to be patient but happy at the same time to express some concerns.
I'm not silly enough to even bring up his contract - to me thats irrelevant now. We paid that to get him now all I care about is what sort of player he is going to become. You won't hear me going on about $$ cause whats the point in doing so ? I am glad we had a crack at the time and will remain that way no matter the outcome.

I would suggest that almost all guns have shown from the earliest of ages that they can do the basics right in footy.
People like throwing Tom Hawkins out there - so I can use him to say even in his early games he showed he was a decent kick and a good mark.
The basics of footy. It was clear he needed to mature into his footy to get to more contests, be more mobile and build strength against men. all signs of a developing youth.

What concerns me about Boyd is that these are not the only concern I have for him. Building a tank strength and running patterns etc if stuff I can understand. I dont care if he stinks it up the odd game like the weekend also- but what I am looking at to see is "can do the basics well".

Sorry to say and I think even his biggest fans (and I am willing him on believe me) have to admit, he isn't doing these basics well - the basics we are told he was great at as a junior. My biggest concern is his marking.

He has dropped way too many marks that he should have taken - age, maturity, body size all aside - he should have taken aot of the more basic marks, other marks he has taken are double grabbers (he does this alot because of the way he presents his hands to the ball - palms forward).
And he has missed too many shots on goal - I find it funny people saying he was an elite junior kick because he has clearly alreayd missed more shots than he should have.

So if I were to call it at this very early stage Im not confident we have a star on our hands. Not to say he wont be servicebale and play 200, hell Ty Vickery may well do that, just that I dont think we have a monster forward who will kick 60 plus more than once in his career.

Agree with everything except that Hawkins was doing the basics well. He really wasn't and that's exactly why he looked a bust until he was 22.

I don't think anyone can really say we definitely have a star on our hands but we can say at the very least when he develops he'll be a decent league forward/ruck at about Tippett standard. That's enough for me for now.
But there's still a very good chance he puts it all together and starts dominating when he starts to feel comfortable and is less knackered during games, and when I say knackered he looked dead halfway through the first quarter Saturday night. That's why I'm rallying against all the pressure and overly emotional judgements this early, we really have no clue what we have yet and the continued handwringing or declaring him a superstar is just hurting everything.
Sober judgment of whether he should be in the team week to week is cool, but can we get it without the nonsense and hyperbole.

 

[cecil]

I think a lot of people are kind of glossing over the time spent in the ruck though. He's spending at least 30-40% of his time in the ruck which for a guy who has a small tank is a damn big ask. But in doing this, it is really aiding Bev's preferred structure in that it allows us another midfield rotation as he eliminates the need for a 2nd ruck or KPF.

Anyway, I probably agree that I dont see him being a monster FF kicking 80 goals a year. BUT I think he will be a gun 2nd Ruck/KPF who chews through minutes in the ruck adequately and can kick 40-50 in a year. I'd almost go as far as saying having a gun player in this mold is more valuable!

 

[who_let_the_dogs_out]

When the ball hit him in the head on Saturday, it did look like he was pushed a little into the contest but I question whether he actually keeps his eyes on the ball ?

There was definitely hands in the back from Weitering, but let's not let that get in the way of a good laugh.

 

[Doggy Dan]

We really need to get this guy a one on one mentor. Not only to coach his game, but to be his mate. Nearly like a caddy. He is lost, bereft of confidence and must feel the weight of the world on his shoulders. If we put someone full time with him at least he can share the burden, talk it through, often a problem shared is a problem solved. He seems so unhappy all the time.

I feel really sorry for him and hope he is OK. He is too young to be laden with the pressure he has come under.

 

[immortalmike]

We really need to get this guy a one on one mentor. Not only to coach his game, but to be his mate. Nearly like a caddy. He is lost, bereft of confidence and must feel the weight of the world on his shoulders. If we put someone full time with him at least he can share the burden, talk it through, often a problem shared is a problem solved. He seems so unhappy all the time.

I feel really sorry for him and hope he is OK. He is too young to be laden with the pressure he has come under.

I think Chris Grant might be the guy. I think he might know exactly how he feels.

 

[Dogsman16]

We really need to get this guy a one on one mentor. Not only to coach his game, but to be his mate. Nearly like a caddy. He is lost, bereft of confidence and must feel the weight of the world on his shoulders. If we put someone full time with him at least he can share the burden, talk it through, often a problem shared is a problem solved. He seems so unhappy all the time.

I feel really sorry for him and hope he is OK. He is too young to be laden with the pressure he has come under.

Him and stringer. Both are still under the age of 22 and they are in desperate need of a KPF coach.

It's a position we have always struggled in so you would think we need someone to mentor them both in these positions.

 

[FoochPackage]

There's no question his junior footy was a lot better than what he is showing atm. And that has nothing to do with playing against kids half his size. He was a terrific mark and kick and even showed this early last year with us and with the Giants. The kid is a natural footballer but he is seriously lacking in confidence at the moment. The concern for me is his aggression and, at present, his confidence, the latter he would have had oodles of as a junior when he dominated....his drop off in form and confidence are correlated. The question is why. Injury? reading the newspapers critiquing him? Trying too hard to follow instructions so not playing naturally? Adjusting to new physique? Adjusting to not being solely a big key forward? I'm not sure what it is as an outsider but if he can address it and start playing confidently, the form will come and he will start to look like what we got him for.

I just hope this isn't an Andrew Bogut scenario. Bogut dominated college ball with his size and excellent 3 point shooting. That's what made him, and at the time, deservedly, the number 1 pick in the nba. However once in the nba system he couldn't rely on his size and superior physique to dominate. He had to learn all the little things - post ups, pivot moves, how to deal with bigger/faster opponents, how to switch etc. all this meant his 3 pt shot, one of his biggest weapons in college, is now virtually non existent as he had to focus on other more important areas of his game. Bogut turned out to be serviceable but not a number 1 pick. I hope this isn't the case for Tom - he's realising he can't rely now on his size and that afl level footy has a lot more going on tactically. Time will tell

Cant agree with you on the Bogut comparison.

Bogut was never a knockdown 3 point shooter. He had the post moves in his game from day dot. He was never used at the bucks cause they had redd and other players they gave the ball before him. After that elbow injury he was never going to be the same. Anyway back to Boyd. I'm confident he will be good. Maybe not the great white hope we expected but a more than serviceable player. He is only 20. If at 22/23 we are still saying the same things about him then I will be concerned.

 

[stefoid]

Spoiler: 56k modem warning

McLean owes Boyd a beer.