Universal Love Greatness

[Trickster]

They had a coach who was pulling in the same direction as the club which would've helped immensely.
Stubbornness would be my guess for not making the move by the way.

I agree with this year that a selfless coach helped hawthorn get over the line in the GF, but my thoughts are more about history also.

Why is it we get there and cannot seem to win most times, while Hawthorn will get there and win mos of the time even agst the odds (2008 / 2011).

I have this belief that if we were playing anyone other than Stk in 2010, we would have somehow lost that drawn GF. The fact it was Stk whose record is worse than us probably saved us - and is also a touch ironic given our records that neither of us could win that first GF.

 

[Trickster]

Stubborness yes but vindictiveness as well, a spiteful and vengeful man to the nth degree.

If you doubt ferret out some footage of his pressers when some young smart arse reporter asks what he considers an impertinent question.

Firstly there's the dagger eyed haughty 'how dare you address that to me' look.

Then there's the calculating glint of pure malice.

Then the shaft is delivered and the look of satiated cruelty flickers in the depths of his eyes.

Finally the look of total dismissal.

I saw enough of him as a player before he took to coaching, vicious and vindictive then and leopards don't change their spots.

The decision to leave an injured player not only on the field but on a rampaging Hawkins was nothing more or less than a coldly calculated tactic to strike at the heart of the club that had nurtured and shown faith in him for 11 long, long years of list building and off field bullsh1t from his favourites.

I agree that he's absolutely ruthless, is very poor in media conferences and his persona from afar doesn't hold him in good light but I'd like to give him some benefit of the doubt in regards to that GF. I'm not saying he didn't coach poorly but I'd think it's more of 'we're either winning or losing my way' rather than anything sinister.

Still everyone's entitled to their own thoughts but it's quite sad that most of us don't respect our last premiership coach. For the record I too am filthy with him for that season and for reneging on a deal made when most were thinking he'd be sacked anyhow.

 

[Trickster]

Yeah it would be interesting. I still think Geelong would have been good enough to get the job done regardless but that mental edge can never be ruled out. In a similar vein, I don't think that Geelong having the wood over Hawthorn for all those years was necessarily a fluke.

Agree on Mick as well. The 2011 Grand Final is obviously the most famous case but his matchday coaching on that day really wasn't out of the norm for him over his Collingwood coaching career when you think about it. How often over the years did the supporters say "why didn't Mick make this move?" "why didn't Mick do this?" and the most famous one of all, and the reason many of us though we couldn't win a flag under Mick, "Mick doesn't have a plan B". Over much of his career we got frustrated at Mick for not changing up his matchday coaching. The more I come to think of it , did he ever change things up over 2010 and 2011 also? I'm thinking he didn't but the fact was that our plan A was too good for pretty much every team anyway, ain't broke don't fix it and all that. His stubbornness is one of his greatest strengths and also probably his greatest weakness as a coach. On one hand he never second guesses himself and what he's doing (which is what you want in a coach) but on the other hand it's like he refuses to realise when something isn't working. Like you, I think we saw the serious ramifications of that approach in the 2011 Grand Final but I also can't buy that he threw a Grand Final to piss off Eddie. Stagnant matchday coaching is nothing too far out of the ordinary for MM unfortunately. I can't say I've followed Carlton too much lately but does anybody know if he's coaching the same way there?

Fair points! I'd give him credit for revolutionising the Leigh Brown role but for all we know it could have been an assistant's idea and wasn't really match day.

With regards to Carlton, he's probably curbed their flair and tried to get them to play boundary line footy which wasn't their style. He's effectively savaged the list from when he took over but it remains to be seen whether he gets another contract should they miss finals again.

 

[jonbe54]

I agree that he's absolutely ruthless, is very poor in media conferences and his persona from afar doesn't hold him in good light but I'd like to give him some benefit of the doubt in regards to that GF. I'm not saying he didn't coach poorly but I'd think it's more of 'we're either winning or losing my way' rather than anything sinister.

Still everyone's entitled to their own thoughts but it's quite sad that most of us don't respect our last premiership coach. For the record I too am filthy with him for that season and for reneging on a deal made when most were thinking he'd be sacked anyhow.

I understand and respect your desire not to see our last premiership coach as a Q!%!@#T^@^ and please don't mistake my opinion - on a professional level right up until that final run into the '11 finals series he was top notch and I had total respect for his on field performances - lets say in the coaching box at least.

But when he got on national TV and canned the club and savaged the man who basically saved his coaching reputation - if not his career - he lost it.

And me.

Totally unprofessional and utterly childish.

 

[Mukesh]

I spoke to Matty Lappin at our VFL final and asked him the same question, he said it was brought up in the box but not acted upon.
I said so Mick ignored it and he just went silent.

I'm kinda glad for Chris' sake it wasn't...not sure anyone could have reigned in Hawkins once he was on a roll....

 

[jonbe54]

I'm kinda glad for Chris' sake it wasn't...not sure anyone could have reigned in Hawkins once he was on a roll....

That is the single most inane comment I have heard regarding the GF.


Let me spell it out s l o w l y for you.

HOW THE HELL DO YOU IMAGINE HE GOT ON THAT ROLL??????????????????????

BECAUSE HE WAS PLAYING ON A RESTRICTED PLAYER

 

[Mukesh]

That is the single most inane comment I have heard regarding the GF.


Let me spell it out s l o w l y for you.

HOW THE HELL DO YOU IMAGINE HE GOT ON THAT ROLL??????????????????????

BECAUSE HE WAS PLAYING ON A RESTRICTED PLAYER

So you're saying Tarrant should have played on Hawkins from the begining ?

 

[jonbe54]

So you're saying Tarrant should have played on Hawkins from the begining ?

JEEZUZ how hard is it??

Tarrant needed to be shifted onto Hawkins when Reid got injured, nothing could be simpler.

 

[CFC2010]

So you're saying Tarrant should have played on Hawkins from the begining ?

No he shouldn't have started on him from the start because he owned Podsaidly up until he broke his arm and we were in the game at that point.

Then the game changed after half time and Hawkins was on fire (still can't believe it) while Tarrant sat in the pocket being a spectator. If your best backman is injured then logic suggests you try your second best?!?

Is that hard to understand?

 

[Trickster]

JEEZUZ how hard is it??

Tarrant needed to be shifted onto Hawkins when Reid got injured, nothing could be simpler.

Reid was already under a cloud going into the match and was clearly struggling so he should have been pulled out once podsiadly went down rather than be persisted with.

The flow on effect was enormous from that injury. It stopped our run in the second, Tarrant was then wasted on Trent West effectively, Mitch Duncan came on kicked a long goal in the third and had an impact while our top heavy backline saw Maxwell with a mismatch running around after Bartel who would drag him high half forward. I would have been prepared to take the punt with Maxwell on West once Tarrant would have been shifted to Hawkins and had the fresh legs of Fasolo injected earlier rather than in the last when we were all faltering.

 

[mike123]

Have to agree and still think in retrospect that Geelong really were the best team in 2011. Stumbled upon an interesting line of thought on the soccer board giving the blueprint on how to win the EPL. Basically, just beat the teams that you should beat to get up there and get the results against the rivals around you (i.e. the top 4) to get the title. While it looks pretty and dominant, piling on the goals against relegation battlers, minnows and also-rans really doesn't mean much, if anything, in the grand scheme of things. Obviously EPL is first past the post so is a bit different but I think Collingwood fooled people by spanking teams that really didn't matter in the grand scheme of things while progressively getting worse against the teams that mattered. Compare Collingwood and Geelong's seasons (I used end of the H&A ladder for simplicity):

Collingwood:
2nd - Geelong: 3, 96, 38
3rd - Hawthorn: 41, 3
4th - West Coast: 52, 20
5th - Carlton: 28, 19
6th - St.Kilda: 57, 19
7th - Sydney: 6
8th - Essendon: 30, 74
9th - North: 87, 117
10th - Bulldogs: 48
11th - Fremantle, 80
12th - Richmond: 71
13th - Melbourne: 88
14th - Adelaide: 43
15th - Brisbane, 18
16th - Port Adelaide: 75, 138
17th - Gold Coast: 54

Geelong:
1st - Collingwood: 3, 96, 38
3rd - Hawthorn: 19, 5, 31
4th - West Coast, 8, 48
5th - Carlton: 2
6th - St.Kilda: 1, 28
7th - Sydney: 27, 13
8th - Essendon, 4
9th - North: 66
10th - Bulldogs: 61
11th - Fremantle: 11
12th - Richmond: 62
13th - Melbourne: 186
14th - Adelaide: 52, 11
15th - Brisbane: 29
16th - Port Adelaide: 79
17th - Gold Coast: 66, 150

For a start, both sides went 22-3 for the year. I'd think that any premiership side "should" beat the teams outside the top 4, Collingwood went 18-0 outside the top 4 and Geelong went 15-2, both very good records that'll allow a top 4 spot. What about games against the other contenders though? Collingwood went 4-3 against the top 4 and got progressively worse while Geelong went 7-1 and got better against the top 4. Sure, Collingwood had the brutal percentage and 8 wins over 70 points compared to Geelong's 4 but Geelong just got the job done when it mattered with a little less pizzaz (although the did hand out a couple of hidings of their own also).



Still love this video though!!!!!!

Geelong weren't the best team in 2011 they just got lucky. Pendlebury's match winning goal was taken off him gave Geelong there first win. In the second game we were without Davis and Shaw our 2 best rebounders from defence, Maxwell our captain and best leader and third man up spoil from defence and without Thomas who IMO was having a better year Pendlebury. 3 players who were walk up starts from defence and one of our best midfielders were didn't play the second game, we were never a chance. Then in the grandfinal, Reid, Jolly and Beams were injured. Beams didn't play, Jolly and Reid did play but porly and you could tell injury took a toll on there performances.

A fully fit Collingwood side would have beaten them.

 

[jonbe54]

Geelong weren't the best team in 2011 they just got lucky. Pendlebury's match winning goal was taken off him gave Geelong there first win. In the second game we were without Davis and Shaw our 2 best rebounders from defence, Maxwell our captain and best leader and third man up spoil from defence and without Thomas who IMO was having a better year Pendlebury. 3 players who were walk up starts from defence and one of our best midfielders were didn't play the second game, we were never a chance. Then in the grandfinal, Reid, Jolly and Beams were injured. Beams didn't play, Jolly and Reid did play but porly and you could tell injury took a toll on there performances.

A fully fit Collingwood side would have beaten them.

Agreed mike though there are a proportion of rabid 'injuries are no excuse' acolytes on this board and you will never convince them otherwise.

 

[Tbone McGraw]

2011 was our armegeddon. Unfortunately we should have won, but our coach didn't want us to win.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Stubborness yes but vindictiveness as well, a spiteful and vengeful man to the nth degree.

If you doubt ferret out some footage of his pressers when some young smart arse reporter asks what he considers an impertinent question.

Firstly there's the dagger eyed haughty 'how dare you address that to me' look.

Then there's the calculating glint of pure malice.

Then the shaft is delivered and the look of satiated cruelty flickers in the depths of his eyes.

Finally the look of total dismissal.

I saw enough of him as a player before he took to coaching, vicious and vindictive then and leopards don't change their spots.

The decision to leave an injured player not only on the field but on a rampaging Hawkins was nothing more or less than a coldly calculated tactic to strike at the heart of the club that had nurtured and shown faith in him for 11 long, long years of list building and off field bullsh1t from his favourites.

Jonbe you are absolutely delusional if you think MM deliberately lost the GF... Why would he deliberately hand back a flag that would have put him up with the likes of Sheedy in terms of flags coached?

Ridiculous.

 

[Jelly Bean]

2011 was our armegeddon. Unfortunately we should have won, but our coach didn't want us to win.

To think MM didn't want us to win is laughable. Do you seriously believe that? Why would he not? He is an ego-driven man who craved more premierships to his name.

 

[jonbe54]

Jonbe you are absolutely delusional if you think MM deliberately lost the GF... Why would he deliberately hand back a flag that would have put him up with the likes of Sheedy in terms of flags coached?

Ridiculous.

JB we have been down this road before and I'm well aware of your opinion, I think it's fruitless discussing it further as 'the twain shall never meet' - to misquote the great bard.

Let's just give it a miss and move on shall we?

 

[Jelly Bean]

JEEZUZ how hard is it??

Tarrant needed to be shifted onto Hawkins when Reid got injured, nothing could be simpler.

Reid got injured two weeks before...

There is no doubt it was a coaching mistake that MM decided to persist with the AA CHB instead of moving Tarrant onto Hawkins. And maybe Reid should have put his hand up to either not play or be switched (we applauded Presti for doing the same thing). But agree, it was a coaching mistake.

The ridiculous part is that you suggest it was a deliberate action by MM to cost himself a premiership flag...

 

[jonbe54]

Reid got injured two weeks before...

There is no doubt it was a coaching mistake that MM decided to persist with the AA CHB instead of moving Tarrant onto Hawkins. And maybe Reid should have put his hand up to either not play or be switched (we applauded Presti for doing the same thing). But agree, it was a coaching mistake.

The ridiculous part is that you suggest it was a deliberate action by MM to cost himself a premiership flag...

I told you to give it a rest JB, I won't again cut it out.

 

[Anzacday]

Whilst I don't subscribe to him deliberately not making changes in order to lose.
I do believe he didn't make the move(s) as he was blinded by his own self belief and ego.

 

[PTpie]

Pretty sure Maxwells' injury had a serious effect on his ability and confidence. To be honest not just the late season hand injury but for most of 2011 Maxy was beat up and lucky to be on the ground.

We talk about the Reid injury and the fact that Tarrant wasn't moved onto Hawkins as deciding factors in 1 game, personally I think the effect of those injuries over the season on the captain drained him and wrecked his confidence. This leads to the players losing confidence in him and second guessing. Sapping the confidence and belief of the entire team.

Maxwell, Reid and Tarrant in that game were all senior, experienced players and could have made the positional switch themselves (Maxwell has done it many times when a player is being beaten) but chose not to. I do wish Malthouse had made the switch but the players could also have made it happen and didn't.

I don't blame anyone, we just didn't capitalise on Geelong's misfortune like they did on ours on that day.

Still, I would have loved to have seen Neon Leon holding up a premiership cup with a medal around his neck, loved watching him play.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I told you to give it a rest JB, I won't again cut it out.

Jonbe - if you are entitled to peddle those nonsensical statements on this forum (which you are) about a coach deliberately losing a grand final, I am entitled to express my opinion on your position and point out that it makes absolutely no sense... I would suspect the vast majority agree with me.

But you are right - you did tell me to give it a rest, and I am pleased you have committed to not doing it again.

 

[jonbe54]

Pretty sure Maxwells' injury had a serious effect on his ability and confidence. To be honest not just the late season hand injury but for most of 2011 Maxy was beat up and lucky to be on the ground.

We talk about the Reid injury and the fact that Tarrant wasn't moved onto Hawkins as deciding factors in 1 game, personally I think the effect of those injuries over the season on the captain drained him and wrecked his confidence. This leads to the players losing confidence in him and second guessing. Sapping the confidence and belief of the entire team.

Maxwell, Reid and Tarrant in that game were all senior, experienced players and could have made the positional switch themselves (Maxwell has done it many times when a player is being beaten) but chose not to. I do wish Malthouse had made the switch but the players could also have made it happen and didn't.

I don't blame anyone, we just didn't capitalise on Geelong's misfortune like they did on ours on that day.

Still, I would have loved to have seen Neon Leon holding up a premiership cup with a medal around his neck, loved watching him play.

The coach carries the can - ALWAYS. His was the deciding call, he refused to make a desperately needed and blindingly obvious change.

There can be only one interpretation.

 

[jonbe54]

Jonbe - if you are entitled to peddle those nonsensical statements on this forum (which you are) about a coach deliberately losing a grand final, I am entitled to express my opinion on your position and point out that it makes absolutely no sense... I would suspect the vast majority agree with me.

But you are right - you did tell me to give it a rest, and I am pleased you have committed to not doing it again.

Right that's it ignored.

 

[mike123]

What I thought was MM biggest coahing mistake was playing the best 22 the first half of the year and flogging crap teams but in the second half we debuted, Fasolo, Sinclair and Young. Those three should have debuted in the fist half of the year and put pressure on selection whilst in the second half of the year we play our best 22 and get momentum going into the finals.

 

[Tbone McGraw]

To think MM didn't want us to win is laughable. Do you seriously believe that? Why would he not? He is an ego-driven man who craved more premierships to his name.

Maybe i worded it wrong but if Mick really wanted to win, he would have made the Reid move.

I believe he was so egotistical that destroying our chances to win was more important to him than another premiership. He had effectively already left the club.

Anyway we may have to agree to disagree.