Roast We need to move past this idea we are a young side

[Defacto]

i am sick of hearing!!! it seems everytime we lose, the immediate response is:
"oh well that happens to young developing sides, we will learn from that"

at what point do we start to move past this thinking and start to have some hard conversations around the output of some of the senior members in the team that are by no means young anymore. taking the side we had today:
Riewoldt (33)
Montagna (32)
Dempster (32)
Gilbert (29)
Armitage (27)
Geary (27)
Steven (26)
Savage (25)
Hickey (25)
Roberton (24)
Weller (24)
Bruce (23)
Newnes (23)
Ross (23)
Webster (22)
Membrey (21)
Dunstan (21)
Sinclair (21)
Billings (20)
Acres (20)
Lonie (19)
Gresham (18)

the clear majority of that side is not young. the only ones i would consider young and developing would be:
Membrey (21)
Dunstan (21)
Sinclair (21)
Billings (20)
Acres (20)
Lonie (19)
Gresham (18)

the majority of these are not full time midfielders or key positional players. they are small fwds/flankers. membrey, dunstan, acres are the only ones we can attribute to being part of the spine/engine. yet we got absolutely smashed today in the midfield. i am actually genuinely surprised how well the backline was holding up at times. against GWS it was the same story.

i think we need to be more honest with where we are at as a side. 3/4 of it is of an age where they should be impacting games, week in-week out. the inconsistencies are just far too great for so many of these senior players

here is david armitages output at 27 years of age:


28 disposal down to 19 two weeks later. jumps back the following week with 35 and then two weeks later produced 21 disposal and 16. then today it took him a quarter of football to show any intensity at all. how in the hell are we accepting of this? he is meant to be leading the inside mids!!

 

[George]

I think we have moved past it. I certainly have.

 

[nitewalker13]

I totally agree. I was watching carlton game today and they are playing good. Everyone predicted them for wooden spoon but they have already won 4 games. I know it was against lower ranking teams except port.

 

[Mowman]

This is why i think we are miles away from where we need to be,
Riewoldt (33)
Montagna (32)
Dempster (32)
Add Fisher to those 3, they are our better players every week. I just dont think our list is any where near strong enough to be a finals side for at least 3 years

 

[Mowman]

I think we have moved past it. I certainly have.

I haven't, hope the club hasn't

 

[Defacto]

This is why i think we are miles away from where we need to be,
Riewoldt (33)
Montagna (32)
Dempster (32)
Add Fisher to those 3, they are our better players every week. I just dont think our list is any where near strong enough to be a finals side for at least 3 years

great post. the worrying thing is riewoldt, montagna, dempster are still playing very good football

the issue is not them IMO its the next group under, who are quite clearly drinking their own bath water BIG TIME!

did jack steven re-sign for 900k? if so i am shaking my head.

 

[saintsrfreak]

great post. the worrying thing is riewoldt, montagna, dempster are still playing very good football

the issue is not them IMO its the next group under, who are quite clearly drinking their own bath water BIG TIME!

did jack steven re-sign for 900k? if so i am shaking my head.

Pretty sure it was 700k wasn't it? Will be worth the contract

 

[Defacto]

here's some mids that tore us a new one:
shuey (25)
masten (27)
gaff (23)
yeo (22)
duggan (19)

sheed (21) would have played if not injured

i'm sorry but this midfield group we have is seriously average and far too inconsistent compared to those in the same age bracket in other teams

 

[Defacto]

Pretty sure it was 700k wasn't it? Will be worth the contract

where would that put him, in the top 15 paid midfielders in the comp? he is no where near worth that much and is no where near the top 15. at 26 already, do we really see that improving out of sight?

 

[Choomah]

We need 4 more elite young mids, need at least two top 10 picks this year and hopefully trade in another

 

[sauce_head]

33 year olds don't play unless they are brilliant

But I take your point.

 

[saintsrfreak]

where would that put him, in the top 15 paid midfielders in the comp? he is no where near worth that much and is no where near the top 15. at 26 already, do we really see that improving out of sight?

Has won two best and fairests already.

 

[Defacto]

We need 4 more elite young mids, need at least two top 10 picks this year and hopefully trade in another

spot on. its almost a complete rebuild of the midfield that is still outstanding :-(

 

[Defacto]

Has won two best and fairests already.

lets call it for what it is, two best and fairest in a shite side

where do you put him in the standing amongst the rest of the comps mids. he is no where near the top 15

 

[saintsrfreak]

lets call it for what it is, two best and fairest in a shite side

where do you put him in the standing amongst the rest of the comps mids. he is no where near the top 15

I actually think he'd definitely be in the top 15 mids at his best, has been unlucky to not have been in an All Australian team imo

 

[GTrains Mullet]

lets call it for what it is, two best and fairest in a shite side

where do you put him in the standing amongst the rest of the comps mids. he is no where near the top 15

Don't know if he is the problem, he's averaging 27 disposal & 6 tackles this year.

 

[George]

I think we're blowing this way out of proportion.

Yes we played poorly today and should never accept losses like that, but that is the life of a developing side.

A bulk of our side are in that 23-28 age bracket and should be leading the way. We've been mauled twice this season to sides who are pushing for top four this year in GWS and now the Eagles. Our only really disappointing effort was against the Dogs, and personally that one still hurts, not because of the final score but because of how they responded and honored the greatest player to put on a STKFC jumper.

Apart from that we've actually been quite good. I think a developing side goes through stages of;

Getting smashed > Giving great effort for close games but ultimately losing them > Getting over the line in close games > Finals > Top 4 > Flag

I think we're in the second part of the development at the minute and as soon as we can start to get over the line in close games I think we'll really start to progress.

I don't want to dwell on the past but if we had beaten North and Hawthorn we'd be sitting 4-4 after 8 rounds.

Our draw has been one of the hardest in the competition over the first 8 games, and our record doesn't quite reflect where we are at as a footy club.

I'd say hold your horses until the bye round. Our next four weeks are Essendon, Fremantle, Adelaide, Carlton. We're a good chance in three of those games and if we DON'T go 3-1 in the next month then we can start asking questions, but honestly we've played some real quality sides so far this year.

We've beaten the sides we should have in Collingwood and Melbourne, and lost to grand finalists Hawthorn and West Coast, top of the table North Melbourne, Port in Adelaide, and potential top four sides the Bulldogs and Giants.

At the start of the year I looked over the fixture and has us penciled in at 4-4 (Beating Melbourne, GWS, Bulldogs, North) after 8 rounds. So yes it's been disappointing but encouraging to see we can match it with the top four sides.

I won't use age as an excuse for our performance, I'll simply say that we haven't been good enough for long enough. Talent is clearly there, and out of the developing sides in the competition, we have the best key position players out there. It's a lot easier to go to the draft in search for mids (a glaring need) than go to the draft in search for KPP's.

On your point about Jack Steven, I'm not sure you should be questioning his effort/performance. He has been our best midfielder all year long. He is the only reliable, consistent one of the bunch. Cracks in every game and his work inside and spread outside is what we need more of from other players.

Ross has come on in leaps and bounds this year, another injury free pre-season and he'll be right up there.

Despite the rubbish talk about Billings, he has been good for us this year and is developing nicely. Only played 30 odd games, so give him another year or two.

I think what you need to look at is not age demographic, but games played. I think once a player reaches 50 games then the probation period is up and they need to start performing consistently. Age in some respects has nothing to do with the output of the side.

From your list of players, this is how many games these boys have played in the lead up to today's game;

Riewoldt (305)
Montagna (256)
Dempster (210)
Gilbert (164)
Armitage (135)
Geary (127)
Steven (119)
Savage (97)
Hickey (48)
Roberton (87)
Weller (75)
Bruce (53)
Newnes (76)
Ross (44)
Webster (45)
Membrey (15)
Dunstan (41)
Sinclair (23)
Billings (32)
Acres (14)
Lonie (23)
Gresham (4)

That's 10 of the 12 out there that have played less than 50 games. Once each and every one of those boys plays more and has another year in the system I think you'll start to see some vast improvement. From the other, middle tier players, Shane Savage and Jack Newnes are having career years. Josh Bruce has received more attention this year but his numbers are up on last year. Mav Weller is a bull in and around the ball, reminds me of Aaron Hamill in the way he goes about it. His career has taken off since he came over from GC. Roberton was one of our best today. Steven 2 time TB medalist. Geary, whilst people like to hang s**t on him, has been superb this year. Gilbert likewise. Armitage is getting more attention and he's probably the only one from the guys out there today who's been a bit down on form from last year.

Sam Fisher not being out there stripped us of 223 games of experience today.

Not to mention we've got guys like McCartin, Goddard, Carlisle, Minchington, Longer, Freeman, White, McKenzie to come in. If things work out with Freeman that'd be a much needed boost to the mid stocks too.

All in all I think we're alright. I agree with you in that we shouldn't be using age as an excuse anymore, and I definitely won't be doing it, but I think a majority of the list just need more exposure to AFL footy.

You look at this time next year. Hickey, Webster, Ross, Dunstan, Billings, Lonie, Sinclair will either have played 50 games or bloody close to. The guys above them will have either played 100 or close to it. Steven 150 odd games. Armo 150.

Just got to give these things time. Performances like today aren't acceptable from any side but again, it's the life of a developing list. All we can do now is respond next week. I know the guys we have on the list have enormous character and pride for the jumper. They won't be happy with performances like these. Lukey Dunstan was in tears last week.

The boys are hurting but at least we can take solace in the fact they haven't hung it up and written this one off. They want to do something about it which to me shows that they are committed to the cause. Our list is in a good space.

So lets go to the draft at the end of the year and stockpile as many talented mids as we can, maybe land a big fish at the end of next year, and we'll be laughing. I know other Vic clubs are envious of the spine we're building with Goddard, Carlisle, Bruce and McCartin. Not to mention the rucks blossoming in Hickey and Longer from what we saw last year.

Good times ahead. Keep the faith

 

[Stewart66]

here's some mids that tore us a new one:
shuey (25)
masten (27)
gaff (23)
yeo (22)
duggan (19)

sheed (21) would have played if not injured

i'm sorry but this midfield group we have is seriously average and far too inconsistent compared to those in the same age bracket in other teams

With respect Shuey & Masten would not get a kick without Nick Nat , hence why they are inconsistent too.

We all know our midfield lacks run & spread , positive today was Ross.


Eagles always come hard , when they get bad press and they always do it at home.
Priddis has been really poor of late and he is the guy who always sets them up.

Not worried about it at all at this stage .

 

[Defacto]

I actually think he'd definitely be in the top 15 mids at his best, has been unlucky to not have been in an All Australian team imo

here are the better mids IMO:
fyfe, gaz, priddis, mitchell, burgoyne, shuey, dangerfield, selwood, sloane, shiel, ward, kennedy, hannelberry, cripps, libba, pendlebury, masten, neale, treloar, montagna

that's 20... but he'd be paid better than 13 on that list

 

[Choomah]

here are the better mids IMO:
fyfe, gaz, priddis, mitchell, burgoyne, shuey, dangerfield, selwood, sloane, shiel, ward, kennedy, hannelberry, cripps, libba, pendlebury, masten, neale, treloar, montagna

that's 20... but he'd be paid better than 13 on that list

Agree with all but Burgoyne and masten

 

[DarkSaint]

I think it's time for the selection panel and coaches to wake up and actually start playing the kids at the expense of wins. We all seem to be saying wait until McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie, Eli etc get to that 70 odd games..

But guess what them being in the vfl will not make them magically better at afl in 2 or so years like everyone is saying.

If we put out our vfl side against the eagles we wouldn't have lost by a 100!

It's time for the coaches to wake up and actually play the damn kids even if it's means finishing second to last then so be it. I'd rather than then being pumped or putting up half decent efforts every now and again with out some of the youngster being played in the seniors.

 

[Nutsngum]

here are the better mids IMO:
fyfe, gaz, priddis, mitchell, burgoyne, shuey, dangerfield, selwood, sloane, shiel, ward, kennedy, hannelberry, cripps, libba, pendlebury, masten, neale, treloar, montagna

that's 20... but he'd be paid better than 13 on that list

Dude youve got absolutely no idea how much Steven is actually on. 700k is a figure plucked from nowhere so lets not get into a ridiculous argument about it.

 

[St Kilda Death]

I think you're getting carried away with "age" here. The more important factor is games played.
Fox footy showed a graphic before the game clearly stating a majority of west coast side was in the 100-200 game bracket, over half of ours under.
Post 100 is where good players find consistency.

 

[kernelT]

This is why i think we are miles away from where we need to be,
Riewoldt (33)
Montagna (32)
Dempster (32)
Add Fisher to those 3, they are our better players every week. I just dont think our list is any where near strong enough to be a finals side for at least 3 years

This is the biggest issue, take out the 4 players over 32 and we are pushing 18th.

We still desperately need top end talent, so winning a few more games with these vets is a false economy.

 

[gringo2011]

This is the biggest issue, take out the 4 players over 32 and we are pushing 18th.

We still desperately need top end talent, so winning a few more games with these vets is a false economy.

Yep I saw the post Roey, Montagna, Dempster future and I'm starting to panic. Take them out and we are an extremely poor side. There is obviously development to come but I think we might have over estimated how great our recruiting has been recently. We have Billings who looks blue chip but a fair way off and probably Newnes, Steven, Armo, Savage, Ross and Hickey as guys looking high standard footballers. The rest are just potential players. None of them are top 20 AFL players at this stage either.

Armo and Steven were outstanding last year this year neither has backed it up to the same level. We could be bottom 4 for a considerable period if we don't get it right when the old guys go. Last year we traded out access to a top 4 draft pick for Carlisle and so far he's not been able to make any impact but could be good, In the meantime we see to have adapted the Dogs style of having a swarm of smaller running backs replacing the bulk of the defensive stocks. We also traded away a second rounder for Freeman. I hope like hell they do it the conservative path this time. No high risk trades. That doesn't mean not going after Shiel or a gun, just not an injury prone or idiot type.

We rebuilt around the idea of having a spine built first then adding to it only for the modern spine being 4 KPs and a lot of running players who are multi facetted.