Mega Thread Hot Topic - Drugs and AFL

[MrMeaner]

I should also say that as much as I don't like the bloke, I don't think Hird should be facing the sack for enforcing his right to appeal the decision.

 

[bomberclifford]

I should also say that as much as I don't like the bloke, I don't think Hird should be facing the sack for enforcing his right to appeal the decision.

What would happen if Essendon sack him and he goes on to win the appeal?
Would he then have a claim against them or would just paying out his contract negate this?

 

[MrMeaner]

What would happen if Essendon sack him and he goes on to win the appeal?
Would he then have a claim against them or would just paying out his contract negate this?

He may have a breach of contract case against them regardless. Obviously that is largely avoided by paying him out.

 

[Powerage]

Nah. His counsel would have gone away and considered the judgment before giving advice on the prospects of an appeal. Both Hanks QC and Harrington are good operators (as are Young QC - despite my earlier mockery - and Button).

I disagree. Call me a cynic, but generally if there is more money to be made, lawyers always seem to find further paths to take clients down.

 

[MrMeaner]

Yeah, what do I know? Only the people involved.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Nah. His counsel would have gone away and considered the judgment before giving advice on the prospects of an appeal. Both Hanks QC and Harrington are good operators (as are Young QC - despite my earlier mockery - and Button).

MrM if I read yesterday's article correctly - which is behind a paywall today and cant read again - Young QC said Hird/Essendon could win an appeal - but Young was Essendon/Hird's lawyer at the trial. Wouldnt you get someone's opinion before making a call rather than just accepting the losing QC's opinion post judgement?

 

[MrMeaner]

MrM if I read yesterday's article correctly - which is behind a paywall today and cant read again - Young QC said Hird/Essendon could win an appeal - but Young was Essendon/Hird's lawyer at the trial. Wouldnt you get someone's opinion before making a call rather than just accepting the losing QC's opinion post judgement?

Short answer: not usually.

Longer answer but first a clarification:

Neil Young QC appeared for Essendon with his junior Catherine Button (instructed by Maurice Blackburn Lawyers). Peter Hanks QC appeared for Hird with his junior Nick Harrington (instructed by Ashurst).

It's essentially up to the parties whether they want to get an opinion from another counsel about an appeal. Occasionally, they get that external opinion, but mostly they do not. it does not always follow that counsel who appeared at first instance will always advise a client that they should appeal or that they would win an appeal (more on that below). While you might be disappointed with a result, at times the judge's reasoning is so impeccable that it is essentially judgment-proof.

On reports that Young's advice said that Essendon would win an appeal, I find that very hard to believe. No decent counsel provides that such emphatic advice (and Young is very, very good counsel). That is because there are no certainties in litigation and especially on appeal when you have lost at first instance. Most likely, Young's advice would have concluded that Essendon had 'reasonable prospects of succeeding on appeal but it would have also set out the risks (including the likelihood of getting orders shutting the whole investigation down). The person who reported the advice to the press is likely to have embellished that to 'would win' when leaking. Your speculation is as good as mine as to why they would do so.

 

[Steve Dore]

Short answer: not usually.

Longer answer but first a clarification:

Neil Young QC appeared for Essendon with his junior Catherine Button (instructed by Maurice Blackburn Lawyers). Peter Hanks QC appeared for Hird with his junior Nick Harrington (instructed by Ashurst). ......

Neil "Cliff" Young and Nick "Kevin" Harrington.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Short answer: not usually.

Longer answer but first a clarification:

Neil Young QC appeared for Essendon with his junior Catherine Button (instructed by Maurice Blackburn Lawyers). Peter Hanks QC appeared for Hird with his junior Nick Harrington (instructed by Ashurst).

It's essentially up to the parties whether they want to get an opinion from another counsel about an appeal. Occasionally, they get that external opinion, but mostly they do not. it does not always follow that counsel who appeared at first instance will always advise a client that they should appeal or that they would win an appeal (more on that below). While you might be disappointed with a result, at times the judge's reasoning is so impeccable that it is essentially judgment-proof.

On reports that Young's advice said that Essendon would win an appeal, I find that very hard to believe. No decent counsel provides that such emphatic advice (and Young is very, very good counsel). That is because there are no certainties in litigation and especially on appeal when you have lost at first instance. Most likely, Young's advice would have concluded that Essendon had 'reasonable prospects of succeeding on appeal but it would have also set out the risks (including the likelihood of getting orders shutting the whole investigation down). The person who reported the advice to the press is likely to have embellished that to 'would win' when leaking. Your speculation is as good as mine as to why they would do so.

Thanks for the answer MrM. Your answer reminds me I shouldn't have blindly accepted what the article in The Age said. I remember about 12 months after starting my accounting career I had to read a 40+ page QC's opinion on appealing a tax case to either the Supreme Court or Federal Court for a large client of the firm that I worked on. IIRC it involved about $50mil of tax + potential penalties. There were no black and whites despite the overall opinion being their were very good grounds to win an appeal. I'm pretty sure they appealed but 18 months later I had left and the appealed hadn't been heard.

 

[Killer Power]

MrM if I read yesterday's article correctly - which is behind a paywall today and cant read again - Young QC said Hird/Essendon could win an appeal - but Young was Essendon/Hird's lawyer at the trial. Wouldnt you get someone's opinion before making a call rather than just accepting the losing QC's opinion post judgement?

Young QC sounds like a really shyte rapper name

 

[tribey]

I suspect Essendon have received (or are seeking) legal advice as to whether they can sack Hird for exercising his appeal rights. As I have said previously, I am uncomfortable with them doing so. I suspect that it would end up in a(nother) shit fight if they did sack him for this.

It's just a freaking mess.

How Essendon didn't just clean house over the nature of the murky program itself will be one of those things that people will look back on in 10-20 years and shake their heads.

 

[_Christoh_]

It's just a freaking mess.

How Essendon didn't just clean house over the nature of the murky program itself will be one of those things that people will look back on in 10-20 years and shake their heads.

I get whiplash thinking of what has been going on there now and how it seems to just continue to play out as a train wreck in slow motion, so not sure about the 10-20 years thing.

 

[tribey]

I get whiplash thinking of what has been going on there now and how it seems to just continue to play out as a train wreck in slow motion, so not sure about the 10-20 years thing.

I'm talking clean hindsight totally free of the current actors and with all the emotion/bias taken out of it. To let it so much as evolve beyond floating the idea at a meeting will be seen as elite herpderp on a grand scale.

 

[MrMeaner]

It's just a freaking mess.

How Essendon didn't just clean house over the nature of the murky program itself will be one of those things that people will look back on in 10-20 years and shake their heads.

Yep. As anyone who knows anything about politics knows, it's the cover up that kills you.

 

[pastmyprimus]

Essendon have made a lot of bad decisions during this sorry saga but decision to extend Hird's contract for another two years is up there. The very person who the club's protected from day one has turned on the club and could walk away with a big payout if as expected he's sacked.

 

[MrMeaner]

Essendon have made a lot of bad decisions during this sorry saga but decision to extend Hird's contract for another two years is up there. The very person who the club's protected from day one has turned on the club and could walk away with a big payout if as expected he's sacked.

I can think of reasons they may have had to re-sign him. I'm sure you can too.

 

[pastmyprimus]

I can think of reasons they may have had to re-sign him. I'm sure you can too.

Can I phone a friend.

 

[MrMeaner]

Can I phone a friend.

To paraphrase LBJ: It was better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside pissing in.

Of course, whilst he's now in the tent, he's pissing all over the place.

 

[Portology]

the same stuff James injected then complained about the side effects. it's a drug for (among other things) tanning and erectile dysfunction. may or may not be WADA-illegal, ASADA couldn't say, apparently the jury is still out on whether having a spontaneous immediate on field is 'performance enhancing' or not. The AMA and TGA have issued 'health warnings' over the 'unregulated use' of the stuff.

culture

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl...a-interim-report/story-fnp04d70-1227079584643

 

[Smartys Power]

Did I just read on the Essendon board someone asking for prove that Port have a better culture than Essendon?

 

[Chewy316]

Did I just read on the Essendon board someone asking for prove that Port have a better culture than Essendon?

Yeah I couldn't help but to laugh when I read it. I'm convinced that the only reason they have threads that are Essendon supporters only, because they are so delusional that they can't help but not want to come back to reality. They can't handle the truth.

 

[Moist Biscuit]

Did I just read on the Essendon board someone asking for prove that Port have a better culture than Essendon?

Yeah a great culture the dons have. Come to Essendon and we will get you banned for 2 years. Pretty enticing offer I thought!

 

[Smartys Power]

Yeah a great culture the dons have. Come to Essendon and we will get you banned for 2 years. Pretty enticing offer I thought!

Why would I go play for a team that's in it's premiership window and prides itself on having a really tight playing group when I can go play for Essendon?

 

[Doctor Feel]

Did I just read on the Essendon board someone asking for prove that Port have a better culture than Essendon?

"Gee I wish my club was more like Essendon."

...Said no one, ever.

 

[Moist Biscuit]

Why would I go play for a team that's in it's premiership window and prides itself on having a really tight playing group when I can go play for Essendon?

Because if you play for Essendon you can
(1) get banned for 2 years
(2) have the most self obsessed man coaching you.
(3) have the most delusional supporters ever
(4) be injected with unknown substances
(5) have teammates leave and then wonder why
(6) get kicked out of the finals
(7) believe that the club has done nothing wrong and that James Hird is god