Pratt Charged - No New Threads Please

[The Exorcist]

Does it even matter? Whatever the result Pratt will still work behind the scenes for the club he has already done much for.

Price fixing is a reality in most industries, unfortunately for Pratt he looks like becoming the ACCC's sacrificial lamb.

Good post. And in a sense Carlton is getting singled out again on this morality thing, which is irritating.

A ex-Collingwood board member (Brad Cooper) is also ex-HIH and is serving an 8 year jail term, they're also sponsored by Emirates (human rights abuses in the Persian Gulf, etc), and McDonalds (who in an English Court it was proven exploited children, unnecessarily tortured animals, and abused their employees)

And Pratty's not even convicted and the football world are all over him

 

[BlueYoss]

Pratt personally never admitted to collusion - and he was never charged with collusion. His Company, Visy was charged with collusion and in his capacity as Visy CEO he made an out of Court settlement

The new charges are against him personally for allegedly giving false evidence to the ACCC concerning the investigation about collusion

I am aware of that, but most civil action brought against privately owned companies name major directors and/or shareholders in the action as second and third defendants etc.

Additionally, when settlements are agreed to at mediation, usually all issues between all parties invovled are put on the table for negotiation and when settlement is reached it represents the finalisation of all matters of all parties, so, as I said earlier, it reeks for the ACCC making an attempt at a second pound of flesh for what essentially is the same matter.

However, I find it hard to believe Pratt's lawyers would have overlooked something that could potentially see their client put away for four years when negotiating a settlement with the ACCC.

 

[Ole Gill]

Pratt personally never admitted to collusion - and he was never charged with collusion. His Company, Visy was charged with collusion and in his capacity as Visy CEO he made an out of Court settlement

Thats a fairly irrelevant distinction in the context of a company that is ENTIRELY family owned

 

[Ole Gill]

My understanding is that AMCOR initiated the collusion because they knew they could not compete with VISY, and VISY led AMCOR to believe that they would go along with it but all the while intended to undercut the agreed upon prices to win AMCOR's business. Not so much a matter of ripping off the public, as seizing an opportunity to to backhandedly deal away with a backhanded competitor.

What ever their intentions, VISY engaged in price fixing for periods and made money out of it. Believe me on this.

 

[thedaz47]

He has done the wrong thing, but so do the airlines, the petrol companies, the supermarkets and various other industries with one or two players in it...every time you buy fuel you are ripped off, every time you buy groceries you are ripped off, every time you fly domestically you are ripped off. This is the how the corporate world operates, they come together to rip you and I off and there aint much you can do about it. The ACCC i n their infinite wisdom are after a big scalp to try and turn corporations off this sort of thing and they have targeted the third richest man in Australia as that scalp after the competition lagged to save their own skin...what a fair system that is, you can be the person to instigate the price fix, organise the meetings, agree and then lag in the company you approached and you get off scott free....what a bullshit system. The directors of Amcor should have faced the same penalties as Visy initially. But thats a horse of a different color.

I'm not saying that he is in the right because clearly he along with many other corporations do the wrong thing by consumers daily and the ACCC are there to protect the consumer and catch the cheats, which they are trying to do with Dick. They need a scalp to scare every other major executive and director which operates in similar markets off, this criminal charge is a way of showing others that you can be thrown in jail for this sort of thing one way or another rather than just copping a slap on the wrist fine. Unfortunately for Dick, his family and the CFC there aint no bigger scalp in this situation than Dick Pratt.

you're deflecting from the issue. with all of the stuff that went on and got you guys into the situation you were in from elliot's time (forgive me for not knowing your club's history all that well, as a queenslander) i feel that i'm raising a valid point in questioning whether you would continue to receive money from visy, while pratt's case gets drawn out over several years. on the main board a lot of carlton supporters are doing the same, pointing out faults of others as though it acts as precedent. arguing using precedent should be left to the lawyers, which i definitely am not... though fwiw phantom i am pretty sure that amcor and my mob have parted ways, though i could be wrong. if they had not, i really wish that they would in light of amcor (and to a greater extent visy) about to have their name dragged through the mud.

sorry that i was ambiguous in my question, i will try to reiterate... carlton have had well documented problems with remaining above board in the recent, would it not condemn them to the same derision should they not remove themselves from this situation as best they can?

 

[Pamam]

i can already imagine what Fatrick Smith is writing now!!

that plick is going to have a field day!

 

[Artie Bucco]

My understanding is that AMCOR initiated the collusion because they knew they could not compete with VISY, and VISY led AMCOR to believe that they would go along with it but all the while intended to undercut the agreed upon prices to win AMCOR's business. Not so much a matter of ripping off the public, as seizing an opportunity to to backhandedly deal away with a backhanded competitor.

That's what I heard also, kind of ironic really. Has anything happened to AMCOR?

 

[Ole Gill]

That's what I heard also, kind of ironic really. Has anything happened to AMCOR?

How it works is that the Trade Practices Act has mechanisms that allow one party to the collusion to snitch on the others in return for immunity from prosecution. This is what Amcor did but this immunity rests on them continuing to cooperate against Visy.

So in a sense, VISY were absolutely made the sacrifical lamb because Amcor decided to snitch.

However, this doesn't mean they are immune from being sued and there is currently a $300 million suit against both Amcor and Visy that was issued last year

 

[BlueYoss]

What ever their intentions, VISY engaged in price fixing for periods and made money out of it. Believe me on this.

My previous post on the page:

It should also be noted, that until the results of any future civil cases that either will or will not proceed on this matter, there is NO evidence that Visy and AMCOR have cost any Australian individual or company a single cent above market prices. Any claims of this nature are nothing more than sensationalist tabloid quality journalism (and yes, I include the judges quotes in that category).

 

[thylacine60]

i can already imagine what Fatrick Smith is writing now!!

that plick is going to have a field day!

Courageous, crusading reporter single-handedly brings billionaire cardboard baron to his knees. Queens honours list beckons.

 

[phantom 309]

Pratt personally never admitted to collusion - and he was never charged with collusion. His Company, Visy was charged with collusion and in his capacity as Visy CEO he made an out of Court settlement

The new charges are against him personally for allegedly giving false evidence to the ACCC concerning the investigation about collusion

Is it just me or can anyone else smell former afl heavywieght Graham Samual in this

 

[TerryWallet]

Ole Gill

Your posts on this subject have been spot on. Congratulations.

Dick Pratt has done tremendous philanthropic deeds over his time. But these revelations diminish all that. He was giving with one hand and taking with the other.

There is no excuse for what he did other than pure greed.

He should have resigned after what the judge said about him. He admitted guilt, and only after first lieing and only coming clean after being faced with the evidence against him.

This was massive white collar crime, not something trivial.

Carlton people have understandable affection for Pratt, but he did something totally unacceptable.

 

[Bluebear]

Ole Gill

Your posts on this subject have been spot on. Congratulations.

Dick Pratt has done tremendous philanthropic deeds over his time. But these revelations diminish all that. He was giving with one hand and taking with the other.

There is no excuse for what he did other than pure greed.

My understanding of the situation, which was explained on SEN nicely (not by me) was that......allegedly.......:
AMCOR and VISY were in a price war which had gone so far that they were actually selling below cost on certain products, and not making much money.

AMCOR could see that Pratt would hold out longer and so began the arrangement to fix the price and leave certain customers alone. This allowed the price to come back up above cost and to be sold at a profit.

Then, being sneaky little pricks, AMCOR decided to put VISY out of business by dobbing and walking away.

Didn't quite work but we can now see the end result.

So much for DP "robbing every man woman and child" with "excessive" pricing.......we had a discount for so long and now got upset when we paid a decent price.

It wasn't greed, it was just clumsy and a little naive.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

How it works is that the Trade Practices Act has mechanisms that allow one party to the collusion to snitch on the others in return for immunity from prosecution. This is what Amcor did but this immunity rests on them continuing to cooperate against Visy.

So in a sense, VISY were absolutely made the sacrifical lamb because Amcor decided to snitch.

However, this doesn't mean they are immune from being sued and there is currently a $300 million suit against both Amcor and Visy that was issued last year

Two points. Firstly, the Act allows for the participant that is not the instigator of the cartel to roll over. Amcor initiated the cartel and that is spelled out in Amcor documents and statements from staff involved. The ACCC contended that Visy for the senior partners in the cartel based on the fact they took over most of the organisation after the initial setup.

Second point, does anybody find it curious that all of the companies suing Amcor and Visy were Amcor clients? Visy clients are not suing anybody and have not commented publicly.

Pratt's claims that he was actually going along with Amcor to do the dirty on them have some merit. Amcor ripped off their clients, Visy continued to keep prices to their clients down and against the agreement, Visy tried to acquire Amcor clients. The ACCC and the magistrate said 'hogwash' to this claim but the whole reason Amcor rolled over was because Pratt was NOT honouring the agreement.

Pratt had the smoking gun, a cartel was in operation, but there are plenty of queries as to his true intention. Perhaps Amcor were the real intended victim here.

 

[TerryWallet]

ODN, that is some nice spin but.....

Look, Pratt pleaded guilty, after first trying to deny, once he was confronted with the evidence. The judge was damning in his verdict.

He did what he did. Whether he gets found guilty in this case now , we will wait and see. The best lawyers can do wondrous things. Ask OJ lol.

On a side note, while i have no doubt on Pratt's guilt, Graeme Samuels motives could be queried. His term as commissioner is to be re-negotiated in a months time. There have always been rumblings that he wouldn't be tough enough on the powerful. Pratt is a nice scalp to have while negotiating for a new term.

 

[Marc Shmurf 3]

Pratty will get off hopefully

 

[KarmaGeddon]

ODN, that is some nice spin but.....

Look, Pratt pleaded guilty, after first trying to deny, once he was confronted with the evidence. The judge was damning in his verdict.

He did what he did. Whether he gets found guilty in this case now , we will wait and see. The best lawyers can do wondrous things. Ask OJ lol.

On a side note, while i have no doubt on Pratt's guilt, Graeme Samuels motives could be queried. His term as commissioner is to be re-negotiated in a months time. There have always been rumblings that he wouldn't be tough enough on the powerful. Pratt is a nice scalp to have while negotiating for a new term.

Yes, but maybe the Judge is a socialistic douchebag that thinks that price fixing regulations are Gods gift to man.

No doubt there is a lot of political motivation in all of this.

Regardless, it isn't a "criminal" offence so how can you call it white collar crime?

Dick is being made a scapegoat for bullshit regulation that hardly anybody cares about.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Is it just me or can anyone else smell former afl heavywieght Graham Samual in this

I find it extremely easy to believe Samuel is willing and capable of corrupt vendettas, however I don't believe that would extend to the entire organisaton underneath him.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't pursue a wounded big fish with any excuse for a case though. Some ambitious types will do anything to get a scalp like that on their resume.

 

[AlecDuncan]

On a side note, while i have no doubt on Pratt's guilt, Graeme Samuels motives could be queried.

How could you possibly have no doubt? No-one in the public has seen any evidence yet!

 

[Lukesta63]

Why yellow, Reddddd card em, if they try and rubbish our team, and Richard.

. Im so sick and tired of the filthy supporters trashing him to me all the time, and I've had a gut full.Carn't wait till he is proven inoccent, to shut them the hell up once and for all.
Im rooting for you Dick

Like I said on main board,all the Carlton haters can see is Pratt the Blues Prez.They're all making out to be experts on the cardboard industry,and para-phrasing the unsubstantiated claims of a sensationalist judge.
Like I said,who was sitting around the pub 3 years ago complaining about the exorbitant price of cardboard???And if you go over the court statements you'll find that at the time ,Cadbury-Schweppes and other major cardboard consumers had driven the price of packaging to unsustainably low prices !
So all this bleating from the Carlton-Haters about being ripped off is a crock!

Also since the discovery of the price-fixing has the price of cardboard packaging plummeted has it!!???

Just another round of Carlton bashing off field because now they can't do it on field

 

[KarmaGeddon]

i can already imagine what Fatrick Smith is writing now!!

that plick is going to have a field day!

Yeh, well. Some journalists are good at getting a story and objectively commenting on the facts.

Others are good at slander.....

 

[KarmaGeddon]

Like I said on main board,all the Carlton haters can see is Pratt the Blues Prez.They're all making out to be experts on the cardboard industry,and para-phrasing the unsubstantiated claims of a sensationalist judge.
Like I said,who was sitting around the pub 3 years ago complaining about the exorbitant price of cardboard???And if you go over the court statements you'll find that at the time ,Cadbury-Schweppes and other major cardboard consumers had driven the price of packaging to unsustainably low prices !
So all this bleating from the Carlton-Haters about being ripped off is a crock!

Also since the discovery of the price-fixing has the price of cardboard packaging plummeted has it!!???

Just another round of Carlton bashing off field because now they can't do it on field

Good point. Richard Pratt is a legend. How many families become billionaires from producing cardboard boxes?

Surely the people working for you would have to be happy employees for that to happen.

Not as much can be said about an over-regulatory government.

 

[THE BISHOP]

As hard as this is to say but Dick Pratts behaviour can only be described as outrageous and un Australian to be honest.

He has been great for the Cartlon Football Club but there is simply no excuse for what he has done. Our reputation is still in tatters from the John Elliot era and this latest saga is not helping one bit

 

[KarmaGeddon]

As hard as this is to say but Dick Pratts behaviour can only be described as outrageous and un Australian to be honest.

He has been great for the Cartlon Football Club but there is simply no excuse for what he has done. Our reputation is still in tatters from the John Elliot era and this latest saga is not helping one bit

Thank God for men like Dick Pratt who draw criticism from men who do not know what it takes.

 

[griggisalegend]

Crap. Not my best Friday.

not your best friday? what about mine, free dress at school, got my carlton guernsy smothered in cheese, then got in a fight, and ripped my jumper, AND THEN got a suspension.
i hate fridays.