- Banned
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What? So not really a suspension at all then? How ridiculous.
Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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The 1909 Rd. 18 draw between Fitzroy and University was mentioned in another thread, and while I've only had a very brief look at this, there could be a problem with what the official records have after comparing them with the newspaper reports.
Here's what the records have:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1909/061719090904.html
The Age report mentions Fergie for University, whereas they never had a player with that name. Fitzroy did several years later.
The Argus report names Smith for Fitzroy (Smith played that year but isn't named in this team) and also has Briggs with 3 goals (not 2).
The Australasian also names Smith for Fitzroy!
Here's what the records have:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1909/061719090904.html
The Age report mentions Fergie for University, whereas they never had a player with that name. Fitzroy did several years later.
The Argus report names Smith for Fitzroy (Smith played that year but isn't named in this team) and also has Briggs with 3 goals (not 2).
The Australasian also names Smith for Fitzroy!
It's unfortunate there wasn't a game the next week for Fitzroy (or University), it would have made it easier if ins and outs for the next game were mentioned. I've been out for the last couple of hours and haven't got back to digging into this, it wouldn't surprise if the mention of Fergie (University) was just a mistake, as for the two mentions of Smith, what you've suggested could well explain it.
I probably should have noticed this in the first place, but as Naismith is meant to have played for Fitzroy in the 1909 rd. 18 game (and Smith wasn't) it's certainly possible that the reporter got the names wrong. Naismith isn't mentioned in either The Argus or The Australasian match reports (while Smith is), and as RogersResults suggested those reports (and the mistake) could have come from the same person. Naismith is named only in The Age report. As for Fergie (University) being named in The Age, I've no idea. There were two players called Fogerty at the club that season, though neither was supposed to be playing that day perhaps that's where the mistake came from.
I'll keep looking in case something interesting does turn up, but I think it's quite likely there is no real drama here!
I'll keep looking in case something interesting does turn up, but I think it's quite likely there is no real drama here!
- Sep 19, 2006
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Probably irrelevant but in the week preceding the game there is a report about player Martin of University apparently needing a clearance , as apparently he was tied to st Kilda, and that if the clearance didn't arrive, he'd have to play next year.
Now this is interesting because 2 things usually happened in that scenario. The player got cleared in time and played or at the last minute a change was made a player, sometimes unknown came into the game, sometimes a junior or from a school. This would be because the clearance may not have come through
Could Fergie be this latter category?
Nothing from those times would surprise me! The Martin story is a rather interesting one, as he made his debut the week before for University, but he apparently shouldn't have played as he was still tied to St Kilda. I read somewhere that even if University had won the rd. 17 game (against South Melbourne) they may have lost it on appeal due to playing an ineligible player. They lost it anyway. The clearance for Martin apparently came through in time for him to play in rd. 18!
I'm just not sure where the name Fergie came from. The same newspaper (The Age) wrote about Martin's impressive debut the week before, no mention of Martin in the rd. 18 match report in The Age, it's possible the reporter got the name wrong somehow.
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If you trove search the name Fergie and football around that time, you get a number of players from juniors, country leagues who played footy so the name exists.
Alternatively it could be an abbreviation of Ferguson although I give this less weight.
Can you find a reference in the papers to Martin actually having been cleared, ie as a fact, before the game.
Yes, and a Fergie did play for Fitzroy (not University) a fair few years later. Ferguson was playing for Fitzroy in this game, but as it says "Fergie and Kerr then secured the ball, and forwarded to Elliott" it surely must refer to University players. The umpire was Jack Elder, yet he seems to get called Ellis - "who appeared to effect a clean mark, but Ellis bounced the ball"
Perhaps the reporter was having a bad day?! I'll see if I can find a reference to Martin actually getting the clearance.
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A theory and no more.
Martin is named in the pre game team sheets, in anticipation of clearance. Team anticipates clearance and carries a minimum of emergencies if any. Team list is prepared prior to game with the name Martin.
Clearance does not come through. Change made at last minute f.ergie comes in. Some press run with old team sheet some with player Fergie in.
University were on notice about Martin so may not have taken any risks.
Purely a hypothetical.
Could be a very reasonable theory. Martin doesn't get mentioned in any of the (rd. 18) match reports - he's meant to have played according to the records. University had two "public schoolboys" in Larking and O'Brien debut in this game, if Martin really did play it would seem strange that he didn't get some sort of mention, given there must have been a bit of fuss about his having played the week before.
Here's the bit from The Argus on the Friday prior to the game (referred to earlier):- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10730923
South Melbourne had two chances against University last week one of beating the students on the field the other of winning on protest. they scored the greater number of points, and so had no need to claim the game on a technicality. It appears that Martin, the Wesley College captain, who in University colours made such a promising first appearance in league football, was one of those who prior to the beginning of the season signed registration papers for St. Kilda. He did not play with St. Kilda except in practice games, but as soon as his school matches were all over he decided to play with University. When the students put in his registration paper on Monday, they found that Martin was not eligible to play for them until his previous registration had been cancelled. An application has now been made to the St. Kilda Club for a withdrawal of the old registration. If the St. Kilda Club grants it Martin will play tomorrow for the University against Fitzroy. If St. Kilda hold him to his signature he will stand down tomorrow and apply for a permit to the University next season.
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- Sep 19, 2006
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Interesting story about Stan Martin playing in a combined team in December 1916 before he died in 1917:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154553906
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154553906
That is a very good story. I presume the person who wrote it was the Gerald Brosnan who coached University for a few seasons. Martin was obviously a fine footballer, one of an extraordinarily high number from that club who were killed in action.
On another note, do you have any idea who/what is being referred to with this:-
Intense local interest was taken in the match between the University and Fitzroy teams on the latter's ground on Saturday, while followers of the fortunes of the "shop" were also strongly in evidence.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/198470742
I imagine the "shop" refers to University, either way I've not heard this before.
Edit: I see from Wikipedia:- The club was nicknamed The Students, The Professors and The Shop.
I was familiar with the first two nicknames, not the third one!
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Can find no evidence on line of Martin getting a clearance in 1909 or 1910 although there were reports prior to 1910 season that he was new and from the juniors.
The Sun or Herald microfilms may assist.
Incidentally in those combined sides mentioned in the 1916 article posted, at least one other player is known to have died , Jimmy Foy of Perth and I suspect a few others did as well .
The Sun or Herald microfilms may assist.
Incidentally in those combined sides mentioned in the 1916 article posted, at least one other player is known to have died , Jimmy Foy of Perth and I suspect a few others did as well .
The Herald will likely be a big help but The Sun newspaper only started in September 1922, so other alternatives will have to be found.
Not all local suburban papers are on microfilm yet. Might have to search State Lib Vic catalogue for St Kilda or Prahran issues from that 1909/10 period and find out how accessible the original copies are.
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The Herald supports the official historical record:
It is clear about ins and outs for each team - Martin is listed as playing and no mention of Fergie or Smith. None of them are mentioned in detailed match report. Briggs listed as scoring two goals
(..apologies for poor image quality)
It is clear about ins and outs for each team - Martin is listed as playing and no mention of Fergie or Smith. None of them are mentioned in detailed match report. Briggs listed as scoring two goals
(..apologies for poor image quality)
Thanks very much for doing that. I guess I'd already conceded that it was unlikely that anything would come from this, and that the reporters had simply got names wrong. It was well worth looking into nonetheless, presumably Martin did get his clearance in time, but it would be interesting to know what really went on there, as I find it very strange that he wasn't mentioned in any of the match reports I've seen despite there being some controversy about his playing the week before.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-04-...-afl-records-on-service-from-boer-war-ww1-ww2
VFL players:-
From the winning team: Bruce Sloss (South Melb.) and Les Lee (Richmond).
From the beaten team: Jack Cooper (Fitzroy), as well as Stan Martin (Univ.).
Confirmation found today that Frank Davis should be credited with coaching Melbourne on 26 May 1979 and the game should be removed from Carl Ditterich's career tally.
In the days leading up to the match The Sun prints a number of articles indicating that Davis would replace Ditterich for the match. One written by Neil Kearney indicates that Davis and Ditterich would have a phone conversation on the morning of the match about instructions and tactics. Then, on Wednesday 30 May page 1 of The Sun carries a photo of Ditterich taking MFC training on the previous night (Tuesday 29 May) - the accompanying story noting that earlier in the day the VFL had met and voted to lift part of Ditterich's suspension "which had prevented him coaching on Saturday."
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Another Fitzroy error (or so it seems)...
In 1916 there were two Kings that played for Fitzroy - George (#15) and Bob (#16)
The official record has:
George playing in Rds 4,5,6,7,9 & 10
Bob playing in Rds 6,7,11,12,SF,PF,GF
It appears Bob played rather than George in Rds 4 & 5 (and maybe Rds 9&10 but will save for a later post)
Evidence from as many places as I can find:
Round 4
Football Record names “15. KING, G.” in player list but not R. KING (and no player listed as #16)
"King" listed as playing in back pocket in both the Football Record and Herald.
The Argus mentions “in Fitzroy's defence King's marking was noticeable”
The Age mentions: “Norris, following, and King, half back, for Fitzroy were very noticeable, King's marking, in particular, being an attraction” and “Fitzroy's best were Johnson, Shaw, Bamford, Millen, Lennie and King”
The report of this match on p6 of the Round 5 1916 Football Record says “Bob King crowned himself with a good deal of glory for a first appearance with the 'Roy. He played back and did remarkably good work, marking at times so brilliantly that many thought he was Wally Johnson. That of itself was a great compliment to the youngster. His pa was congratulated on the lad's successful debut.”
Round 5
Football Record names “15. KING, G. And 16 KING, R.” in player list
King listed as back pocket in Record and forward pocket in Herald.
No mention of King in The Argus or The Age match reports. No newspaper report lists any ins or outs for Fitzroy team but there were four changes in the official record and The Herald team listing.
The Round 6 Football Record describes team changes “O'Keeffe, of South Melbourne, made his appearance in the Fitzroy uniform against Richmond, and Jenkins and Ballantyne, from Northcote City, were given a trial. Jenkins was the best of the three. Buist had a run and did fairly well, but he was not in anything like the form he used to show.”
Round 6
Football Record and The Herald both list R. King on half back flank and G. King on half forward flank in team line ups.
Football Record states “Fitzroy have five changes in their team for to-day. Holden will play in the centre, and Toohey, O'Dee, G. King, and McDonald will also be playing. Lambert, Parratt, O'Keeffe, Abbott, and Smith are out.”
The Herald states “Parratt, Abbott, Lambert, Smith, Buisst, O’Keefe were out of Fitzroy’s team. The vacancies were filled by Holden, O’Dee, G. King, Purcell, McDonald, Toohey and Burns, who came from the Fitzroy Juniors.”
The Argus mentions both Kings in report “Others who played very well were Lethbridge, Lowrie, Miller, Lenne, the brothers King, and, apart from his goal failures, Freake.”
The Sporting Judge stated “Fitzroy had a King at each end; of the ground last week, and the fact that they were conspicuous in the opening moves led to a wag expressing the opinion that we were being favored with another version of the “Sport of Kings.” Bob (a son of the veteran statistician, and good judge generally) vies with Wal Johnson as a high-marking expert.”
Note: They were not actually brothers
In 1916 there were two Kings that played for Fitzroy - George (#15) and Bob (#16)
The official record has:
George playing in Rds 4,5,6,7,9 & 10
Bob playing in Rds 6,7,11,12,SF,PF,GF
It appears Bob played rather than George in Rds 4 & 5 (and maybe Rds 9&10 but will save for a later post)
Evidence from as many places as I can find:
Round 4
Football Record names “15. KING, G.” in player list but not R. KING (and no player listed as #16)
"King" listed as playing in back pocket in both the Football Record and Herald.
The Argus mentions “in Fitzroy's defence King's marking was noticeable”
The Age mentions: “Norris, following, and King, half back, for Fitzroy were very noticeable, King's marking, in particular, being an attraction” and “Fitzroy's best were Johnson, Shaw, Bamford, Millen, Lennie and King”
The report of this match on p6 of the Round 5 1916 Football Record says “Bob King crowned himself with a good deal of glory for a first appearance with the 'Roy. He played back and did remarkably good work, marking at times so brilliantly that many thought he was Wally Johnson. That of itself was a great compliment to the youngster. His pa was congratulated on the lad's successful debut.”
Round 5
Football Record names “15. KING, G. And 16 KING, R.” in player list
King listed as back pocket in Record and forward pocket in Herald.
No mention of King in The Argus or The Age match reports. No newspaper report lists any ins or outs for Fitzroy team but there were four changes in the official record and The Herald team listing.
The Round 6 Football Record describes team changes “O'Keeffe, of South Melbourne, made his appearance in the Fitzroy uniform against Richmond, and Jenkins and Ballantyne, from Northcote City, were given a trial. Jenkins was the best of the three. Buist had a run and did fairly well, but he was not in anything like the form he used to show.”
Round 6
Football Record and The Herald both list R. King on half back flank and G. King on half forward flank in team line ups.
Football Record states “Fitzroy have five changes in their team for to-day. Holden will play in the centre, and Toohey, O'Dee, G. King, and McDonald will also be playing. Lambert, Parratt, O'Keeffe, Abbott, and Smith are out.”
The Herald states “Parratt, Abbott, Lambert, Smith, Buisst, O’Keefe were out of Fitzroy’s team. The vacancies were filled by Holden, O’Dee, G. King, Purcell, McDonald, Toohey and Burns, who came from the Fitzroy Juniors.”
The Argus mentions both Kings in report “Others who played very well were Lethbridge, Lowrie, Miller, Lenne, the brothers King, and, apart from his goal failures, Freake.”
The Sporting Judge stated “Fitzroy had a King at each end; of the ground last week, and the fact that they were conspicuous in the opening moves led to a wag expressing the opinion that we were being favored with another version of the “Sport of Kings.” Bob (a son of the veteran statistician, and good judge generally) vies with Wal Johnson as a high-marking expert.”
Note: They were not actually brothers
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- Jul 26, 2014
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In Round 9 "King" re-appears in the Fitzroy team. None of the match reports or the Football Record indicate which one, but he was listed as full forward in the Herald. The team shown in the Record does not include King (seems to have been a late replacement for Freake - the normal full forward)
In Round 10, "King" again plays and this time is listed in the back pocket. The Football Record lists
15. KING, G. and 16. MOORE (suggesting it was George rather than Bob, but given Rds 4/5 this is not always a good indicator)
In Round 11 "King" again plays and again is listed in the back pocket. the Football Record lists 15. MOORE and 16. KING, R. None of the match reports mention King as an inclusion or exclusion on the day.
Later Rounds explicitly mention Bob King...
My hypothesis is that actually it was Bob King who played from Rd 9 onwards and the Rd 10 Record has an incorrect player listing. Difficult to be sure but Bob was a high marking backman and George a ruck/fwd.
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'Re the Kings. I looked generally in Trove and saw from memory that Geo King had enlisted in WW1. I think this was in the 1916 AGM.
If so you can easily find when he shipped out but it probably would have been sharpish after his enlistment.
Why is that important?
If Geo King is actually training in the aif he may not be getting games on a regular basis.
I remember looking at this from a position point of view too. Geo King was a backman from memory and Bob a forward and swingmen were not common in those days.
When I first looked at this, and taking account of the aif enlistment of Geo King, I thought provisionally that Bob had played regularly and Geo rarely.
Army records may be the key.
If so you can easily find when he shipped out but it probably would have been sharpish after his enlistment.
Why is that important?
If Geo King is actually training in the aif he may not be getting games on a regular basis.
I remember looking at this from a position point of view too. Geo King was a backman from memory and Bob a forward and swingmen were not common in those days.
When I first looked at this, and taking account of the aif enlistment of Geo King, I thought provisionally that Bob had played regularly and Geo rarely.
Army records may be the key.
Name KING, George LSRN 5930
Occupation Shipwright
Rank Private, 23 Infantry Battalion, later Sapper, 6 Field Engineering Company
Age 25 Height 183 Weight 83
Enlisted 28/06/1915 Embarked 2/10/1916
Next Of Kin Mother, South Melbourne
Military King was unique in the Camp team in that he was the only one that embarked that did not see front-line service. After enlisting, he spent many months with the Melbourne Military Police at Royal Park (enabling him to play a few games with Fitzroy in 1916), and after finally embarking in October, 1916, he spent almost four months in hospital suffering with hemorrhoids (one the less glamorous afflictions of military life). After serving in a number of non-combatant roles in England, he was re-admitted to hospital in November, 1917 with gastritis, an illness from which he never recovered. He was repatriated to Australia in June, 1918, classified as medically unfit for service.
http://www.ozsportshistory.com/melbournerules/1915players.html
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I was kind of correct in my recollection but doesn't necessarily help. The word few though is important( ie usually meant not many).
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1622714
The Argus report on the rd. 9 1916 game mentions "Lowrie and Norris were also prominent" for Fitzroy. This is obviously incorrect as Charlie Norris was suspended for 8 games after the rd. 4 clash with Carlton, and didn't play again until the finals.
The Argus report on the rd. 9 1916 game mentions "Lowrie and Norris were also prominent" for Fitzroy. This is obviously incorrect as Charlie Norris was suspended for 8 games after the rd. 4 clash with Carlton, and didn't play again until the finals.
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Interesting reference to I think George King in the referee of 25 October 1916 where a reference was made to Clifton player Bob King, father of promising Fitzroy back King
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121177337
Also a good background of the creation of Collingwood football club....
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121177337
Also a good background of the creation of Collingwood football club....
