AFL 360 - Mclure on Lyon's Game Plan Wed 30-5-12

[theGav56]

We went with the very best available coach. His salary is irrelevant unless it is somehow impacting the club. Similarly when we recruited Harvey he became the highest paid assistant coach in history. Personally I don't care.

 

[dmc333]

LOL @ Lyon's logic. The only bloke actually going against the grain this week and not being vanilla was Patrick Smith.

You were hardly going to stand out and be heard when you're bashing Lyon in a week of Lyon bashing.

 

[apuchar]

LOL @ Lyon's logic. The only bloke actually going against the grain this week and not being vanilla was Patrick Smith.

You were hardly going to stand out and be heard when you're bashing Lyon in a week of Lyon bashing.

You guys are doing well

 

[Stronzo]

Loving Lyon's return fire:

"there are a lot of minnows out there who want to be heard"

 

[dmc333]

You guys are doing well

I like you guys, I really do.

Ross Lyon is just a ****ing ****.

 

[freocuz]

I like you guys, I really do.

Ross Lyon is just a ****ing ****.

Hi Harvs.

 

[Kram]

^^ haha, nice one.

 

[Clay Davis]

This notion that a coach coming to a club for money is a bad thing ... why?

I understand it with players. A player has a limited career - by thirty they're usually done. So there's every chance they'll take the money and cruise around deciding to not risk career-threatening injury so they can milk what the club has invested in them for years on end. Call it the Des Headland effect.

But a coach? A premiership winning coach has the ability to stay employed as a coach until he's 60. In Lyon's case, that's another 14 years of earning around the level of $500k per year (probably more, not sure of the specifics of what he's on). Who would coast off the back of that?

I like you guys, I really do.

You should go back to supporting St Kilda.

I'm quite excited to be with Brisbane as Vossy takes us into the future.

Sound judgement.

 

[Jezzitizle]

Our mids are too defensive at bouncedowns. A couple of weeks ago I watched Barlow who was in space run 3 metres so as he could man up on an opposition mid prior to centre bounce. I heard that during preseason Lyon took Barlow aside and said he needed to be more defensive at centre bounces.

How can we win centre clearances when our first intention is to try and negate the opposition centre.

Doesnt mean he has to tag. Maybe its to stop the opposition getting clean clearances.

I guess the thing about changing a gameplan, is its probably right to get the defence right before you work on the offence. Focusing on both together would be hard to balance.

 

[Memories]

I wouldn't care if we were paying Lyon 5 million dollars a year. Just make a gameplan that is exciting and wins Freo games. Don't have a gameplan that only does one, you need one that does both.

If at worst he needs to copy the WCE gameplan then so be it. Who cares. Exciting and winning? We'll all pay for that.

 

[Tazmania]

Doesnt mean he has to tag. Maybe its to stop the opposition getting clean clearances.

I guess the thing about changing a gameplan, is its probably right to get the defence right before you work on the offence. Focusing on both together would be hard to balance.

Agree with this...if sandi get the tap wrong then the opposition just clears is with no contest. By matching up Barlow could win it and run off or contest it if he doesn't get first hands to ball. That's a big lesson to learn for freo a major style change, eg contest every ball you don't get first hands on.

I wouldn't care if we were paying Lyon 5 million dollars a year. Just make a gameplan that is exciting and wins Freo games. Don't have a gameplan that only does one, you need one that does both.

If at worst he needs to copy the WCE gameplan then so be it. Who cares. Exciting and winning? We'll all pay for that.

It'll be exciting when they've worked it out correctly. It looks ugly because they're learning it. Even if they adopt the WC way it would look ugly at this stage.

This is the nature of change. All major changes have an ugly phase.

 

[Pusswah]

Generic comment from the last 5 years about Fremantle: "Gee they play an exciting brand of attacking football, but when are these Dockers going to learn that you have to run both ways and defend?
They really need a work ethic."

How many times have we heard that.

 

[Big Sim]

Media orators constantly need to up the shock value of their statements to catch the attention of either journalists, or a football watching public that is becoming rapidly desensitised to the current levels of sensationalism.

Disturbing how accepting we are of outlets manufacturing news. Case in point the clip for this on the 360 section of Fox AFL is a news report from the same channel. Its a constant circle jerk of aligned media outlets reporting each others BS.

And one wonders why guys like Rendell or maybe even Bailey get fired when the torch is applied. The scrutiny is intense, co-ordinated and completely unnecessary.

Sadly though chaos and scandal are a better attention grab than a feel good story, thus any sign of weakness and the attacks will start in the hope they provoke some genuine drama.

My advice is ignore it. Ruining football, really? GTFO. It isn't great to watch sometimes but the short term pain is definitely worth the potential payoff. Lyons methods worked wonders at St Kilda, who at their best applied both brutal pressure as well as smashing teams off the park offensively.

Personally I hope the people who matter at the club also simply ignore it. WC faced the same barrage re the coach in 2010 and didn't buckle like quite a few clubs have. Has paid dividends.

His opinion had nothing to do with media sensationalism, it was a heartfelt opinion shared by many. I agree with MM that football is entertainment and the Freo-WC game was not entertaining in any way at all. A 3-2 scoreline at halftime more akin to soccer than Aussie Rules. And he did that time and again at the Saints.

And I disagree that he worked wonders at St Kilda. He created a team that after they got his defensive tactic right could murder crap teams and strangle good teams but could not beat really good teams when it counted. Forget the myth of Milne's errant bounce, they were very lucky to get away with a draw in that GF and were shown up in the replay.

Ross Lyon is not a premiership coach and will never be one with his methods.

 

[apuchar]

His opinion had nothing to do with media sensationalism, it was a heartfelt opinion shared by many. I agree with MM that football is entertainment and the Freo-WC game was not entertaining in any way at all. A 3-2 scoreline at halftime more akin to soccer than Aussie Rules. And he did that time and again at the Saints.

And I disagree that he worked wonders at St Kilda. He created a team that after they got his defensive tactic right could murder crap teams and strangle good teams but could not beat really good teams when it counted. Forget the myth of Milne's errant bounce, they were very lucky to get away with a draw in that GF and were shown up in the replay.

Ross Lyon is not a premiership coach and will never be one with his methods.

And yet I enjoyed every minute of the first half against West Coast. Some people like footy played one way and other people like it played other ways. The good thing about the AFL is that different teams play with different styles. Clearly you are taking the Drew Morphett line that because he likes footy played a certain way (bit like basketball) then that is how everyone should like it.
If Lyon isn't a premiership coach, then he is a lot closer to one then most of the other coaches out there.

 

[Outshined]

His opinion had nothing to do with media sensationalism, it was a heartfelt opinion shared by many. I agree with MM that football is entertainment and the Freo-WC game was not entertaining in any way at all. A 3-2 scoreline at halftime more akin to soccer than Aussie Rules. And he did that time and again at the Saints.

And I disagree that he worked wonders at St Kilda. He created a team that after they got his defensive tactic right could murder crap teams and strangle good teams but could not beat really good teams when it counted. Forget the myth of Milne's errant bounce, they were very lucky to get away with a draw in that GF and were shown up in the replay.

Ross Lyon is not a premiership coach and will never be one with his methods.

I honestly struggle to see how you could form that opinion. You can't simply disregard the bounce 'myth', and more to the point, the Saints had all of the momentum towards the end of that game. If anything, Collingwood were lucky to get away with a draw, given they could reload and come back next week on younger legs. Same goes for 2009 when his players choked when kicking for goal at crucial stages. He got them there, and did most things possible let alone from kicking the ball for them.

You want a style of play that won't win you a premiership? Play soft, uncontested, front running football like Fremantle had done since 1995, and Carlton currently still do.

I've always said this, but if you're searching for a scapegoat for our lack of forward prowess, look towards our list manager. St Kilda had Riewoldt, Kosi and Gardiner/McEvoy as forward targets during their run, and guess what? They kicked winning scores. We have Pav, who takes it upon himself to play in the midfield for 90% of the game, two ruckmen who for some reason can't take contested marks in the forward line, and Anthony...

 

[doberman]

And yet I enjoyed every minute of the first half against West Coast. Some people like footy played one way and other people like it played other ways. The good thing about the AFL is that different teams play with different styles. Clearly you are taking the Drew Morphett line that because he likes footy played a certain way (bit like basketball) then that is how everyone should like it.
If Lyon isn't a premiership coach, then he is a lot closer to one then most of the other coaches out there.

I also enjoyed the first half, a good hard contest. Some people only get excited by scoring goals.

 

[apuchar]

I also enjoyed the first half, a good hard contest. Some people only get excited by scoring goals.

Frankly Doberman, I was riveted. Glad others enjoyed it too.

 

[Stronzo]

I also enjoyed the first half, a good hard contest. Some people only get excited by scoring goals.

Yeah I didn't understand the criticism of the first half. I think a lot of the noise was from people who didn't watch and looked at the scoreline and aligned assumptions with the score.

To me it was an arm wrestle until the eagles broke through and started playing the game on their terms rather than ours.

In time our structures will hold out longer and stronger, and when that happens all of this melodrama will be forgotten.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

His opinion had nothing to do with media sensationalism, it was a heartfelt opinion shared by many. I agree with MM that football is entertainment and the Freo-WC game was not entertaining in any way at all. A 3-2 scoreline at halftime more akin to soccer than Aussie Rules. And he did that time and again at the Saints.

And I disagree that he worked wonders at St Kilda. He created a team that after they got his defensive tactic right could murder crap teams and strangle good teams but could not beat really good teams when it counted. Forget the myth of Milne's errant bounce, they were very lucky to get away with a draw in that GF and were shown up in the replay.

Ross Lyon is not a premiership coach and will never be one with his methods.

That's nuts mate. You don't get away with a draw in a grand final.

You either draw it or you don't . The bounce of the ball away from Milne was ridiculous. If it had bounced in any other direction it was Milne's for the taking. That means they were good enough to win the Grand final.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Fox league teams last night and the panellists were generally praising Ross Lyon's Freo side.

Dermott Brereton, after highlighting a particular passage of play which started with Michael Johnson in the defensive goal square pinpointing the ball to Pav and culminating in a Zac Clarke goal, said when Freo have mastered Lyon's game plan they will be scary good.

Other panellists agreed.
So opinion seems divided and after only nine games nobody can say we are a failure. Generally we have been good but suffer from lapses.

 

[Memories]

And with your assertion that he did it time and again at the saints got soccer scores is crap.

Saints 2009. Percentage of 155, 3rd total points scored
Saints 2010. 4th best percentage
Saints 2011. A bad start to the year but won 8 of the last 11 and kicked over 100 four times in that part of the season.

So with your soccer scores, sorry mate but your dreaming.

You do know how percentage works right? If a team can strangle another team (like the saints did to the crap teams) and make them not score much then your percentage seems impressive. What isn't impressive is the saints being #4 for scoring in 2009 even though they were the #1 team. Their other years are even worse.

Go check geelongs points FOR in their reign. You know, the team that actually won 3 (nearly 4) of the last 5 grand finals.

 

[Polly]

His opinion had nothing to do with media sensationalism, it was a heartfelt opinion shared by many. I agree with MM that football is entertainment and the Freo-WC game was not entertaining in any way at all. A 3-2 scoreline at halftime more akin to soccer than Aussie Rules. And he did that time and again at the Saints.

Ive never heard a bigger pile of sanctimonious crap from a try hard panel in my life!
Was Mark McLure whining about the game he loves when Carlton were tanking there ass off not so long ago, I don't think so.
As for Whately, the guy can't stop himself from laughing whenever he gets a chance to stick the boots into Freo, still has offended from Round 1 I guess!
I enjoyed the first half last week, high pressure football. It wasn't just Fremantle creating congestion!

 

[Memories]

Yes I do understand about percentage. I'll make the position clearer for you since you want to get trivial. They kicked the 4th highest score that year, Lyon was bagged out for soccer scores and those aren't soccer scores. Hell, 12 other teams (16 in the competition that year) would have loved to have the saints total points for that year.

Don't tell me that Ross didn't want higher output in the forward line as that would be nonsense and it is what cost the Saints a grandfinal that year.

It's not boring to watch players tackling, running hard and doing all they can to turn the ball over - without defence it is a boring game... There is no shame in attempting to stop the opposition from scoring, so get over it.

I have no problem with defense, why would you think I do? I just have a problem with putting 14 Freo players around the ball everywhere on the ground. It's ugly seeing 28 players around the ball, this isn't defense it's a mess, it just makes it harder to do ANYTHING which is why it works in limiting offense (usually).

Real defense is 1 on 1 battles, two players going at it, the best player wins. This is what people want to see, not scrimmages for 3 hours and soccer scores. I'm also sure Ross Lyon wants to kick massive scores but the problem is his gameplan isn't conducive to it. You can't make all your players run into defense and then score from it without WAITING for them to run back forward. It's exhausting, clogged up football that few want to watch.

Most supporters here realize that we need to keep men up the ground more to kick to when we win the ball in defense but Ross Lyon still insists on a full field press. It's just ugly football that is losing us games and losing us supporters/neutrals.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

His opinion had nothing to do with media sensationalism, it was a heartfelt opinion shared by many.

It had everything to do with sensationalism.
The rest of your post has been pretty thoroughly rebutted, but this comment especially sticks in my craw.

The degree of negativity describing Lyon's gameplan has increased over time. First it was defensive football, then negative, then people were describing it as boring/painful to watch etc. Claiming that it is "destroying the game" or similar is not only hyperbole, but completely ignores contextual reasons or mitigating factors which led to this individual low scoring match.

So the striking or over emotive language used, devoid of any contextual consideration is the very definition of sensationalism. It was a vulgar and shallow attention grab.

EDIT: actually scrap dat I am gonna get a little pissy. St Kilda went 14-0 in 2009, playing high scoring, high energy football. This culminated in a win against the also undefeated Geelong at Etihad stadium (who were still relatively at the height of their powers). It was a thrilling match (I was there) and maybe one of the most exciting and high standard home & away games I have ever seen. They narrowly lost the GF that year and drew in 2010. Sure they didn't snag a GF, but that does not support your outrageous attempt at historical revisionism. Stick to the ****ing facts when making an argument.

 

[Purplrrr]

It had everything to do with sensationalism.
The rest of your post has been pretty thoroughly rebutted, but this comment especially sticks in my craw.

The degree of negativity describing Lyon's gameplan has increased over time. First it was defensive football, then negative, then people were describing it as boring/painful to watch etc. Claiming that it is "destroying the game" or similar is not only hyperbole, but completely ignores contextual reasons or mitigating factors which led to this individual low scoring match.

So the striking or over emotive language used, devoid of any contextual consideration is the very definition of sensationalism. It was a vulgar and shallow attention grab.

EDIT: actually scrap dat I am gonna get a little pissy. St Kilda went 14-0 in 2009, playing high scoring, high energy football. This culminated in a win against the also undefeated Geelong at Etihad stadium (who were still relatively at the height of their powers). It was a thrilling match (I was there) and maybe one of the most exciting and high standard home & away games I have ever seen. They narrowly lost the GF that year and drew in 2010. Sure they didn't snag a GF, but that does not support your outrageous attempt at historical revisionism. Stick to the ****ing facts when making an argument.

Hooray! I agree! It remains to be seen whether freo can ever get there. I'm in a negative mood, so I think we'll eventually do better.... just about as it is all too late. But to reduce what the saints achieved in those years is pretty weak.