Williams F1

Discussion in 'Motor Board' started by Team DJ, Jan 18, 2012.

Put it out there
  1. Team DJ

    Team DJ All Australian

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    Its super sad to see how far this team have fallen. Growing up, them and McLaren were the teams to beat. For me it was Nigel, Prost, Damon and Jacques. Then some good success with Ralf and JPM. Obviously before my time there was great results with Piquet Keke and Jonesy.

    To see thier driver line up of Senna and Maldonado is a sad day. Surely a combo of any of the following 3 wouldve been better Sutil Petrov and Senna. Those drivers still bring in money but also are ok drivers. Maldonando is just Poo.

    Maybe im wishful i dont know, but i do hope they are on the way back up. The have renault engines and have brought in Coughlan to the technical team. Hopefully Senna can show some sort of promise and they can grab a few points here and there and push back up the midfield.

    I sure hope that they'll be back up the front soon, and not just making up the numbers, or even fold/be taken over when Frank retires.


    Thoughts?

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  2. Golding

    Golding Team Captain

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    I know Williams are struggling for money so need pay drivers, but i think keeping Rubens wouldn't have been too bad.

    To have a driver with his experience would be good for a team rebuilding. I mean theyve lost Sam Michaels & Patrick Head, some consistancy would have been good?

    The sooner Maldonado is out the better...
  3. ManWithNoName

    ManWithNoName GOAT

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    Pastor did better than Rubens in 2011. If he (Pastor) hadn't been viciously assaulted by Lewis at Monaco, he would've wound up with more points than Rubens too.
  4. Herbs

    Herbs Team Captain

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    Nah that wasn't Lewie's fault, just ask a Pom.;)




    :eek:
  5. GiantForce

    GiantForce Senior List

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    Hamilton's fault ;) :p
  6. Team DJ

    Team DJ All Australian

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    apart from a year in an unbeatable Brawn (unless you are vettel).
    Rubens has been a hack since he left Ferrari. Which is very sad.

    Pastor looked ok at some races and dismal in others. I dont think he has what it takes to be an F1 driver atm. He couldve used an extra year or 3 in junior formulas.

    I wouldve liked to see Sutil Senna.
  7. BomberFletch31

    BomberFletch31 Team Captain

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    As much as I disagree with Williams' choice to ditch Hulkenberg for Maldonado, it seems to me that Maldonado out-performed Barrichello in 2011, and if anything, deserves to keep his seat in place of Barrichello. Unfortunately for Williams, they couldn't secure the services of Raikkonen. Sutil only wanted a 1 year deal, whereas Williams wants a longer term deal. Petrov? He's probably a marginally better option than Senna. Not sure why he wasn't selected, though. I don't think he was even rumoured to be linked to a Williams drive.

    I would dearly love to see Hulkenberg back at Williams. The question is whether he wants to go back there after Williams unceremoniously dumped him for a pay driver.

    I also started watching F1 during Williams' glory years - well, 1994, specifically, and it is indeed a shame that they are where they are now. I saw them win 2 driver's titles and 3 constructor's titles from my first four seasons as an F1 fan. That said, I'm still going to buy the Williams 2012 replica t-shirt, proudly sporting the Williams logo. I'm a Williams fan, and that'll never change.

    As a Williams fan, I can't help but be optimistic about this year, despite the mediocrity of the drivers' talents. The revival of the Williams-Renault partnership brings hope. Renault will be a huge improvement over the old Cosworth, and with new blood in the technical team, I think we have every reason to be confident for this season. I'm thinking 5th in the constructor's title race. It should be an achievable target.

    Williams F1 - FIA Formula 1 Constructors Champions 1980, 1981, 1986, 1987, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997 ...... 2013? ;)
  8. hammertime#8

    hammertime#8 Team Captain

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    Williams hit rock bottom when they had Nakajima. At least Senna and to some extent Maldonado have potential.
  9. Simple Jack

    Simple Jack All Australian

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    I remember seeing the quoted figure that Maldonado brings was 180 million (pounds/euros/USD cant remember which) over 4 years.

    It would take a very, very good driver to bring more 'value' to Williams than that.
  10. imadodgyumpire

    imadodgyumpire Team Captain

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    Fitzroy Lions.
  11. BomberFletch31

    BomberFletch31 Team Captain

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    Who would Williams merge with?

    I see your point, and I guess the comparison is quite valid. I just hope it doesn't end up the same way - and I'm convinced it won't. This year should be the turning point for Williams. We hit rock bottom last year, so the only way forward is up. With Renault engines, and a new tech team, I'm confident that we'll move up the grid significantly. In my view, 5th in the constructor's title race isn't out of the question.

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  12. imadodgyumpire

    imadodgyumpire Team Captain

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    From a distance, the culture that made them winners is long gone, I'm saying not long after Renault left in '97 and I can't see that coming back since Frank and Patrick will have less and less involvement, it's "their" team, not saying them being there will bring them back to the top.

    You see now you, as a fan, are hoping that, maybe, they'll finish 5th and that'll be a good result, right? There was a time, long before you started supporting them, where 4th was a disaster. That culture and drive is not there anymore, I'm sorry to say, I certainly don't like writing that. However, reading British forums, there was a consistent theme, from people who I'll trust were in the know, as much as you can on the internet, that were saying that Sam Michael has completely stuffed that team well and truly. They weren't praising Adam Parr highly as well and he'll finish off the team.

    I would say, as an observer, something happenend in the late '90s, other than losing Renault, that has put the team on a downhill course, even though they won a few races and threatened to win both titles at one stage, this might have covered up their "issues" that may've not been obvious. In 2000, they hired Jenson Button to drive for them, for instance. At the time, this was a strange choice I thought considering, not that long before, in consecutive seasons, they were good enough to hire Nigel Mansell, Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna. All of a sudden, they choose a 20 y/o kid with 2 years of car racing for his GP debut season? What was he going to do? They weren't as strong as they were in the early 90s, but Jenson isn't as good as the other three now, let alone in his debut.

    Something happened then, I don't know what, the partnership with BMW may've covered up a few holes but, even if they finish 5th next year, I'm afraid, it's, most likely, small spike upwards on their way to crashing even further down.
  13. BomberFletch31

    BomberFletch31 Team Captain

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    Adrian Newey left half way through 1997, too. While it's hard to say that one person leaving would have had that much of an impact, look at Newey's record: he designed championship winning cars at Williams, then McLaren, and now Red Bull. That man is a technical genius, if there ever was one.

    And yes, I do remember a time when not winning was a disaster. I remember Williams not winning a race between 1998 and 2000, and finishing 5th in the constructor's championship in 1999 was a disaster. So, when I say that I hope Williams will finish 5th, I'm being realistic: in light of the current situation at the team, it's going to take time to bounce back.

    But as for hiring Button in 2000, what choice did Williams have? Schumacher and Hakkinen are tied to their respective contracts at Ferrari and McLaren, Villeneuve wanted to do a Schumacher with BAR (and failed miserably), and Hill had retired after performing like a mere shadow of his former self in 1999. Montoya wasn't available until 2001. There were no more world champions on the grid. If memory serves, that second drive in 2000 was to be decided by a shoot out between Button and Bruno Junqueira. The fact that Button won means that Williams made the right choice. Had they hired Junqueira, things would've been worse.

    But no, I'm not sure that I agree Williams' downfall began in the late 90s. Sure, the fact that Renault and Newey left had hit the team hard during 1998 and 1999, but a new partnership with BMW was looming, and there was light at the end of the tunnel. Some time in 2005, Williams and BMW had a bitter split, and in my opinion, that was the beginning of their downfall. Cosworth and Toyota were never going to get us back to the winning ways (why did Williams not go back to Renault after the BMW split?), neither was hiring Nakajima. Webber and Rosberg left for greener pastures (let's face it, who can blame them, Williams were in disarray at the time), Hulkenberg showed promise but was inexplicably dumped in favour of Maldonado, and now Barrichello has made way for Senna.

    The fact that Williams are now left with two 'pay drivers' is not for want of trying, though. Williams tried, and failed, to secure the services of Raikkonen. While it has been rumoured that Williams were not willing to allow Raikkonen to take shares in the team, I wonder if Williams' lack of performance might also have something to do with their failure to secure Raikkonen. Maybe Williams should've tried harder - let Raikkonen have a stake in the team, if need be. These are desperate times, and desperate times call for desperate measures.

    There is light at the end of the tunnel, though. I'm almost certain of that. The Williams Renault partnership of 2012 might not be anywhere near the all-conquering Williams Renault partnership of the 1990s. A few years down the track, however, and anything can happen. Let's not forget that the all-conquering Red Bull outfit also uses the same Renault engines that Williams will be using this year. It's a very capable engine, so let's see what the Williams designers can do with their car design.
  14. imadodgyumpire

    imadodgyumpire Team Captain

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    Looking over the 1999 season on wiki and seeing who was available and seeing who changed teams for the following season. Mika Salo, Jean Alesi, Olivier Panis and even Bruno Junqueira would've been a better short-term choice.

    No...no no no no no no no! Who picks a driver to race an F1 season based on a shoot-out? There's a chink in mentality right there! Jenson had one season in each of British fford and F3 and that's it. He was ok in F3 but wasn't outstanding and would've been better off with a second year in it.

    Button was nowhere in 2000, not even mildly threatening RSchumacher, not even being close to a podium and just a single, pissy 4th in Germany. He was underdone and it took him longer than normal to become a respectable GP driver. In some cases, despite winning a title, it wasn't til last year he was accepted as one.

    Junqueira, despite being slower in that test, would've been a much better option. He had a lot more experience in a GP car, more experience in more powerful cars in longer races. Even if he hadn't ended up as a GP winner/champ, he would've been a lot closer to RSchu, created a lot more opportunities for a podium finish and even picked off at least one, I reckon. Winning the 2000 F3000 series is a reflection of what I'm trying to say. Had Button even competed in F3 that year, it's not definite he would've won it.

    A snowflake in the late-'90s, becomes an avalanche post-'05.

    This is what I'm saying about a change of culture. They hired Nakajima because it was necessary to keep factory engines from Toyota and Toyota's weren't even that good. I don't know if you know this but, in the late-'80s, Williams rejected using the best engines in F1, Honda, which they were already using, because it meant they had to have Nakajima's father drive for them! That attitude change doesn't happen by accident, even if it seems unrelated.
  15. BomberFletch31

    BomberFletch31 Team Captain

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    Alesi was past his prime. Salo and Panis - granted, they could've been good. I'm not convinced about Junqueira, though. I noticed on Wiki that he had only 8 wins from 101 starts in champ car. And while it's true that with the benefit of hindsight, Junqueira did in fact win the F3000 championship in 2000. But how were Williams to know that at the beginning of the year?

    I don't agree. I thought Button's debut was 'ok'. Nothing remarkably spectacular, but he didn't exactly crash and burn either ... unlike his second year. Button was going to score a point at Albert Park on debut until engine trouble foiled him. That was despite qualifying 21st. He finished in the points on six occasions that season. I will admit perhaps that Salo and Panis would have been better choices, but Button was always going to be a stop-gap measure until Montoya became available. So whoever took the seat in place of Button would presumably be only offered a 1 year deal, knowing that they will make way for Montoya the following year. For some drivers, that would have been a deal breaker.

    I'm not convinced that Junqueira would have fared better than Button had he been given the seat instead, despite winning the F3000 title in 2000. Aside from Webber and Alonso, nobody on the grid that year went on to make a name for themselves in F1. If that's the level of talent he had to beat to win the title that year, who's to say that had he made the transition to F1, he would've performed better than Button?

    Besides, one really needs to look at his performance in the 1999 season to understand why Williams didn't hire him. Williams didn't have the benefit of hindsight back then. They weren't to know that he would go on to win the 2000 title. Button's 1999 season in British F3 netted him 3 wins, 3 poles, 4 fastest laps and 7 podium finishes. Junqueira's 1999 F3000 season saw him finish 5th with 1 win, 1 pole and 1 podium.

    I'm not saying Button was good that year. Far from it. Neither Button nor Junqueira were terrific choices for Williams. I'm just saying that I'm not convinced Williams didn't choose the lesser of two evils by hiring Button over Junqueira.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Williams knew at the end of 1997 that they were going to get BMW engines. The hiatus in 1998 and 1999 were a 'means to an end', if you will. The culture at Williams didn't change. They didn't 'settle' for less than a victory. They had a long term plan in place that included getting BMW engines from 2000 onwards. I remember when they launched the 1998 car, they said that they would challenge for the championship that year as they always had. I suppose it was a shock to them when they discovered that they were so far off the pace that year ...

    Yes, I am aware of this. Williams had to use 'Judd' ('dud') V8 engines for 1988 because they refused to hire Satoru Nakajima, and Honda walked out on them. It had occurred to me that this might be what you meant when you say that they had a culture of not settling for second best long before I started supporting them.

    I agree that hiring Kazuki Nakajima in 2007 wasn't the wisest of choices. Hell, it was stupid, period. Nakajima is probably the worst driver to have driven for Williams. I agree that there had been a 'culture change', but I believe it began some time after they so admirably stood up to BMW when BMW wanted to take control of the team.

    Can that winning culture be regained? Possibly. I think that once Williams starts putting better results on the board, the team might start believing in themselves again, and might be in a better position to be more assertive when an outside influence (such as an engine manufacturer) tries to dictate who the team should hire. I think they can start putting in better performance starting this year. This has to be the turning point in Williams' fortunes.
  16. imadodgyumpire

    imadodgyumpire Team Captain

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    I'm sure even you would recognise that, in the first year competing in a bigger class, drivers are inconsistent. They'll then gain some consistency and challenge, even win, the title in the second or third years. Not sure if it's worth debating this but, as a team owner/manager, I wouldn't have been thrilled being forced to choose either and would've liked to seen Junqueira, at least, challenge for the F3000 title. I would've taken almost all "journeymen" over these two at the time. But the part I don't get is, why did Williams allow themselves to be restricted to just choosing these two? They didn't need to.

    Not being a smarta***, not sure how to interpret this. Which one is it? Did Button do "ok" relative to his inexperience or ok by any standard?


    Beating Nicolas Minassian, Webber and Alonso is enough to make it a credible field. (for most people anyway)

    Me! :eek:

    You look back in the history of Williams, there's a pattern that has been disrupted in the late-'90s. After starting in '77 and having initial teething problems, they were able to build themselves up quickly to become the leading team in F1. Then, as a result of having a n/a engine when the turbos were the engine to have, then an initial period to gel with Honda, were able to build themselves up to be the leading F1 team. They were then bought back to the pack by losing Honda, using Judd's and then starting again with Renault, but were able to build themselves up again to best the best team in F1. This time, it was a lengthy, sustained period.

    So they lose Renault and are put back in the pack once more, no biggie, nothing they haven't experienced before. They then build themselves up again to be competitive but they don't win a title this time or a the best team in F1, at any stage. Why didn't it work this time? I don't know, but I'm confident something happened in the late-'90s. Once they split with BMW, it was a mess obviously and they haven't been able to recover since, so far. An analogy I can use is, a person who was once lean and trim but is now fat, tubby. Building up that level of fat doesn't happen overnight. It takes sustained trips to Macca's/KFC over a long period of time to become that size, including when it wasn't obvious in they days when they weren't lean and trim.
  17. BomberFletch31

    BomberFletch31 Team Captain

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    In my book, his debut was 'ok' by any standard. He wasn't that bad.

    In 2000, perhaps. But at the beginning of the year, when Williams was deciding between Button and Junqueira, they weren't to know that Junqueira would win the F3000 title that year. His 1999 season in F3000 wasn't particularly brilliant, either.

    But you're right, it probably isn't worth debating, as neither driver would have been particularly good choices for Williams.

    Point taken, but I don't believe the blame lies entirely at the feet of the Williams team.

    The relationship between Williams and BMW hasn't been all rosy. BMW blamed Williams for having a bad chassis. They (Berger) claimed they had the best engines, and that the only reason they haven't won the championship is because Williams' cars haven't been good enough. Williams, on the other hand, point to exploding BMW engines in the early years of their partnership.

    In 2003, which was Williams-BMW's most competitive year, there was an extention to the engine supply contract which would've taken them to 2009. As we now know, that didn't happen, and the 'marriage' ended in bitter divorce in 2005.
  18. imadodgyumpire

    imadodgyumpire Team Captain

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    Ha, Berger! There you go, that's the problem, they joined a partnership with an organization that Gerhard Berger was a part of! They did well to avoid having him drive for them and enjoyed the most fruitful of any 14 year block in it's history. A lapse in concentration.
  19. ManWithNoName

    ManWithNoName GOAT

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    The same Gerhard Berger who took Minardi, led them into the Toro Rosso era and got them a race win before the "senior" team?

    Yeah, what an absolute spud.
  20. BomberFletch31

    BomberFletch31 Team Captain

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    Why should Berger get the credit?

    In the days when 'car sharing' wasn't illegal, the STRs were nothing more than re-badged Red Bulls with Ferrari engines instead of Renault. If anyone should get the credit, it's Adrian Newey.
  21. imadodgyumpire

    imadodgyumpire Team Captain

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    Hmm, I'll ignore the sarcasm and and focus on the driver who, in 14 seasons of GP did not have the initiative to challenge for the title, at least once. Maybe, 11 of his 14 seasons he drove cars that could challenge for/win races/titles. And even in those 11 seasons, he averaged less than one win a year. But you already took that into account, didn't ya? ;)
  22. centurion

    centurion Club Legend

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    I reckon that will be the key.
  23. Punchy Bassett

    Punchy Bassett Club Legend

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    Been a Williams fan for ages, really hoping the Renault engines can provide a boost, but I fear in five years time I will have to find a new team to go for.
  24. imadodgyumpire

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    Brisbane Williams Football Club.
  25. Team DJ

    Team DJ All Australian

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    Really happy that they are showing some speed this year.

    Would hope they could continue this for the season sticking the car in the back end of the points in most races.

    Could mean they could sign a bigger name driver next season. Maybe a Massa if he leaves Ferrari.