Tribunal told Bombers texted each other about ‘Thymo’ injections

[andrewb]

It proves to my comfortable satisfaction that the players were aware they were being injected with a thymoisin derivative. Whether that was beta 4, alpha or -momodulin is yet to be put to the tribunal.

It also (to my comfortable satisfaction) removes the 'no significant fault or negligence' defence entirely.

I'm comfortable that 'no fault nor negligence' is gone but 'no significant fault nor negligence' is very much on the table.

 

[threesixpio]

To be fair the players havent batted yet.

Looks a good deck.

Is Charter Nathan Lyons?

 

[threesixpio]

I'm comfortable that 'no fault nor negligence' is gone but 'no significant fault nor negligence' is very much on the table.

In some respects it isn't a huge leap from the signed consents anyway. Certainly corroborates though

 

[imperial_oz]

It proves to my comfortable satisfaction that the players were aware they were being injected with a thymoisin derivative. Whether that was beta 4, alpha or -momodulin is yet to be put to the tribunal.

It also (to my comfortable satisfaction) removes the 'no significant fault or negligence' defence entirely.

If they players were told it was alpha and agreed to that then were given beta4, they might still have a case for no significant fault.

Just to make the water a little more murky, you would have to offer proof that the players were deceived by a Dank, Robinson, Corcoran, Reid , Hird etc and that proof will not be easily found. Then you have to offset that against the fact the players did not fulfill their obligations and check with ASADA when they had the opportunities.

I think getting the no significant fault or negligence discount will be pretty hard to justify but not completely impossible if they can construct a valid argument for being deceived.

Thoughts?

 

[andrewb]

Is Charter Nathan Lyons?

Is it the 'good' Nathan Lyon or the 'bad' Nathan Lyon?

 

[threesixpio]

I kind of like the Aussie shortening with O.

"Hey Watto. Don't be a sicko. Don't take the Thymo!"

 

[QuietB]

ASADA haven't made all their evidence public yet? I'm shocked.
You could be certain that ASADA is playing this close to their chest.

At some point this will hit a critical mass where Essendon and the AFL do not want anymore evidence discussed/released/published.

This is why the players should of been marched into the courtroom instead of watching on a video link.

Chip is probably just "visiting" someone Has his boss ever payed for secret information like this in the past?

 

[threesixpio]

Is it the 'good' Nathan Lyon or the 'bad' Nathan Lyon?

The word "spinning" comes to mind but not with a ball

 

[Malifice]

• the is no evidence which places TB4 at the club
• there is no evidence that any of the 34 players were administered TB4 .

• On 2 August 2011 Dank forwarded a text message to Robinson stating: Hi mate. Just in consult for a shoulder reconstruction. This case will be of interest to you. We are utilizing Thymosin post surgically for one shoulder but prophylactically for the other. Thymosin is so effective in soft tissue maintenance. Dank was referring to Thymosin Beta-4 and not Thymosin Alpha as the functions of Thymosin Beta-4, but not Thymosin Alpha or Thymomodulin, include tissue regeneration and recovery functions.
• On 23 August 2011 Dank forwarded a text message to Robinson stating: Don’t forget how important Thymosin is. This is going to be our vital cornerstone next year. It is the ultimate assembly regulatory protein and biological modifier. Dank was referring to Thymosin Beta-4 and not Thymosin Alpha as the functions of Thymosin Beta-4, but not Thymosin Alpha or Thymomodulin, include tissue regeneration and recovery functions.
• Prior to 26 November 2011 Dank informed Charter that he needed Thymosin Beta-4.
• On 26 November 2011 Charter travelled to Shanghai, China in order to procure the raw materials for peptides including Thymosin Beta-4. He procured those raw materials from GL Biochem (Shanghai) Ltd (GL Biochem).
• On 1 December 2011 Dank forwarded a text message to Robinson stating Collingwood is on TA65
• On 1 December 2011 Dank forwarded a further text message to Robinson stating: I am planning with [Alavi] at the moment. We are planning something better.
• On 1 December 2011 Charter initiated inquiries with GL Biochem for a second order of peptides.
• Between 1 December 2011 and 8 December 2011 Charter ordered raw materials for the second purchase of peptides including the raw materials for Thymosin Beta-4.
• Charter’s order did not contain Thymosin Alpha.
• Charter only ever procured Thymosin Beta-4 for Dank, not Thymosin Alpha.
• On 2 December Charter returned to Melbourne from Shanghai with the raw material in respect of the first purchase of peptides including Thymosin Beta-4.
• On 11 January 2012, Charter forwarded a text message to Dank stating: Which peptides do you need (compounded) next?
• In his reply Dank requested “Thymosin Beta 4 and “CJC-1295”
• Charter then queried: what sort of quantities?
• Dank replied to Charter stating: Thymosin 20 of 5ml vials.
• Charter then forwarded a text message to Alavi stating: Hi Mate. Thymosin – 20 x 5ml vials. Steve's request.
• On 12 January 2012, Charter emailed a document to both Dank and Alavi which described “How to Use TB-500 (Thymosin Beta 4)”. The document described the optimum means by which to prepare, administer and store Thymosin Beta-4. Within the body of the accompanying email Charter asked Dank to check the document to ensure his concurrence with the protocols suggested “so we can make [the Thymosin Beta-4] up accordingly”. The document contained the statement that it was “For research purposes only”.
• Within Charter’s document it is recommended that Thymosin Beta-4 be administered subcutaneously, at the optimum frequency of “one vial per [subcutaneous] injection per week for 6 consecutive weeks, then 1 vial per month”. The frequency rate of administration for ‘Thymosin’ on the players’ “Patient Information/Informed Consent’ form is ‘1 Thymosin injection once a week for six weeks and then 1 injection per month”.
• The Club was then billed by Alavi for 26 vials of “peptide Thymosin” (at a combined cost of $9860) which are listed on the invoice as having been delivered on 18 January 2012.

http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf

Nope. No evidence there at all.

Aside from the text messages, emails, invoices, consent forms, and so forth showing Dank only ever ordered (and was only ever provided) with TB4, actively sought how to administer TB4 and then proceeded to administer 'thymoisin' (a term he himself used to describe TB4 in conversations with Alavi and Charters).. at the exact frequency and in the exact method one would administer TB4.

The 'comfortable satisfaction' of this little black duck is met.

 

[hoianbulldog]

ASADA have a really strong case for Charter->Alavi
ASADA have a strong case for Alavi->Dank
ASADA have a weak case for Dank->EFC
ASADA have a weak case for EFC->Player

There is the problem. It may be "weak" between Dank & EFC but there is no supply chain of the good Thymosin. That puts EFC is a really difficult situation particularly given the burden of proof is comfortable satisfaction.

 

[Percel]

G

Is it the 'good' Nathan Lyon or the 'bad' Nathan Lyon?

Get the Lion on the line!

 

[Satan]

Is Charter Nathan Lyons?

David grace needs to become wg grace

 

[Lance Uppercut]

ASADA does not have to prove ALL 34 players took TB4. If they can prove 1 player took it, it casts doubt on the others.

No it doesn't

 

[threesixpio]

• On 2 August 2011 Dank forwarded a text message to Robinson stating: Hi mate. Just in consult for a shoulder reconstruction. This case will be of interest to you. We are utilizing Thymosin post surgically for one shoulder but prophylactically for the other. Thymosin is so effective in soft tissue maintenance. Dank was referring to Thymosin Beta-4 and not Thymosin Alpha as the functions of Thymosin Beta-4, but not Thymosin Alpha or Thymomodulin, include tissue regeneration and recovery functions.
• On 23 August 2011 Dank forwarded a text message to Robinson stating: Don’t forget how important Thymosin is. This is going to be our vital cornerstone next year. It is the ultimate assembly regulatory protein and biological modifier. Dank was referring to Thymosin Beta-4 and not Thymosin Alpha as the functions of Thymosin Beta-4, but not Thymosin Alpha or Thymomodulin, include tissue regeneration and recovery functions.
• Prior to 26 November 2011 Dank informed Charter that he needed Thymosin Beta-4.
• On 26 November 2011 Charter travelled to Shanghai, China in order to procure the raw materials for peptides including Thymosin Beta-4. He procured those raw materials from GL Biochem (Shanghai) Ltd (GL Biochem).
• On 1 December 2011 Dank forwarded a text message to Robinson stating Collingwood is on TA65
• On 1 December 2011 Dank forwarded a further text message to Robinson stating: I am planning with [Alavi] at the moment. We are planning something better.
• On 1 December 2011 Charter initiated inquiries with GL Biochem for a second order of peptides.
• Between 1 December 2011 and 8 December 2011 Charter ordered raw materials for the second purchase of peptides including the raw materials for Thymosin Beta-4.
• Charter’s order did not contain Thymosin Alpha.
• Charter only ever procured Thymosin Beta-4 for Dank, not Thymosin Alpha.
• On 2 December Charter returned to Melbourne from Shanghai with the raw material in respect of the first purchase of peptides including Thymosin Beta-4.
• On 11 January 2012, Charter forwarded a text message to Dank stating: Which peptides do you need (compounded) next?
• In his reply Dank requested “Thymosin Beta 4 and “CJC-1295”
• Charter then queried: what sort of quantities?
• Dank replied to Charter stating: Thymosin 20 of 5ml vials.
• Charter then forwarded a text message to Alavi stating: Hi Mate. Thymosin – 20 x 5ml vials. Steve's request.
• On 12 January 2012, Charter emailed a document to both Dank and Alavi which described “How to Use TB-500 (Thymosin Beta 4)”. The document described the optimum means by which to prepare, administer and store Thymosin Beta-4. Within the body of the accompanying email Charter asked Dank to check the document to ensure his concurrence with the protocols suggested “so we can make [the Thymosin Beta-4] up accordingly”. The document contained the statement that it was “For research purposes only”.
• Within Charter’s document it is recommended that Thymosin Beta-4 be administered subcutaneously, at the optimum frequency of “one vial per [subcutaneous] injection per week for 6 consecutive weeks, then 1 vial per month”. The frequency rate of administration for ‘Thymosin’ on the players’ “Patient Information/Informed Consent’ form is ‘1 Thymosin injection once a week for six weeks and then 1 injection per month”.
• The Club was then billed by Alavi for 26 vials of “peptide Thymosin” (at a combined cost of $9860) which are listed on the invoice as having been delivered on 18 January 2012.

http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf

Nope. No evidence there at all.

Aside from the text messages, emails, invoices, consent forms, and so forth showing Dank only ever ordered (and was only ever provided) with TB4, actively sought how to administer TB4 and then proceeded to administer 'thymoisin' at the exact frequency described for TB4.

Comfortable satisfaction met.

Yeah but Thymo mate? When do they say Thymo?

 

[peppy la pew]

A couple of players exchanged texts on "thymo"

wow

A classic GG response to being found out again..

 

[kfc1]

ASADA does not have to prove ALL 34 players took TB4. If they can prove 1 player took it, it casts doubt on the others.

To suspend a particular player, ASADA has to prove they used TB4 - not that their teammate did.

 

[QuietB]

Why do you say this? Even ASADA thinks the photo is legit

I think we can all agree that yes, it is a photo

 

[hoianbulldog]

• On 26 November 2011 Charter travelled to Shanghai, China in order to procure the raw materials for peptides including Thymosin Beta-4. He procured those raw materials from GL Biochem (Shanghai) Ltd (GL Biochem).
• On 1 December 2011 Charter initiated inquiries with GL Biochem for a second order of peptides.

Nope. No evidence there at all.

Aside from the text messages, emails, invoices, consent forms, and so forth showing Dank only ever ordered (and was only ever provided) with TB4, actively sought how to administer TB4 and then proceeded to administer 'thymoisin' at the exact frequency described for TB4.

Comfortable satisfaction met.

On 26th Charter traveled to Shanghai. Does anyone know when he returned and if he had the gear with him or if it was shipped.
4 Days later he is ordering another batch which seems a very quick turn around for the second order.

 

[Grockadoc]

To suspend a particular player, ASADA has to prove they used TB4 - not that their teammate did.

I said it casts doubt, not that if you suspend one, you can suspend all. If one player is suspended for the use of TB4, do you think it increases, or decreases likelihood other players used it?

 

[Malifice]

If they players were told it was alpha and agreed to that then were given beta4, they might still have a case for no significant fault.

That's not my understanding of the no significant fault clause.

When you (as an athlete) agree to participate in a 'black ops' off site injection regime, and you are actively aware you are being administered 'thymoisin' (a derivative of which is banned by WADA) how on earth can you claim you had 'no significant fault'?

Most of the cases on no significant fault revolve around the athlete taking all reasonable precautions.

These blokes did not do that.

 

[kfc1]

I said it casts doubt, not that if you suspend one, you can suspend all. If one player is suspended for the use of TB4, do you think it increases, or decreases likelihood other players used it?

You also said "ASADA does not have to prove ALL 34 players took TB4"
They don't have to prove all 34 players did but if they want to suspend 34 players then they will need to do so

 

[Malifice]

I'm comfortable that 'no fault nor negligence' is gone but 'no significant fault nor negligence' is very much on the table.

I disagree personally. Its going to be a long bow for the Players to argue no significant fault IMO.

 

[Broken_Chairs]

That's not my understanding of the no significant fault clause.

When you (as an athlete) agree to participate in a 'black ops' off site injection regime, and you are actively aware you are being administered 'thymoisin' (a derivative of which is banned by WADA) how on earth can you claim you had 'no significant fault'?

Most of the cases on no significant fault revolve around the athlete taking all reasonable precautions.

These blokes did not do that.

but old mate dank said thymo was fine, that should be good enough for anyone right? take me to that off-site clinic and inject me right up.

 

[Linda Lovelace]

I like the Thymomodulin or Thymosin Alpha 1 hedge your bets defence.

'On the night of the murder I was fishing or on a business trip'

 

[Grockadoc]

You also said "ASADA does not have to prove ALL 34 players took TB4"
They don't have to prove all 34 players did but if they want to suspend 34 players then they will need to do so

I should have clarified with "to have a negative impact on Essendon's case."