Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[ErnieSigley]

The current regime has nothing to do with previous ones. Just because we've had to wait, it doesn't mean we'll never have to again .

It's not faith. I'm not saying he will win us a premiership. But you don't sack a guy after a year and a half when he has inherited a list that was in obvious need of repair.

There have been plenty of coaches sacked before 18 months and replaced by better ones.
I don't believe this continual inherited list bs, we had problems but so does every club. We aren't the only club that made recruitment mistakes. The bigger fallacy is that they stopped as soon as Bmac appeared.

 

[archibald23]

In the real world, coming close isnt good enough. People remember our club as the struggling club with 1 flag to show for its endeavours.. No one is going to care or remember that we came close 7 times to making a GF.. Its simply just not good enough. Before this club will ever see another day flag it must go through a culture change. That has been the biggest problem with why this club hasnt reached the ultimate success

In comparison, Ive never stated that McCartney's game plan is successful, merely that with the amount of changes, personnel and playing focus its a little difficult to guage now until he's run his contract so we can see where he got the club in 3 years

Having watched the dogs play since the mid 80's, I also share this view. No matter the team / talent / coach, we have always missed that competitive culture where we are confident against everyone and feel like a team that should be feared. You can see it in the way other clubs treat us, we have had some great games (against the saints in our most recent prelims), but they never feared us and always thought they could get across the line.

I may have taken @Mike2009's response out of its original context with my explanation, but thats how I see it.

 

[the dog's kennel]

I don't quite understand how "honoring a contract" became "patience". This place shouldn't be a rabble. Competently run football clubs don't fire coaches after 18 months - especially coaches who aren't even under a lot of media and member pressure. For better or worse, we gave the guy a 3 year contract. Unless the place falls apart, we should honor it. And then re-evaluate.

And remember Ernie - it could be worse. I'm just imagining how you'd be doing your 'nana if you were a Saints supporter. (I know you're probably thinking that the Dogs are worse off. But I'm quietly confident that if you were a Saints supporter your head would be exploding into a thousand little pieces. )

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Whilst there is little to no evidence that we are moving forward.

I find it odd that some people feel this way. I guess I am a glass half full guy but I see so much positive in the way so many of our guys are developing.

Roughy has turned into a very good defender
JJ has shown heaps
Talia is looking great
Libba has turned into a clearance machine (well beyond what anyone could hope for at his age)
Dahl continues to shine
Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat all look great. As do Hunter and Prudden yet to come in.
Stevens and Smith have both shown some great signs too.
Jones has definitely improved and I actually feel really positive about him now.

These are all very young and the future of our team. But there is also experienced players like Griffen and Minson that have gone to super-elite levels.

This has all occurred under Macca's watch. I just can't see how anyone can feel as though there is no sign of progress.

 

[Proffessor]

In the real world, coming close isnt good enough. People remember our club as the struggling club with 1 flag to show for its endeavours.. No one is going to care or remember that we came close 7 times to making a GF.. Its simply just not good enough. Before this club will ever see another day flag it must go through a culture change. That has been the biggest problem with why this club hasnt reached the ultimate success

In comparison, Ive never stated that McCartney's game plan is successful, merely that with the amount of changes, personnel and playing focus its a little difficult to guage now until he's run his contract so we can see where he got the club in 3 years

Once again I have to disagree with you Mike, on pretty much every point you made there.

Firstly, in the "real world" coming close still matters, the winner doesn't take it all. Our period of contention helped build up membership, media exposure and sponsorship. It also fostered an increase in the number of kids wearing Bulldog jumpers around the western suburbs. Things that have already started to fall away dramatically during McCartney's tenure.

Why do people blame our culture and say we need it to change? We were close enough that a couple of different umpiring decisions, a single team selection decision or even just a lucky bounce of the ball could have got us over the line and into a grand final. When you consider our financial position, you could even argue that we only got that close because of the strong competitive culture that existed at the time.

We don't need to wait three years to gauge McCartney's performance, we have had a year and a half, and the results are clear. In the "real world", contracts are regularly terminated early if they aren't working out well for both parties.

 

[gimp!]

Once again I have to disagree with you Mike, on pretty much every point you made there.

Firstly, in the "real world" coming close still matters, the winner doesn't take it all. Our period of contention helped build up membership, media exposure and sponsorship. It also fostered an increase in the number of kids wearing Bulldog jumpers around the western suburbs. Things that have already started to fall away dramatically during McCartney's tenure.

Why do people blame our culture and say we need it to change? We were close enough that a couple of different umpiring decisions, a single team selection decision or even just a lucky bounce of the ball could have got us over the line and into a grand final. When you consider our financial position, you could even argue that we only got that close because of the strong competitive culture that existed at the time.

We don't need to wait three years to gauge McCartney's performance, we have had a year and a half, and the results are clear. In the "real world", contracts are regularly terminated early if they aren't working out well for both parties.

Incorrect.

 

[yebiga]

We began the 2010 season as premiership favourites

Our Fading super star Brad Johnson injured in preseason and was rushed in for round 1 and re-injured
He made several desperate attempts to regain fitness and was again and again permitted to play lame

This completely incompetent, weak, stupid management of Brad Johnson is unforgivable. Of course, like an old boxer he wants to play at every opportunity. But a good coach, a coach capable of winning a premiership would have stood up and made sure Brad was 100% fit. There was no reason to even play him until round 18 if need be.

Then we have our management of Prima Donna Ackermanis. Really! Our coach, who recruited him and who had managed to maintain harmony within the team despite Akers routine nonsense, decides that an article he had written had to be dealt with now! Right now in this year 2010 where we are favourites he decides to not manage the situation but to make this a front page distraction and the end of Akers career. This was always going to be Akers last year anyway.

A competent Coach, a coach who does not get stage fright when the prize is in his grasp would have got the team together and obtained harmony for the greater cause.

Yes Eade is a good coach and maybe now with time to reflect, he may realise how thoroughly incompetent he was in 2010. Just so we are clear, I rate his coaching in 2009 as exemplary but in 2010 it was pure self sabotage.

It is pigheaded to suggest that the Western Bulldogs could avoid a severe fall after 2010, and it is just nonsense to paint Bmac as another P Rhode.

A coach should be judged firstly on what he extracts from the pool of talent available and then after 3 years on the pool of talent he has developed. At this stage, I give BMac a 6/10. I am very hopeful of better to come but not convinced as yet either.

But I want us to give him a chance to convince me.

 

[Bulldog1954]

Roughy has turned into a very good defender
JJ has shown heaps
Talia is looking great
Libba has turned into a clearance machine (well beyond what anyone could hope for at his age)
Dahl continues to shine

Agree with much of what you say but Dahl hasn't kicked on at all this year. His defensive pressure is still good but he is getting the footy less then last year and is nowhere near as damaging. Having a disappointing season

 

[_M_16_]

Agree we should target an experienced coach for a "director of coaching" role, come on Gordon you said you want to pay up heres your chance!

On a side not, if Macca doesn't last maybe we could target Holger? Genius!

If anyone read this weeks edition of Inside Football? It pretty much put a nail in the debate over the worth of experienced coaches over inexperienced coaches.

Some people are using the lone argument, that we will only win a flag with a coach who has won one before, and that an inexperienced coach cannot get there.

During the years 1990-1999, untried coaches had a combined winning percentage of 48.5% vs 52.2% for experienced coaches in the same period.

Since the year 2000, untried coaches have gone with a 50% winning percentage vs experienced coaches, trailing with an overall winning percentage of 46.3%

Mark Thompson, John Worsfold, Paul Roos, Alistair Clarkson, Chris Scott, have all won Premierships, having not been a head coach previously. And a couple of others, along with Ross Lyon have managed to build competitive teams. Pretty sure a couple of those coaches, were called out by fans to be sacked, and that they were no good. One ended up with two premierships, and the other now has his team inside the 8.

Same being said for the 90's, with a couple of inexperienced coaches winning a flag eventually.

ALL coaches start inexperienced at some point. And inexperienced coaches have more flags than experienced ones in recent times. Which puts to bed the issue that winning a flag previously, or having previous head coaching experience is everything. Bmac was at Geelong for two flags, head coach or assistant, you see and learn the same things, as you are there and work together. So he knows how the team was built and how a premiership is won. It took Geelong a few years become good, not 1.5 years. So it is not like he has no idea at all.

And not all coaches are good tacticians from the time they begin either. A new coach is also learning as he goes, and he to makes mistakes along the way and tries new things, see what works and what does not. You can only build tactics around your team and the type of players you have at your disposal. We would be limited in the moves we make, and the things that we can do. Even a good tactician makes bad mistakes time to time. It takes time to get to know your players, what they can and cannot do, what they do and how the respond in this and that situation. Who is stronger and weaker vs different style players. What impact would changing this players role have on the rest of the team structure, etc. A good tactician means nothing if you don't have the cattle to do it all, thus he will be restricted in what he can do for the time being.

Bmac was said to be a good developer of young players, even from those at Geelong, obviously he got the best out of some players over there. Id trust the words of those who came from there, and saw what he did, then bitter "supporters" He may not win a flag, but he is the right coach we need to build a young list. Whether he gets to lead the team after that, or someone else takes over.

That also being said. It has been pointed out as well, that quiet a few of these 'experienced' coaches, are not good developers of young players/good list managers. They come in, and lead teams after someone else has done the hard work, and leaves the team again back where it started. There was even an interesting debate on SEN the other day, at how there are two to three categories of coaches, for different stages a club is in. From those who are best suited for development, and those at the top end, and the rest in between. I don't think one coach was mentioned as being good at all of those areas.

I think people are just being to harsh, because they are still living in the late 2000's, and think our team is still that good, and that it doesn't take time to rebuild, particularly if the list management was poor as it was, which means it will take longer to fill the holes in.

 

[_M_16_]

I find it odd that some people feel this way. I guess I am a glass half full guy but I see so much positive in the way so many of our guys are developing.

Roughy has turned into a very good defender
JJ has shown heaps
Talia is looking great
Libba has turned into a clearance machine (well beyond what anyone could hope for at his age)
Dahl continues to shine
Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat all look great. As do Hunter and Prudden yet to come in.
Stevens and Smith have both shown some great signs too.
Jones has definitely improved and I actually feel really positive about him now.

These are all very young and the future of our team. But there is also experienced players like Griffen and Minson that have gone to super-elite levels.

This has all occurred under Macca's watch. I just can't see how anyone can feel as though there is no sign of progress.

Agreed. A majority of these players that have been pointed out to 'not show things week in week out' are usually all the duds drafted during Eades regime. The fact that most of our recruits in the past two years are looking more at home, and looking better players than most of the others have show in years, means something must be going right. Clear out more of the deadwood, and continue to recruit well as we have recently, the team will start to come together more and more. You cannot try and change over the whole team at once. Look what it did to Melbourne.

We have also been more competitive in games much longer than last year, and some of our losses were the result of one bad quarter, than a whole game.

The fall didn't start with Bmac and because of him, it started in Eades last year and because we recruited poorly. I even said to a friend that I could see us starting to fall before it happened, and that we were a little overrated list wise and lacked depth. Once all our senior players quit, or reached their peak, the drop off was always inevitable.

For some reason people seem to think that is not part of the cycle in AFL, and that we should be back in the top four in only two years. If we are not, blame anyone we can.

 

[ErnieSigley]

I find it odd that some people feel this way. I guess I am a glass half full guy but I see so much positive in the way so many of our guys are developing.

Roughy has turned into a very good defender
JJ has shown heaps
Talia is looking great
Libba has turned into a clearance machine (well beyond what anyone could hope for at his age)
Dahl continues to shine
Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat all look great. As do Hunter and Prudden yet to come in.
Stevens and Smith have both shown some great signs too.
Jones has definitely improved and I actually feel really positive about him now.

These are all very young and the future of our team. But there is also experienced players like Griffen and Minson that have gone to super-elite levels.

This has all occurred under Macca's watch. I just can't see how anyone can feel as though there is no sign of progress.

Most of those would have occurred under anyone's watch.
Young rookie players get experienced. Genius.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Come on Ernie, address _M_16_'s posts above. All of the points made, not just a phrase or two that you twist to your purposes. Is there ANYTHING at all in them that you can accept?

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Agree with much of what you say but Dahl hasn't kicked on at all this year. His defensive pressure is still good but he is getting the footy less then last year and is nowhere near as damaging. Having a disappointing season

I know a few people feel this way but if you watch his games closely he is one of our most valuable players IMO. His possession stats are down a bit but he has been receiving a lot of attention from the opposition this year (a testament to his importance), so he is playing under a lot more pressure which combined with his own immense defensive pressure is very valuable to team.

 

[krisholio14]

Most of those would have occurred under anyone's watch.
Young rookie players get experienced. Genius.

I see you do a lot of bagging Ernie, but I never see you offer anything positive, or any reasonable alternatives to the current set up that is any more certain of success.

 

[krisholio14]

I know a few people feel this way but if you watch his games closely he is one of our most valuable players IMO. His possession stats are down a bit but he has been receiving a lot of attention from the opposition this year (a testament to his importance), so he is playing under a lot more pressure which combined with his own immense defensive pressure is very valuable to team.

Is that Kashmiri naan in your avatar Dhal?

 

[ErnieSigley]

I see you do a lot of bagging Ernie, but I never see you offer anything positive, or any reasonable alternatives to the current set up that is any more certain of success.

Look harder then. Obviously your problem not mine.

 

[ErnieSigley]

Come on Ernie, address _M_16_'s posts above. All of the points made, not just a phrase or two that you twist to your purposes. Is there ANYTHING at all in them that you can accept?

If young players get more experienced, how does that show the coach is an better than the next or the past?
Will give the Roughead move as Bmacs.
Minson is getting more games, more about him maturing and no other options than the coaches doing.
Griffen was a great player 2 years back.

 

[TedDougChris]

Come on Ernie, address _M_16_'s posts above. All of the points made, not just a phrase or two that you twist to your purposes. Is there ANYTHING at all in them that you can accept?

It's easier to sit and throw stones than it is to offer up alternatives. And far easier to ignore anything Ernie says as being biased and completely ignorant when it comes to footballing matters.

Just ignore, it'll make your BF experience the more enjoyable...

 

[VitalDread]

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[_Mike_]

Once again I have to disagree with you Mike, on pretty much every point you made there.

fair enough, we are all entitled to express our views without being professed right or wrong

Firstly, in the "real world" coming close still matters, the winner doesn't take it all. Our period of contention helped build up membership, media exposure and sponsorship. It also fostered an increase in the number of kids wearing Bulldog jumpers around the western suburbs. Things that have already started to fall away dramatically during McCartney's tenure.

Talking in terms of sponsor dollars and members list (which at 2010 was close to 35,000 - a club record), had we won a flag in that time period (2008-2010), I would be more inclined to think that

- our membership numbers would be around 40,000
- we would attract bigger sponsorship deals
- the rate of televised games would be much higher than what they are now

In saying that, the current position of the club is worse than it was then. There is absolutely no question about that however when making that assessment it should be understood that there have been a number of changes withion the club itself in terms of staff and playing list. These are major contributors.

Why do people blame our culture and say we need it to change? We were close enough that a couple of different umpiring decisions, a single team selection decision or even just a lucky bounce of the ball could have got us over the line and into a grand final. When you consider our financial position, you could even argue that we only got that close because of the strong competitive culture that existed at the time.

Why do people blame our culture? I think thats fairly easy to understand. We havent been a club that has been hard on its players, instilled a level of self respect and been subject to playing favourite sons over players who earnt theeir spots.
We have been a club which has relied heavily on luck in the past but luck will only get you so far. The current BMAC tenure aside, I could safely say that a large majority of WB supporters are fed up with the previous management of players/recruiting and soft stand on not making players accountable for their form. Can you honestly sit there and tell me that losing 7 prelims in a row is ok, because we were close?

We don't need to wait three years to gauge McCartney's performance, we have had a year and a half, and the results are clear. In the "real world", contracts are regularly terminated early if they aren't working out well for both parties.

My comment about three years was based on McCartney's current contract length (not - lets wait another 3 years). I thought thats was very clear in how it was implied based on the perception/response of other posters in this thread.

Anyway, I respect your opinion that your not happy with the current standing of the club under McCartney but that in turn should be reciprocated when I say that in my opinion, I'm patient enough to wait until his first contract expires before making a decision in haste as to whether or not he is good for the future of the club

 

[Butane]

Roughy has turned into a very good defender
JJ has shown heaps
Talia is looking great
Libba has turned into a clearance machine (well beyond what anyone could hope for at his age)
Dahl continues to shine
Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat all look great. As do Hunter and Prudden yet to come in.
Stevens and Smith have both shown some great signs too.
Jones has definitely improved and I actually feel really positive about him now.

This has all occurred under Macca's watch. I just can't see how anyone can feel as though there is no sign of progress.

Just going to play devils advocate here and say that all clubs can name half a dozen young players that have gotten better in the last 18 months(bar maybe Melbourne). That's what youngsters do, they get better.

The proof in Macca's ability to coach will come late next year. Like I said most players improve so I'm not impressed by any of that but can he build a game plan/team that can take us to the top? So far we have no evidence of that BUT that's because he doesn't have the right cattle playing together for long enough yet - so we wait.

 

[_Mike_]

Just going to play devils advocate here and say that all clubs can name half a dozen young players that have gotten better in the last 18 months(bar maybe Melbourne). That's what youngsters do, they get better.

and people also need to remember that there is a thing called a match selection committe and it doesnt solely fall on the shoulders of the coach to select who plays or doesnt. Maybe we dont have the right people on that making the right decisions?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Have a read of Bob Murphy's column today and see how complicated the game has become over the past few years. Not easy for a coach to have overnight success with the amount of teaching that has to go into a group of individuals with varying levels of talent, development and ability to absorb the instructions, in order to get them to gel as a team.

 

[_Mike_]

Have a read of Bob Murphy's column today and see how complicated the game has become over the past few years. Not easy for a coach to have overnight success with the amount of teaching that has to go into a group of individuals with varying levels of talent, development and ability to absorb the instructions, in order to get them to gel as a team.

If you look at Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, Essendon over the last decade and a bit (when they each respectively won flags) the majority of them went through a stage of personnel changes en-meass and teaching the next generation of players a particular style of play. Even if the club decided that BMAC wasnt the way to go, any other coach would need to go through the motion. Your ability to learn to read the play comes with experience.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

Every week Earnie gets someone. Stop Feeding the troll people, cross a different bridge. If his irrational, one eyed and record on repeat posts get you hot under the coller, just use the ignore feature. I personally enjoy reading his posts, his misery cheers me up.