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Orazio2Joe said:
People who order "lattés". You're actually just asking for a cup of milk. The term is café latté, not just latté.

Similarly, places that serve long white, café latté and cappuccino as exactly the same drink. There's a reason there are three different terms for them; because they are three different drinks!
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Well my barista knows what I want when I ask for a latté ;)
 
Death. Found out today my uncle found one of my cousins passed away at his house. 35 ******* years old.
 

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Dave said:
Death. Found out today my uncle found one of my cousins passed away at his house. 35 ******* years old.
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Ah, s**t. Sorry to hear, mate.
 
May be seen as a bit disrespectful but the media's portrayal of the Australians involved in Bali 9. Seriously? They knew that Indonesia had the Death Penalty over drug smuggling. They tried anyway, and got caught, and have to pay the consequences.
 
No one is trying to argue they weren't stupid.

Most of the commentary has been around the fact the death penalty is arbitrary, brutal, hypocritical and wrong. I have absolutely no issue with coverage putting a more 'human' face on the two of them- these are two young men who were very, very stupid but if they have genuinely changed as people and admitted their mistakes- rehabilitated if you will- then why shouldn't we have media coverage that reminds us of that?

Is it because 'humanising' them as being something beyond being criminals about to be zapped makes you feel uncomfortable?
 
Dave said:
Death. Found out today my uncle found one of my cousins passed away at his house. 35 ******* years old.
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Oh Dave my heart goes out to you and your family
 
No, just that the law is absolute. It's the only thing that's absolute in my opinion (except maybe * Carlton) and if you break the law you have to face the consequences. I disagree with capital punishment over drug smuggling but they were in the wrong and as such risked their lives by doing so, and came up short. As far as I'm concerned, it's an Indonesian issue and the media wouldn't give a s**t if it were someone from England or America.
 
You're right in terms of why our media is paying so much attention to it, but that's all you're right on.

If everyone consistently carried the attitude that the law is absolute, then some pretty damn horrific things would have been given carte blanche. How about all the racist and sexist crap that was once 'the law' here.

I'm not advocating people be law-breaking anarchists either, that doesn't lead to any good. But it is absolutely right that commentary can question aspects of it.
 
Doss said:
You're right in terms of why our media is paying so much attention to it, but that's all you're right on.

If everyone consistently carried the attitude that the law is absolute, then some pretty damn horrific things would have been given carte blanche. How about all the racist and sexist crap that was once 'the law' here.

I'm not advocating people be law-breaking anarchists either, that doesn't lead to any good. But it is absolutely right that commentary can question aspects of it.
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That's different, and you know it. The law here should be debated by Australians and the Australian media. Indonesia have a very understandable punishment over drug smuggling, and we should respect that.

It's not as if they're killing women for showing their ankles. The stuff in places like Syria and Iran are shocking but this is understandable and I have no problem with them dying over it.
 
Doss said:
Executing people for smuggling drugs is understandable?

Okay.

I don't agree.
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I can understand it, makes sure that a drug underbelly never gets a foothold in there.
 
It's already there regardless.

This spike in people being executed in Indonesia is entirely political. Check the correlation between execution rates and the election of the last President.
 

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Doss said:
It's already there regardless.

This spike in people being executed in Indonesia is entirely political. Check the correlation between execution rates and the election of the last President.
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From memory it also has little deterrence value in terms of dissuading people from committing the crime, which has been demonstrated in multiple countries.

It's vengeance, pure and simple and IMO has no place in civilised society. Enough people die every day without us deliberately adding to it.
 
Doss, Harlequin, Redman, appreciate your thoughts.
 
Dave - my condolences mate.

The Bali subject. I want to say first up that I don't (in this situation) subscribe to the theory "Do the crime, do the time". Just because they were aware of the punishment, doesn't make the punishment less abhorrent.

That said, It really is a shame that we as citizens feel more outrage toward the justice system of others countries than our own justice system. We are very arrogant and naïve in expecting another country to adjust their legal system, which has been in place since their inception as an independent country, as soon as it suits us.

How about we start campaigning against our own legal system? Starting with harsher penalties for sex offenders.
 
eth-dog said:
I can understand it, makes sure that a drug underbelly never gets a foothold in there.
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The boys were like 21 at the time. And let's be really honest here, Indonesia isn't exactly free of corruption and is a very young democracy. Execution is wrong, very very wrong. It's state sanctioned murder and belongs in decades gone by.

Just before this all occurred, when I was about 19, if you had have asked me if the death penalty was in place for drug trafficking in Indonesia I would have said no, so I wonder if the argument that they knew the risk is even correct.

For a country with such a young democracy, such a loose hold on judicial and legal integrity, having the death penalty is very stupid.
 
Doss said:
It's already there regardless.

This spike in people being executed in Indonesia is entirely political. Check the correlation between execution rates and the election of the last President.
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I agree with eth-dog on this one.

Not for one moment do I agree with capital punishment, but if you deliberately do a crime in another country then you have to face the consequences as laid out in that country if caught. If that is life in prison, so be it, if that is a slap with a wet lettuce leaf, so be it. Unfortunately if that is paying with your life, then so be it.

You can't expect the government to come to the rescue every time, especially in a country that is as corrupt as Indonesia. It's an unfortunate circumstance as the death penalty is not the single sentencing option in Indonesia in this scenario, but it is an option.

Anyway, they're at peace now and it is the families that I feel truely sorry for. They are the ones that didn't do anything wrong, and they now have to pick up the pieces from their sons doing the wrong thing in the wrong country.
 
I don't disagree with any of that, Pweter, but I dislike the assumption some make that people only care when it's Australians who are executed.

For me personally, I'm opposed to all capital punishment- I suppose you could term it a bugbear of mine. Every time I hear a country somewhere, or a US state, has abolished it, I consider it a win.
 
scezza said:
Just before this all occurred, when I was about 19, if you had have asked me if the death penalty was in place for drug trafficking in Indonesia I would have said no, so I wonder if the argument that they knew the risk is even correct.
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Were you involved in the illegal trade of drugs? Did you devise an elaborate plan to smuggle them into the country?

Come on man, there is no chance they weren't aware of the repercussions.
 
Doss said:
I don't disagree with any of that, Pweter, but I dislike the assumption some make that people only care when it's Australians who are executed.

For me personally, I'm opposed to all capital punishment- I suppose you could term it a bugbear of mine. Every time I hear a country somewhere, or a US state, has abolished it, I consider it a win.
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The Australian (mainstream) media certainly only seem to care when it's Australians that get executed, we haven't very little from them on the executions in Indonesia since the Barlow and Chambers hangings in the 80s. This time round it has constant and in the last few weeks almost at the point of media saturation.

If that was to try and put public and political pressure on the Indonesian government then so be it, but I think it is disrespectful to everyone personally involved to have it thrown in their face every time they open a paper or go online.

Unfortunately capital punishment will never be globally abolished in my opinion. If anyone is willingly going to break the law in another country they therefore need to be aware of the consequences and accept them. These were 2 dumb 20 odd year olds that stuffed up royally in pursuit of a quick buck and it's a shame it came to this.

For me the bigger story is the corruption in Indonesia where we see citizens often avoiding the death penalty for these crimes yet foreigners tend to get it. Why is that so? That is where countries need to put pressure on Indonesia and have them explain their actions and if not appropriate, penalise them with trade sanctions or something similar. The issue is, with our economy at present, any trade sanctions against neighbouring countries is shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
Pweter, certainly, I think it's well worth exploring the sudden spike in executions in Indonesia and the appointment of Widodo as President.

Fact is, in those countries, not bowing down to Western political pressure has serious political mileage. Which is where I do have an issue with aspects of the media coverage. The jingoistic crap like showing Widodo on the front page of the paper with blood on his hands, for example.

Yes, it's not Australians being executed, but does our paper run pictures of Rick Perry with blood on his hands every time Texas kills someone? Nup. If anything, that sort of jingoism just strengthens their resolve.

I have no issue with the media coverage that portrayed the human side of Chan and Sukumaran, though.
 
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