why aren't Fitzroy's premierships considered part of Brisbane Lions history?

[Roylion]

The Brisbane Lions effectively 'took over' the Fitzroy Lions identity....

They rebranded to look more like Fitzroy. This was done to gain a Melbourne supporter base for them. The AFL wanted to retain Fitzroy supporters in the AFL, so they gave Brisbane 'merger' concessions in terms of additions to their player list and finances.

 

[andrew coombs]

As far as I'm concerned the notion that a merger of two clubs means they inherit each others history and achievements is complete nonsense. The Brisbane Lions began as a Football club in 1997 and their honour roll should reflect only what has occurred since. The 8 Premierships won by the Fitzroy Football Club prior to their merger belong to the Lions, their past players, administrators and supporters. You can't buy ( or be the AFL"s preferred destination club for a merger ) another football clubs history.

 

[Roylion]

Cliffs: Fitzroy still exist, they just play in the VAFA rather than the VFL. The merged entity simply 'represents the Fitzroy identity in the AFL'.

It's a bit tenuous for mine and smacks of having an each way bet. It's either a merged entity or it isn't.

It's not.

If it is, then one party doesn't get to just choose to exist in its own right after the merger.

You better take that up with the Supreme Court of Victoria. To gain the administrator's approval for Brisbane to acquire some of Fitzroy's existing assets (which wasn't much), a Deed of Arrangement between the administrator and the Bears was signed. When the adminstrator moved out, control of the Fitzroy Football Club was returned to the elected directors in 1997.

If it isn't, then Brisbane can wear whatever jumper they like,

They do.

use whatever emblem they like,

They can. And some would argue they did between 2010-2014.

the AFL can schedule Brisbane away games wherever they like etc.

They do.

After all, it's 'just a re-branding'.

It is.

 

[Roylion]

he Brisbane Lions began as a Football club in 1997 and their honour roll should reflect only what has occurred since.

1987.

 

[andrew coombs]

1987.

Fitzroy played in the Prelim in 1986, didn't go quite as well in their last season in 1996.

 

[Roylion]

Fitzroy played in the Prelim in 1986,

Yes I was there.

didn't go quite as well in their last season in 1996.

I was there too.

The Brisbane Lions (that were once called the Bears) started as a football club in 1987.

 

[Max Power 83]

Hey Roylion,

I really do enjoy your posts about this subject, although I haven't read them all. I was a bit too young to remember all the ins and outs of when the "merger" went down, so it is appreciated.

Pure hypothetical I wanted to ask. As is insinuated is the OP that South Melb-Sydney is the same as Fitzroy-Brisbane, if you had the choice to go back and relocate to Brisbane as the one club in 1987, would you support it? assuming the current situation is the only alternative?

 

[Scotland]

It's not.

They do.

They can. And some would argue they did between 2010-2014.

They do.

It is.

So why are there Fitzroy people complaining about Brisbane every single year?

If there is no merged entity then the merger agreement is academic, surely.

 

[andrew coombs]

Yes I was there.



I was there too.

The Brisbane Lions (that were once called the Bears) started as a football club in 1987.

I was referring to the Bribane Lions who began in 1997. The Brisbane Bears did indeed start in 1987 but had no connection whatsoever with Fitzroy until the latter part of 1996. The Bears short history, like Fitzroys long one, belongs to those who were involved with that club in the years preceding their merger with the FFC.

 

[Roylion]

Pure hypothetical I wanted to ask. As is insinuated is the OP that South Melb-Sydney is the same as Fitzroy-Brisbane, if you had the choice to go back and relocate to Brisbane as the one club in 1987, would you support it? assuming the current situation is the only alternative?

I'd support it, because of the Fitzroy identity, but even if Fitzroy had relocated, lock, stock and barrel to Brisbane in 1987, Fitzroy supporters remaining in Melbourne would still be in fairly much the same situation as now - 5-6 games per season and supporting a Queensland-centric club.

For that reason, upon reflection, I would have preferred a merger with a Melbourne based club, as long as a significant Fitzroy identity was in the branding of the club. For example in 1986 and again in 1994 Melbourne and Fitzroy discussed a merger which very nearly happened. An in-principle' tentative agreement was reached that a company called the "Melbourne Football Club - Fitzroy Football Club Pty Ltd", operating as the "Melbourne Lions" would be formed. The jumper of the new team was essentially the traditional red and blue Melbourne jumper with a gold band separating the two colours, the gold Fitzroy lion logo featured on the front and a gold number on the back. They were to play out of the MCG.

I could have lived with the "Melbourne Lions".

 

[Roylion]

I was referring to the Bribane Lions who began in 1997.

The Brisbane Lions did not begin in 1997, in the same way the Fitzroy Lions did not begin in 1957, when Fitzroy adopted the Lions moniker. Both clubs began earlier than that. Brisbane in 1987 and Fitzroy in 1883. A new club does not begin just because it changes its moniker. And that's pretty much all Brisbane did in 1996-1997. They rebranded themselves to look more like Fitzroy.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Cliffs: Fitzroy still exist, they just play in the VAFA rather than the VFL. The merged entity simply 'represents the Fitzroy identity in the AFL'.

It's a bit tenuous for mine and smacks of having an each way bet. It's either a merged entity or it isn't.

If it is, then one party doesn't get to just choose to exist in its own right after the merger. If it isn't, then Brisbane can wear whatever jumper they like, use whatever emblem they like, the AFL can schedule Brisbane away games wherever they like etc. After all, it's 'just a re-branding'.

Rebranding that took 8 of the Fitzroy players. For that the merged entity shall pay via designated jumpers/ location of games.

 

[Scotland]

A new club does not begin just because it changes its moniker. And that's pretty much all Brisbane did in 1996-1997. They rebranded themselves to look more like Fitzroy.

This is staggeringly naive.

The AFL Merger Support Deed between the Brisbane Bears and the AFL - July 17th 1996

The following is a full and complete text of the AFL Merger Support Deed signed between the AFL and the Brisbane Bears Football Club.


Page 1:



BRISBANE BEARS FOOTBALL CLUB, ACN 054 263 473 ("Brisbane Bears")

and

AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE


A.C.N. 004 151 211


MERGER SUPPORT DEED



Page 2:


SCHEDULE 1

MERGER DETAILS

At the end of the 1996 Season, Fitzroy will cease its Fitzroy Operations, terminate the membership of its Appointee of AFL (appointed pursuant to AFL's constituent documents and surrender its AFL Licence and release AFL from all claims connected with its AFL Licence and such termination and surrender. Fitzroy will transfer all tangible and intangible assets associated with its Club Operations (including all memorabilia) to Brisbane Bears so that the merger is complete on or before the Merger Date.

Fitzroy will pay to Brisbane Bears all available moneys by way of repayment of any Loan advances made by Brisbane Bears under the Merger Agreement.

The Merger will be implemented in the following manner:

a) The Merged Club will trade as Brisbane Lions Australian Football Club and subject to the passing of the special resolution referred to in clause 6 of the Merger Agreement, the Merged Club will be re-named Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Limited:

b) The playing uniform of the Merged Club will, for a period of 7 years after the Merger Date for away games, comprise the existing Fitzroy playing uniform (or the existing Fitzroy preseason playing uniform) (save that the emblem shall be be BL not FFC) and for all home games and all games after 7 years, will predominately comprise all Fitzroy colours in a design approved by AFL;

c) The logo of the merged club will be the Fitzroy lion logo in perpetuity;

d) At least three Fitzroy nominees will be appointed to the board of the Merged Club to fill casual vacancies. Brisbane Bears will procure the continued appointment of two directors nominated by the body or entity nominated by the Brisbane Bears in accordance with the Merger Agreement for a period of 10 years from the merger date;

e) The Merged Club will include on its list at least 8 Fitzroy players on the basis of not less than their then existing contracts to be nominated by the Merged Club in priority to the right of any other AFL Club to draft any Fitzroy players;

f) The list of the merged club will contain 44 players in 1997, reducing to 42 players in 1998.

g) The salary cap for the Merged Club will be increased above the level which applies to the Brisbane Bears by $300,000 in 1997, $200,000 in 1998 and $100,000 in 1999.

Page 3

h) The Merged Club will play one half of the total number of home and away games per season at the Gabba and as many Melbourne based away premiership games as possible will be played at Optus Oval or the Melbourne Cricket Ground (but not less than 6) with any other away premiership games at any of Waverley, Optus Oval or the Melbourne Cricket Ground at which Melbourne based members of the Merged Club will have home ground status (in respect of which Brisbane Bears will make a contribution to gate receipts of an amount determined by AFL); and

i) Fitzroy's coterie groups will have the right to take up commensurate arrangements in the Merged Club including the designated away games played in Melbourne.

After the merger Brisbane Bears will establish an appropriate body or entity to:
i) manage and maintain the Fitzroy memorabilia which will be utilized in the Club Operations of the Merged Club;
ii) represent the interests of the Melbourne based members of the Merged Club; and
iii) nominate persons to serve as directors on the board of the Merged Club for 10 years after the Merger Date.


Page 4:

EXECUTED As a Deed

SIGNED, SEALED and DELIVERED for and on behalf of the BRISBANE BEARS FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED by its duly appointed attorney under a power of attorney in the presence of

ANDREW IRELAND in the presence of David Dunn


THE COMMON SEAL of the AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE was affixed in the presence of and the sealing is attested to by: (Director)

GRAEME SAMUEL
Commissioner

ROSS OAKLEY
Chief Executive Officer

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...tween-the-afl-and-the-brisbane-bears.1010794/

But yeah, they just changed their jumper and colours a bit for marketing purposes.

 

[Roylion]

So why are there Fitzroy people complaining about Brisbane every single year?

Because some Fitzroy people support and are members of the Brisbane Lions. I support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL competition, because they are the AFL side that looks most like Fitzroy. They occasionally wear the Fitzroy jumper and commemorate Fitzroy's VFL-AFL history. Who else would I support in the AFL? But the Brisbane Lions are not Fitzroy. They are seperate football clubs.

If there is no merged entity then the merger agreement is academic, surely.

There is a Deed of Arrangement signed between the Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1883) and the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1987). As an existing shareholder and member of the Fitzroy Football Club, I expect the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club (trading as the 'Brisbane Lions') to adhere to the remaining terms of that Deed.

 

[Roylion]

Rebranding that took 8 of the Fitzroy players. For that the merged entity shall pay via designated jumpers/ location of games.

That was an AFL concession to Brisbane so that they would recognise and maintain a Fitzroy identity (or 'branding' if you will) in the AFL in order to hopefully retain at least some of the Fitzroy supporter base in supporting the AFL.

 

[Roylion]

This is staggeringly naive.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...tween-the-afl-and-the-brisbane-bears.1010794/

But yeah, they just changed their jumper and colours a bit for marketing purposes.

Very good. You linked to the text I posted.

I've already highlighted the parts that establish that Fitzroy remained a separate entity from the Brisbane Bears/Lions. That was confirmed by Associate Justice Mukhtar of the Supreme Court of Victoria when Fitzroy Football Club took the Brisbane Lions to court in 2010. The Brisbane Lions didn't sue themselves.

 

[Scotland]

Because some Fitzroy people support and are members of the Brisbane Lions. I support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL competition, because they are the AFL side that looks most like Fitzroy. They occasionally wear the Fitzroy jumper and commemorate Fitzroy's VFL-AFL history. Who else would I support in the AFL? But the Brisbane Lions are not Fitzroy. They are seperate football clubs.

As I said, each way bet. You want to support Fitzroy in the VAFA and you want to support Fitzroy - via the apparently non-merged entity - in the AFL.

If there is no merged entity then shouldn't Fitzroy Football Club commemorate its own history?

There is a Deed of Arrangement signed between the Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1883) and the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1987). As an existing shareholder and member of the Fitzroy Football Club, I expect the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club (trading as the 'Brisbane Lions') to adhere to the remaining terms of that Deed.

Seems like a lot of effort to go for a jumper change.

 

[Roylion]

As I said, each way bet. You want to support Fitzroy in the VAFA and you want to support Fitzroy - via the apparently non-merged entity - in the AFL.

No. I don't support Fitzroy in the AFL. Fitzroy aren't in the AFL.

Why can't I support one club in the AFL and another club in the VAFA, in the same way Eagles fans can support the Eagles and a club in the WAFL?

I support the Brisbane Lions who out of all the 18 AFL clubs look most like the identity of my club Fitzroy when they were in the AFL. I do this for reasons I've already explained. Both clubs are a party to an agreement that Brisbane will do certain things in relation to Fitzroy's identity and its VFL-AFL history. That involved rebranding the club from a Bears identity to a more Fitzroy-like identity.That doesn't mean there was a 'merger'.

If there is no merged entity then shouldn't Fitzroy Football Club commemorate its own history?

They do commemorate their own history. Ever been to the Brunswick Street Oval since 1996? Plenty of honourboards that include the entire Fitzroy history all the way back to 1883.

Seems like a lot of effort to go for a jumper change.

The AFL went to a lot of effort to get rid of Fitzroy from the AFL but yet retain its rich history and more importantly some of their supporter base.

 

[Roysforever]

Hey Roylion,

I really do enjoy your posts about this subject, although I haven't read them all. I was a bit too young to remember all the ins and outs of when the "merger" went down, so it is appreciated.

Pure hypothetical I wanted to ask. As is insinuated is the OP that South Melb-Sydney is the same as Fitzroy-Brisbane, if you had the choice to go back and relocate to Brisbane as the one club in 1987, would you support it? assuming the current situation is the only alternative?

The grave decision of what do following the merger haunted all Fitzroy supporters at the end of 1996. I appreciated one of my patients recently saying their initial intention was to visit the zoo every Saturday just to watch the Lions play! Ultimately decisions were left to the individual and this sadly meant the Fitzroy family would move in all different directions. Personally, I was quite disenchanted with the white-anting of the AFL (another worthy thread to read on the Fitzroy board) and my passion for the competition was lost. Years later I was chuffed when Fitzroy could begin fielding a team in the local VAFA and I could now watch the Royboys play at our traditional home, Brunswick Street Oval, on a Saturday afternoon. It may not be the elite on-field competition, however, the club that runs out to the theme song forever ingrained into my veins is the club I hold so dear.

 

[Fire]

This is staggeringly naive.



http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...tween-the-afl-and-the-brisbane-bears.1010794/

But yeah, they just changed their jumper and colours a bit for marketing purposes.

Dude, don't link to an article you clearley didn't bother reading and then call others naive.

 

[Scotland]

Dude, don't link to an article you clearley didn't bother reading and then call others naive.

It's not an article. It's the text of the merger support deed.

How many other clubs have signed one of these to change their jumper?

 

[Roylion]

It's not an article. It's the text of the merger support deed.

How many other clubs have signed one of these to change their jumper?

The Brisbane Bears, with AFL input, wrote the Deed, stating what they would do in return for certain AFL benefits. Fitzroy had absolutely no input into the Deed at all. No Fitzroy director ever signed it. Indeed they unanimously refused to do so. The administrator, after some nudging from the AFL, agreed to sign it.

How many other clubs gained $6 million from the AFL and first picks from another AFL club's list (as per an AFL directive)? Brisbane Bears were also to get Fitzroy's AFL assets such as memorabilia and membership lists, after the licence was removed from Fitzroy but there weren't many assets to grab. They tried to get the Fitzroy Club Hotel too, but that court action failed.

And of course the benefit for the AFL was that they finally achieved their stated policy of removing one club from Melbourne.

 

[andrew coombs]

The Brisbane Lions did not begin in 1997, in the same way the Fitzroy Lions did not begin in 1957, when Fitzroy adopted the Lions moniker. Both clubs began earlier than that. Brisbane in 1987 and Fitzroy in 1883. A new club does not begin just because it changes its moniker. And that's pretty much all Brisbane did in 1996-1997. They rebranded themselves to look more like Fitzroy.

taking on another opposition clubs identity to add to your own is a hell of a lot different to changing the nickname of your footy team. The Brisbane Football Club post merger should have and did become a different entity.

 

[Scotland]

No. I don't support Fitzroy in the AFL. Fitzroy aren't in the AFL.

Why can't I support one club in the AFL and another club in the VAFA, in the same way Eagles fans can support the Eagles and a club in the WAFL?

I support the Brisbane Lions who out of all the 18 AFL clubs look most like the identity of my club Fitzroy when they were in the AFL. I do this for reasons I've already explained. Both clubs are a party to an agreement that Brisbane will do certain things in relation to Fitzroy's identity and its VFL-AFL history. That involved rebranding the club from a Bears identity to a more Fitzroy-like identity.That doesn't mean there was a 'merger'.

I support Swan Districts in the WAFL. And Western Force in Super Rugby. And... who cares? You can support as many clubs in as many competitions as you want.

You support Brisbane because of the connection to Fitzroy. The club which changed its name to Lions from Bears. The club which changed its jumper to that resembling Fitzroy's. The club which is required to have a Lion as its emblem in perpetuity. The club who has BBFFC on the back of its jumper. The club who agreed to sign at least 8 players from Fitzroy. The club who absorbed all of Fitzroy's history pertaining to football club operations. The club who was required to appoint Fitzroy nominees to its board. Etc.

But there was no merger. Just a re-branding. A jumper change.

They do commemorate their own history. Ever been to the Brunswick Street Oval since 1996? Plenty of honourboards that include the entire Fitzroy history all the way back to 1883

Nope. If I ever find myself in the area I'll check it out.

I was going to ask about your pre-VFL history, seeing as Brisbane merely 'commemorate your VFL/AFL identity'. That aside, if you are commemorating your own history then what history are Brisbane commemorating as part of the merger conditions? Did someone make duplicates of everything from 1897-1996?

The AFL went to a lot of effort to get rid of Fitzroy from the AFL but yet retain its rich history and more importantly some of their supporter base.

The AFL had blood on their hands at the time and their treatment of Fitzroy was and remains awful.

I used to think that Brisbane just picked at the carcass of Fitzroy for their own benefit with the AFL's rubber stamped approval, and that Brisbane weren't doing enough as the major partner of the merger for Fitzroy people.

But there was no merger, so I'll have to reassess that...

 

[Roylion]

taking on another opposition clubs identity to add to your own is a hell of a lot different to changing the nickname of of of your footy team. The Brisbane Football Club post merger should have and did become a different entity.

Not add. Replace. And that opposition club was no longer part of the competition.

The Supreme Court of Victoria disagrees with you that the Brisbane Football Club became a different entity. They were the same entity as before 1997. Just rebranded to the Lions.