Opinion Mick Malthouse

[DaVillaBlues]

Like or not, following Loguidace's comments to afl.com.au.today, Mick must see the season out as coach (unless he decides to walk away) or we lose more credibility as a club. The president, for once, needs to honour his word..

 

[Paulski19]

I think he's great.
He also had McLeod as an assistant and I think they worked really well together
Had respect of the players and got them all playing together well
Intense and well spoken too

Imagine we got McLeod to the club in some way....even just to work 1 on 1 with Yazza lol

 

[Paulski19]

Like or not, following Loguidace's comments to afl.com.au.today, Mick must see the season out as coach (unless he decides to walk away) or we lose more credibility as a club. The president, for once, needs to honour his word..

Robinson on SEN was saying today he has no doubt Mick will coach out the season because of the type of character MLG is. He honours contracts.

 

[DaVillaBlues]

Robinson on SEN was saying today he has no doubt Mick will coach out the season because of the type of character MLG is. He honours contracts.

Delighted to hear that, we have a club president (finally) who doesn't succumb to the media vultures gunning for Mick or the fans who want Mick sacked now.

This club hasn't had a great history of honouring contracts, I am pleased they are giving Mick the courtesy and respect he deserves.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Robinson on SEN was saying today he has no doubt Mick will coach out the season because of the type of character MLG is. He honours contracts.

He does however come accross as the kinda guy who says - i'm not going to break this contract.....because I'm a man of integrity, but you wont be coaching next year, so do us all a favour and walk.

 

[Navy Cream]

Some excellent suggestions to fill positions here, I like it. I will say though, if Adam Goodes comes within touching distance of the joint, I may be out. For good. Don't want that self serving prick anywhere near the place.

Right on, SLC!!! I'd rather Warwick Capper than that knob Goodes.

 

[Paulski19]

Interesting that the 3 blokes flying the flag and getting a fine for the "melee" at half time were Cripps, Whiley and Smith....

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Is it about respect or money? Cos at least if Mick coaches out the year we're not paying out yet another coach's contract after we've kicked them out the door.

 

[Navy Cream]

Interesting that the 3 blokes flying the flag and getting a fine for the "melee" at half time were Cripps, Whiley and Smith....

That's a positive start. 3 younguns with a little bit of.........eh, HEART about them. Need more of this!!!

 

[pepalenko]

Right on, SLC!!! I'd rather Warwick Capper than that knob Goodes.

Um what am i missing on Goodes?

 

[Navy Cream]

Um what am i missing on Goodes?

Nothing, I just don't like him.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Robinson on SEN was saying today he has no doubt Mick will coach out the season because of the type of character MLG is. He honours contracts.

Yeh ... like the time he put a contract out on Paullie 'Tight-Lips' Gambino .....

 

[Malifice]

It seems to me people have a big problem with Malthouse's style of doing things. Thought I'd cover some popular issues.

1 - Too many defensive players. Not enough mids to rotate.
This I agree with. You need 6-7 quality footballers who can go into the midfield in modern football. We have Judd, Gibbs and Murphy and that's it. We can play a quarter and a bit before we ran out of legs and the opposition start running over the top of us. On Saturday with Cripps stepping up we played nearly two good quarters where we controlled the game. Add two or three more and perhaps we could play 3 or 4 quarters where we control the game. But then we are running into territory where these guys need to be able to play other positions. Luckily we know Murphy and Gibbs can and Judd can play forward a bit too. Making a change here is hard, our next best mids are Carrazzo and Curnow and they are playing as Taggers and IMO making very little contribution to our play making. The next best are youngsters in Mark Whiley who hasn't had a great preseason but is just starting to play some VFL and Nick Graham who has been good without being great and needs to be harder at the ball. We lost Robinson and Mclean, both weren't stars but they performed as forwards who could go through the midfield and did it moderately well and we are suffering from their absence. They were meant to be replaced by Thomas who got injured before firing a shot and Whiley who suffered from injuries in the preseason. So Carrazzo and Curnow as our best available get picked.

We see Ellard and Armfield in the side. Naturally defensive types. Again they have been picked as best available because none of our young guys or reserve players are doing any better than they are. Personally though I would not select them. People do have a point here but I fee this will change, particularly as more youngsters push their way into the side. It wasn't Malthouse who developed Carrazzo, Curnow (to an extent), Armfield and Ellard into defensive players. I can't see any of our youngsters being developed into taggers yet.

2 - Playing around the boundary.
When we're up and going we play up the middle and do it fairly well but that doesn't last long (refer to part 1). Malthouses Collingwood used the middle offensively plenty of times but also went boundary side a lot. All the AFL teams use the boundary, you can force any side to the boundary if you defend well enough. The difference is some teams have more leeway when it comes to turning it over in the middle than others. We have very little leeway which is fine. We don't intend to be boundary side all the time. We use the middle when it's on but we are very poor at creating leads and lose players. Basically if we aren't using heavy attacking midfield rotations we can't outrun sides and if we can do that then we can't create options to use in the middle of the ground. Force us to go up the middle and we'll see turnovers in the middle and even the worst AFL sides are very good at scoring from turnovers in the corridor, just watch the game and see for yourself!

FWIW This is actually our plan B, it's the way we're forced to play far too often due to a lack of quality and run and daring personalities. Mick doesn't prefer the boundary, he wants us to go direct when it's on and we do turn it on, but not for long.

3 - Not playing a style that suites our side.
We played very open one way running footy with a lot of speed under Ratten, we used small forwards well and pace well. It worked against lesser sides and teams like Geelong who opted to go more one on one rather than pushing numbers behind the ball and zoning/flooding. It never really accounted for the better teams or defensive teams and never stood up in finals or in situations where we were not allowed space. Yeah we played finals with it, we never did much good in finals.

But lets stop and think about the negative implications this had, coaching for the team we had rather than coaching to win finals and big games. We built a team that couldn't win big games, that lacked consistency and were easily undone by defensive tactics. We accommodated for poor quality players like Joseph, Thornton, Bower, Lucas. It allowed lazy, soft and undisciplined players to succeed and look good and they did look good and do well, except when it counted. But players like Waite, Garlett etc never did a lot against the real good sides but would slaughter the poor and middle range ones. We found ourselves with a load of state quality players, a game plan built to accommodate misfits who couldn't stand up in big games and in a position where we were only taking the bare minimum draft picks and were crippled by player contracts to players who shouldn't have even been on the list. Some cry black and blue that you need to play a game style that suites your players. I'd prefer we play one that suites finals football which we are. I'd prefer we play for the flag in 5 years time and not for next week or the week after. We were never going to do any good with Betts, Garlett etc as our main goal kickers in finals.

Our game plan not only suites finals footy but requires a good side to implement it successfully. The greatest thing about it, and it's the biggest difference between Ratts and Mick is that it's the best style for weeding out players who aren't up to it. I think this is what's made Mick such a good list manager and made Ratts such a poor list manager. Ratten re-signed a hell of a lot of borderline players that should have been traded or de-listed. Had he done this it would have likely put the pressure on our recruiters a lot earlier and perhaps saved his skin and ours but he didn't. Mick just delists them and we go to the draft/trade table and have another go at it. If we keep drafting average footballers, Micks not going to change his game plan so we can feel good about ourselves and win a few extra games, he's just going to get rid of them.

We're not playing in a fashion Malthouse wants us to play. We do have a plan B and that's what we are constantly using. plan A is go direct, move it quick and that's what we do for small parts of games. Plan B is slow it up and go wide, this is what we're forced to do. The bomb it long part of our game is also plan B.

Stick to our guns, delist rather than accommodate borderline players and aim for a premiership, not just to win home and away games. It's not about getting the best out of the players you have, it's about building towards a premiership and doing the opposite has cost us in the past. This is just how the AFL works.

Our gameplan and style is crucial to our list development. If you can't do any good at this sort of footy, you're not the sort who will do any good against good sides, in finals or play well in a grand final. Simple as that.

4 - The old Game's gone past Mick we were good in 2011.
News flash, we finished 5th in 2011. A team which Malthouse built up from last finished 1st in 2011. 2011 was one of the weakest years I've ever seen in AFL footy, especially compared to this year where it's one of the strongest. The teams we finished ahead of like St. Kilda, Sydney, Essendon and North were crap, some of the worst 5th-9th teams you'll ever see. West Coast were one of the worst top 4 teams ever that year. We couldn't beat them and then Geelong belted them by 48 points the next week. We didn't get worse in 2012, it wasn't injuries, it's just that a lot of other teams got better. The game has hardly changed, since 2011 and a lot of the little changes such as taller forward lines, heavy midfield/bench rotations, forward rucks, having massive groups of assistant coaches and the modern off field structures are all something Malthouse's Collingwood premiership side inspired.

5 - We're rebuilding so why don't we play the kids!
We are playing the kids... We're just not going to throw them all in at once and watch them probably cop a belting. Smith has played a few games and he clearly wasn't ready. Docherty is a regular. Cripps is playing every game he can. Byrne just debuted. Buckley played a bit last year. Menzel is a regular. Graham played a bit last year. No doubt we'll see another debutant or two this week.

I haven't seen any VFL but the stats aren't overly inspiring. I think Graham and Whiley are generally getting high 20s or 30 odd possessions. To translate that to AFL they should be getting high 20's and goals or high 30's. No one is kicking a heap of goals. Our outside players aren't getting massive possession counts. No one is demanding a game. When we'd drop Mclean and Carrazzo to the VFL they would get 40 odd possessions, this is an example of players screaming out for AFL games at that level. Cripps dominated the VFL last year, that's why he's in the team. I recon a midfielder in the VFL should probably get it 10 more times than they would in the AFL. So perhaps Graham, Whiley may be ready for 18 possession games at AFL level which is ok but still not as good as Carrazzo or Curnow who usually get it 25 times and while tagging.

6 - What happens if we sack the coach.
I'd hate to think of the implications. Firstly it makes us liars and fools and a joke in the eyes of our peers and competitors. We've said we know where we are at, we've said we know we're rebuilding, we've said it's the recruiting that's to blame. So why the hell would we then go out and sack the coach if all this is true! We throw the coach out then our integrity goes with him. This would prove nothing has changed at Carlton and we are still a club stuck in the dark ages where our only solution to a problem is to sack the coach.

What's worse is the message it sends, particularly to the incoming coach. It's going to put too much pressure on the guy to win for a start which IMO is the worst thing to do to a coach in a team rebuilding. That's how you get a list loaded with players who have a little talent but poor attitudes, players with deficiencies of some sort, players who can half play and every other reject no decent club wants that will clog our list but help us win the minimum required games to keep the board happy.

It could derail us completely. The players reportedly have a good relationship with the coach. Watch players walk out with no coach at the club. A club with no coach is a carcass ripe for the picking from what I've seen at AFL clubs. Sacking Mick is a sign of defeat, incompetence and weakness and removes a lot of hope from a players perspective. A new coach coming in will want to see every player play before making a decision on them. Mick didn't get rid of many when he was first appointed, he got a look at them all first before swinging the axe. We get a new coach and it could set us back a whole year in regards to list management and recruiting as players who shouldn't get a second go at it will and this will be costly.

We might get a dud. I have no doubt with good players Malthouse would be very successful, he's proven that and he's overseen a team rebuild from last to a premiership. Not many coaches with that on their resume. He is, on paper, the best possible coach we could have at Carlton. Why take an unnecessary risk. Sure it might work out. Carlton is Malthouse's greatest challenge, he had good recruiters at Collingwood despite their fall to the bottom at the beginning of their rebuild. He hasn't had that at Carlton.

We are Carlton, the only club who could take the best coach going around and make a fool out of him. It would just go to show what a hopeless basket case we really are.

Who would in their right mind want to come and coach Carlton after we have just sacked Malthouse taking all these points I've just made into perspective. You'd have to be mad. Coming to a club that's expecting you to win games that has just proven itself to be run by liars, incompetent fools and deluded morons who still, despite all that has been said overrate their rabble of a list and don't understand modern AFL football. No thanks, you wont get a good coach, not unless you're going to pay him heaps. That's how a replacement coach would see us.

Personally I hope we sign Malthouse up for another 2 or 3 years mid season. Take the pressure off him to win and let him focus on building a list and get the media to f*** off.

New coach is going to get flamed by the media and our supporters when we're losing. They are going to have to be willing and able to handle it. Mick is probably able to handle it, it's going to be a whole new world for any newcomers.

If you swapped Hawthorn's list with ours at the start of summer, you'd find it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Hawthorn would be a bottom side and we'd be a top side because it's all about your players, the coach, if you have the players makes very little difference to the outcome. Clarko would probably lose his shit and want to delist half of them as Mick has done.

7 - Ratten was a better coach, we made a mistake.
No we didn't and no he wasn't. When Ratten and Sticks started going on about being a top 4 side, that was their future signed and sealed, it proved they didn't know what it takes and that they didn't know our list or understood the modern game overly well. I always said Ratten didn't knew what it took to challenge for the flag, he didn't understand the depth of quality and how deep your midfield had to run and that you needed to be taller in defence and up forward. He then got stuck with a style of play that worked a lot of the time but required loads of space in the forward line with a small full forward in Walker and quick small forwards, good teams simply didn't allow us the space and shut us down. He rated some out and out duds like Joseph and started to build a team around these state quality players and a style to suite them rather then getting rid of them and trying again to find talent. He influenced our recruiting in horrendous ways like trading a high pick for Mclean. Allegedly forcing Hughes to select Lucas over Talia. Refusing to trade Thornton to Hawthorn. Malthouse didn't wipe out our list in two seasons and start a rebuild immediately for a reason. We ended up with a list full of list cloggers who couldn't play unless the game style was manipulated to suit their game and a game plan that never did stand up in finals or games against the better sides. Malthouse is making is play a style of footy that exposes the duds and that will stand up in finals and against good sides once we get the players. It takes good players to play our game style well, as it should!!! But once we can do it look out! Ratten had the chance to make Hughes look like a fool and start delisting his selections like Malthouse ultimately has and get him sacked years ago, another thing a good experienced coach may have got on top of. Part of your job as head coach is managing those staff around you and he should have identified Hughes was a dud and got something done about it. I am glad Ratten is at Hawthorn, he will learn a lot, Ratten has what it takes to be an outstanding assistant coach, he has all those skills, it's just making the big calls and understanding the requirements to be the best have let him down. I'd hate to say it but Hughes should have been sacked years before he eventually was, this comes back to Ratten and Kernahan.

8 - Why only rebuild now?
Malthouse took on a Carlton side that did slightly better than it did the previous year, it made finals when it shouldn't have, had a win then got thrashed by Sydney. He then delisted a heap of players and brought in a few from other clubs. Then we did the same the following year. Rebuild is an ugly word in football and is only used by clubs who are down the bottom to satisfy fans. Truth is, and it's fairly obvious, Malthouse started the rebuild immediately. We had a massive gap where no youngsters were coming through which was hurting us already but was going to hit hard when a few old stagers were going to retire so we made efforts to plug this up with a few young players from other clubs. So far I think we have been all about avoiding an oncoming disaster where we were about to enter wooden spoon and uncompetitiveness territory. Waite was leaving/getting old and we had no one coming through so we were basically forced to pick up jones. I'm hoping we are about to enter the part of our rebuild where we start hammering the draft for high end footballers. The ones teams get in the draft ar generally the better players. But you never know what you can get from teams like GWS. It might seem that the club has been giving mixed messages but internally this is not the case, the messages the club give out are for the fans and for the general public and are generally different from what's actually going on. We've got ourselves in a position where it's now appropriate to be honest about where we are at because it's now obvious to the average fan.

9 - Personal opinion.
I know the mess we are in is because of Hughes, Ratten Sticks, that whole era where we managed the list poorly, recruited no one and failed to identify failure within our ranks until it was too late. I'm not an angry fan, you remove all the emoting and review our club, there is no one there at the moment who is responsible for our demise. Mick may have had us playing better and scraping into finals still if he was willing to accept mediocrity and stick with our misfit players who were undisciplined and only turned up once every second week and only beat the mid ranged teams like we did under Ratten, we could have kept doing that, topping up with rejects and kept talking about the top 4 to keep hope with fans. But I am glad we haven't because I don't want that, I want a premiership and it wasn't going to happen. I'm glad we are rebuilding, I'm glad that we have gotten rid of who we have. I strongly believe Malthouse is doing the right thing, I can see how it's working, how it's weeding out those borderline players, how it has our list ticking over with plenty of new hopeful players every year, we're giving ourselves the best opportunity to find players. I can also see that it's heavily reliant on our recruiting and that it requires a steady trickle of talented young players coming through which isn't quite happening as good as it should but at least it is happening.

The old Carlton would have sacked Malthouse and put a new coach in charge and then sacked him as well when he failed. We would have gone in full of bravado told the world that we are Carlton and F*** the rest and done it our way and failed. I want this football club to prove that it understands the modern environment of AFL and that it has seen how all the other successful teams have built their sides and what they have gone through. I want to see that the Carlton board understand what we are going through now is not unusual for sides rebuilding and recognise that Hawthorn, Collingwood and Geelong all had periods like we are having leading up to their success where their coach was heavily questioned and yet they were rewarded for their persistence and faith. Even Sydney with their COLA and academies had some rough times rebuilding to achieve their last two flags. We aren't used to this at Carlton. All I can say is welcome to the modern game and welcome to the true path of success.

I also want to see the club honor it's statements. If the club firmly believes Malthouse is at fault then I think it needs to re-review it's outcome. How can it be that our drafting and list management has been poor, our list is poor and we are in a rebuild yet we expect the coach to be winning? This can not be an outcome of any review. I am hoping that our club is smarter than this, we have seen Malthouse's work and work with clubs in our position and seen that he is a good and proven coach. We can't expect the club to be winning while rebuilding and while the list is poor, this would be a ridiculous and unrealistic expectation. We can't expect improvement while we are replacing senior players like Robinson, Waite, Mclean, Betts, Scotland and Garlett with young and inexperienced players like Whiley, Jones, Smith, Byrne, Boekorst, Graham, Buckley, Docherty, Menzel, Cripps and Dick etc. If we are expecting improvement this year then we need to reassess things because this is unrealistic. Lets get at least 20, preferably 50 games into these players before assessing things.

We gave Ratten 6 years, it took him 5 to peak and we were already partly into a rebuild under Pagan. Lets give Malthouse, who is only in his 3rd year, 5 or 6 years and then see where we are at. I will be very surprised if things aren't looking rosey by then.

I would hope that this club re-signs Malthouse by at least round 15. This club needs strong leadership and direction. It does not need to be influenced by angry fans and the media. It needs to make the correct decisions for the long term future of the club and does not need to take pointless risks. It requires stability, faith and a strong understanding of where the club is at by all at the club and the direction and pathway the club is heading. This club needs to show that is has learnt from other clubs mistakes and our own mistakes as well as having learnt from other clubs success. If it has then it will re-sign Malthouse because all premiership winners of recent times have had to show faith in their coach and their plan at some stage or another at times despite losing and not performing to expectation. This is a test that we simply can not fail.

Mostly I want to see proof that we aren't the Carlton of old, that we have modernised and that we understand what we are going through, that we understand the process and that we have direction and that we have a new way of doing things at Carlton.

I strongly believe that getting rid of Mick is an extremely risky decision and likely the wrong decision, unless we are lucky. Having not signed him, unless he wants to wait, makes me very nervous. I'd prefer that we signed him and got it done. I've liked everything coming from our new board so far except this. I'm just worried we're going to do something "Carlton like".

Until I read this post I was pro getting a new coach.

You sir, have just changed my mind.

Quality post.

 

[Wickzki]

Disgusted with the ineptitude of the club. Absolutely appalling decision.

The second I saw the Cripps interview where he said that he, our young gun and someone we're riding part of our future on, only speaks to Mick Malthouse once a month I knew we were in much more trouble than what they're letting on. If you asked the key young players who he developed for the Pies premiership teams they would tell you - hell it's on public record - that they had indepth discussions with Mick at least once a week. Look at the relationship he has with Daisy. Daisy said that from almost the moment he arrived at the Pies MM became like a second father to him.

To develop a side it takes investment in creating powerful relationships. Any leader would recognize that. It's fundamental to building a great team. When one of your most important young players hasn't been afforded the opportunity to build same quality of relationship with the coach as what you've known he's put the time and effort to build in the past - successfully - it leaves a really bitter taste in my mouth. I'm disgusted.

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

Um what am i missing on Goodes?

I've disliked the guy for over a decade for various reasons. Something he inadvertently did to a mate of mine among them. Respected him as a footballer until the last few years though, now his self serving attitude is there for all to see. And he's a dirty sniper that's been looked after by the AFL. Ordinary bloke.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Delighted to hear that, we have a club president (finally) who doesn't succumb to the media vultures gunning for Mick or the fans who want Mick sacked now.

This club hasn't had a great history of honouring contracts, I am pleased they are giving Mick the courtesy and respect he deserves.

 

[ShanDog]

Disgusted with the ineptitude of the club. Absolutely appalling decision.

The second I saw the Cripps interview where he said that he, our young gun and someone we're riding part of our future on, only speaks to Mick Malthouse once a month I knew we were in much more trouble than what they're letting on. If you asked the key young players who he developed for the Pies premiership teams they would tell you - hell it's on public record - that they had indepth discussions with Mick at least once a week. Look at the relationship he has with Daisy. Daisy said that from almost the moment he arrived at the Pies MM became like a second father to him.

To develop a side it takes investment in creating powerful relationships. Any leader would recognize that. It's fundamental to building a great team. When one of your most important young players hasn't been afforded the opportunity to build same quality of relationship with the coach as what you've known he's put the time and effort to build in the past - successfully - it leaves a really bitter taste in my mouth. I'm disgusted.

I think you are reading into it too much mate. If I had more than one 'performance review' type meeting with my boss each month, I would tell him/her where they can shove their meetings.

Even worse in the case of a footballer!! They only 'perform' once a week!

inb4 sex jokes

 

[Ellas Ellas]

Robinson on SEN was saying today he has no doubt Mick will coach out the season because of the type of character MLG is. He honours contracts.

But in the same sentence says every player is up for trade?

 

[Bluesince62]

My personal choice of next coach is Bassett. However, what are the thoughts about replacing Mick with Woosher ?

CBF looking through 256 pages so apologies if this has already been covered.

 

[Navy Cream]

My personal choice of next coach is Bassett. However, what are the thoughts about replacing Mick with Woosher ?

CBF looking through 256 pages so apologies if this has already been covered.

In a nutshell, that idea was not too popular on here.

 

[Gavstar]

MM's view on kicking.

http://m.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-p...veral-bad-misses/story-e6frf3e3-1227350785580

My question is WTF were we doing for the last two seasons?

Interesting stats re:Casboult and yes Jones is the worst set shot in the AFL. So why given MM view on kicking is he being selected.

"Rankings for top-35 players total set shots

Player (Shots at goal - Expected accuracy - Actual accuracy - Rank

Levi Casboult (11, 48.7%, 54.5%, + 5.9%, 11th)

Travis Cloke (20, 65.9%, 50%, -15.9%, 33rd)

Liam Jones (15, 55.2%, 33.3%, -21.9%, 35th)"

 

[GoBlues!]

Imagine what's going to happen when we actually play a good team.

It will be armageddon time. Arma geddon outta here.

 

[LordLucifer]

It will be armageddon time. Arma geddon outta here.

I was going to put a link to a news broadcast that featured the word "Armageddon" but some people may find it a little rude.

 

[DaVillaBlues]

I still faith in the players and coach, we're getting some quality players back in the next few weeks

I can't see any realistic reason why we can't beat the Giants, Cats, Crows in the next month.

We are better than our current ladder position suggests, no world beaters, but think we will finish around 12th/13th at seasons end ..

We will win this week, absolutely no doubt in my mind. Giants will have somewhat big heads after beating Hawthorn, and i think we get the chocolates in a players sign of solidarity for Mick, its our line in the sand game .. Hope everyone rocks up to Etihad on Saturday arvo and make some noise .. These are games when the club needs you the most ..

 

[ESKIE]

I still faith in the players and coach, we're getting some quality players back in the next few weeks

I can't see any realistic reason why we can't beat the Giants, Cats, Crows in the next month.

We are better than our current ladder position suggests, no world beaters, but think we will finish around 12th/13th at seasons end ..

We will win this week, absolutely no doubt in my mind. Giants will have somewhat big heads after beating Hawthorn, and i think we get the chocolates in a players sign of solidarity for Mick, its our line in the sand game .. Hope everyone rocks up to Etihad on Saturday arvo and make some noise .. These are games when the club needs you the most ..

I reckon we will as well,