Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

Round 4
Football Record names “15. KING, G.” in player list but not R. KING (and no player listed as #16)
"King" listed as playing in back pocket in both the Football Record and Herald.
The Argus mentions “in Fitzroy's defence King's marking was noticeable”
The Age mentions: “Norris, following, and King, half back, for Fitzroy were very noticeable, King's marking, in particular, being an attraction” and “Fitzroy's best were Johnson, Shaw, Bamford, Millen, Lennie and King”
The report of this match on p6 of the Round 5 1916 Football Record says “Bob King crowned himself with a good deal of glory for a first appearance with the 'Roy. He played back and did remarkably good work, marking at times so brilliantly that many thought he was Wally Johnson. That of itself was a great compliment to the youngster. His pa was congratulated on the lad's successful debut.”

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17853533

The short-lived newspaper The Winner gives outstanding match reports. For rd. 4 it says "of the new men, King (back) ... showed promise." This obviously must refer to Bob King, as George debuted years earlier.

 

[35Daicos]

Interesting reference to I think George King in the referee of 25 October 1916 where a reference was made to Clifton player Bob King, father of promising Fitzroy back King

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121177337

Also a good background of the creation of Collingwood football club....

Robert "Bob" King was the Fitzroy backman, and with that name was more likely to have a father called Bob, I'd say! George King (at least according to Wikipedia) had a father called George!!

Very interesting article, for sure.

 

[royals1922]

Another possible Fitzroy world War 1 casualty

Alexander Salton is listed as having been an umpire who died ins world war 1 and who played for richmond in 1887.

But there is more more to Salton.

He is listed as having been an ex-player for Fitzroy who died in WW1 in their 1917 AGM

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154791121

Sporting Judge 17 March 1917

And cf the Winner of 23 February 1916

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154551497


Indeed a Salton is listed as having played for Fitzroy between 1889 to 1891 in numerous reports and was quite a notable player.

See for example the report of the Argus of 29 September 1890 which refers to Salton

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article8438050

A Salton got a marble clock as an award at the 1891 meeting

cf Fitzroy city Press 10 April 1891

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65654196

Salton is more known as a Richmond player and his wikipedia page does not record his service for fitzroy.

 

[royals1922]

Round 6 v Collingwood

G King is listed as playing by the Prahran Telegraph of 17 June 1916 and scoring 2 goals

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article74834589



Round 4 v Carlton
A player King (no initial) is listed as being in the best in the PT of 3 June 1916

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article74834467

Bob King is not listed as having played.

Round 7 v Carlton

The PT of 1 Jul 1916 lists both R and G King as having been replaced in for the Richmond game ( ie after the round 7 game)

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article74834716

If that helps....

 

[35Daicos]

In Round 9 "King" re-appears in the Fitzroy team. None of the match reports or the Football Record indicate which one, but he was listed as full forward in the Herald. The team shown in the Record does not include King (seems to have been a late replacement for Freake - the normal full forward)

My hypothesis is that actually it was Bob King who played from Rd 9 onwards and the Rd 10 Record has an incorrect player listing. Difficult to be sure but Bob was a high marking backman and George a ruck/fwd.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17853597 (rd. 9)

In addition to Freake, Smith and Reeves were omitted from the Fitzroy team on Saturday, and the three places were filled by the inclusion of Parratt, Bamford and Ballantyne.

No mention of King coming into the side yet both King's were said to have been omitted from the rd. 8 team. In the match report King appears to have cost the team a goal by running too far, it would make sense that it was Bob (the defender), not George who may well have been down the other end.

This paper has Norden umpiring the Fitzroy match, Elder taking the other game of the round. AFL Tables ( *Paul* ) has the reverse of this. The 1916 rd. 9 Football Record matches what the paper has to say.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1916/040619160708.html
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1916/031419160708.html

Incidentally, Fred Moore who came into the Fitzroy side in rd. 8 and ended up a premiership player in that most bizarre season, was the grandfather of future Hawthorn great Kelvin Moore.

 

[the croucher]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17853597 (rd. 9)

In addition to Freake, Smith and Reeves were omitted from the Fitzroy team on Saturday, and the three places were filled by the inclusion of Parratt, Bamford and Ballantyne.

No mention of King coming into the side yet both King's were said to have been omitted from the rd. 8 team. In the match report King appears to have cost the team a goal by running too far, it would make sense that it was Bob (the defender), not George who may well have been down the other end.

This paper has Norden umpiring the Fitzroy match, Elder taking the other game of the round. AFL Tables ( *Paul* ) has the reverse of this. The 1916 rd. 9 Football Record matches what the paper has to say.

The Australasian also has Norden umpiring Fitzroy v C'wood, and Elder umpiring Carlton v Richmond.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/140695080

 

[35Daicos]

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1916/061419160605.html

Vic Thorp is not shown as having played for Richmond in the rd. 5 1916 game as far as the official records are concerned.
The Australasian names him among the best players:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/15082457
The Sporting Judge said "As usual Thorpe starred as goal minder":- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18096440

The rd. 5 Football Record names him in the lineup. The rd. 6 Football Record (referring to the rd. 5 game) says "Thorp's in-kicking was attractive at Richmond on Monday"

There seems to be no doubt that he played in round 5. Given his stature in the game and the fact that he missed very few games over a long career, how did his name come to be omitted from the records for this game?

This was meant to have been the one and only game played by Will Collopy. His name is not mentioned in the rd. 5 or rd. 6 Football Record (he is named in the team for the rd. 8 game, but presumably didn't play).
Rd. 6 Football Record says:- Burke, Cronk and Marsham (of Geelong) will be in Richmond's team to-day. Reeves, Kieran and Shand make way for them.

I've only had a bit of a look for Collopy, but since I haven't seen him mentioned anywhere including in the ins and outs, I think it's very likely he didn't play the round 5 game but Thorp did.

Edit: Just added the link for The Age. It mentions Thorp(e) twice in the match report, including naming him in the best players:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18596761

The Argus and The Winner fail to mention him in the match report.

 

[35Daicos]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/74834716

The Prahran Telegraph names Collopy in the round 8 1916 team for Richmond (as does the Football Record - see post above), and mentions him in the ins and outs, so it's very possible he did play in this game. He's not named in the official records!

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1916/061419160624.html

Edit: The Rd. 9 Football Record says:- Collopy, a new man in Richmond colours, did well for his first match on the wing. (He's also named as one of 3 omissions for the rd. 9 team.)

So it looks like he did play in rd. 8 (and obviously didn't play in rd. 5), but who drops out of the "official" lineup then?! Bill Burns is a likely candidate, he's in the official lineup but not the Football Record or Prahran Telegraph team.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1916/061419160605.html

Vic Thorp is not shown as having played for Richmond in the rd. 5 1916 game as far as the official records are concerned.
The Australasian names him among the best players:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/15082457
The Sporting Judge said "As usual Thorpe starred as goal minder":- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18096440

The rd. 5 Football Record names him in the lineup. The rd. 6 Football Record (referring to the rd. 5 game) says "Thorp's in-kicking was attractive at Richmond on Monday"

There seems to be no doubt that he played in round 5. Given his stature in the game and the fact that he missed very few games over a long career, how did his name come to be omitted from the records for this game?

This was meant to have been the one and only game played by Will Collopy. His name is not mentioned in the rd. 5 or rd. 6 Football Record (he is named in the team for the rd. 8 game, but presumably didn't play).
Rd. 6 Football Record says:- Burke, Cronk and Marsham (of Geelong) will be in Richmond's team to-day. Reeves, Kieran and Shand make way for them.

I've only had a bit of a look for Collopy, but since I haven't seen him mentioned anywhere including in the ins and outs, I think it's very likely he didn't play the round 5 game but Thorp did.

The Herald does not mention Collopy in Round 5 at all. In the team listing Thomas is listed at both full back and centre half back (no Thorpe) but Thorpe is mentioned in match report. Seems certain based on what you've found that the official record is wrong here and Thorpe played rather than Collopy in Rd 5.

The Herald shows Collopy as an inclusion for Round 8 - Bill Burns being the player in the official record who does not appear in the listed team.

 

[35Daicos]

The Herald does not mention Collopy in Round 5 at all. In the team listing Thomas is listed at both full back and centre half back (no Thorpe) but Thorpe is mentioned in match report. Seems certain based on what you've found that the official record is wrong here and Thorpe played rather than Collopy in Rd 5.

The Herald shows Collopy as an inclusion for Round 8 - Bill Burns being the player in the official record who does not appear in the listed team.

Yes, I've just found he was missing and added that to my previous post. It looks like it's not just old Fitzroy teams where there's a few problems!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another likely error - Artie Bettles is listed in Richmond's best players in The Age for Rd 6 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155074597

Official record lists Ray Stewart as playing instead.

Bettles listed in team rather than Stewart in the Round 6 Footy Record http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131793 and mentioned in the Round 7 Record as one of the better players http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131802

The Herald names Bettles in the playing team instead of Stewart as well...

 

[the croucher]

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1916/061419160605.html

Vic Thorp is not shown as having played for Richmond in the rd. 5 1916 game as far as the official records are concerned.
The Australasian names him among the best players:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/15082457
The Sporting Judge said "As usual Thorpe starred as goal minder":- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18096440

The rd. 5 Football Record names him in the lineup. The rd. 6 Football Record (referring to the rd. 5 game) says "Thorp's in-kicking was attractive at Richmond on Monday"

There seems to be no doubt that he played in round 5. Given his stature in the game and the fact that he missed very few games over a long career, how did his name come to be omitted from the records for this game?

<snip>

Just a note of caution with this…

The "100 Years of AFL Players" by Stephen Rodgers published in 1996 shows game and goal tallies year-by-year for each club. The Richmond list for 1916 shows Vic Thorp as playing in 13 games (i.e. all matches for the year). That implies to me that "official records" 20 years ago probably did have Thorp as playing in Round 5. Not sure what has happened to the listing since then.

 

[35Daicos]

Just a note of caution with this…

The "100 Years of AFL Players" by Stephen Rodgers published in 1996 shows game and goal tallies year-by-year for each club. The Richmond list for 1916 shows Vic Thorp as playing in 13 games (i.e. all matches for the year). That implies to me that "official records" 20 years ago probably did have Thorp as playing in Round 5. Not sure what has happened to the listing since then.

Thanks for bringing that up. It's a bit of a mystery as to what must have gone on, of course all of these recent revelations will have to be pointed out to the AFL Stats people, and Stephen may well end up the one sorting it out!

The records obviously now have Thorp on 262 games, with him missing the rd. 5 1916 match. As for what went on with the amendment/s a few years ago?! 1993 Media Guide (official AFL publication) has 261 games. Looking at the AFL season guides, AFL '96 and any others I've checked up to the 2006 book have 263. The 2007 book was the first time it was shown as 262 games, any I've looked at between then and now show that figure.

The latest edition (2014) of The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has him on 263 games, the 1992 book has him on 261. Any other editions I have say 263.

"The Encyclopedia" has (one-gamer) Collopy in all editions of the book I have (1992-2014), the AFL records look to have been amended to have him playing (in Thorp's place) in rd. 5, but his only game was (seemingly) in rd. 8. So why was this shuffled around, (even though it would have been incorrect) why wasn't Collopy changed to 2 games (rd. 5 & 8) when the change with Thorp was made?! Burns then must have been given Collopy's spot in the rd. 8 team, which shouldn't have happened either.

I'm rather relieved to see this (apparent) error with Thorp hasn't existed all the way through since 1916, but the official records were changed a few years back and it seems they shouldn't have been.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

One more from 1916 - the last one from me!

Carlton had two Whites playing in 1916 (this is a bit like the Kings from Fitzroy) - both were wing players.

George White is listed as playing in Rounds 1-5
Robert White is listed as playing in Round 8.

In early rounds I have found no match reports with initials but only G. White is listed in the Football Record official player numbers.

Round 5 (Carlton played Collingwood)
The Sporting Judge reported "The loss of one White (T. of that ???) gave another Carltonian of the name a chance to shine. R. White is also a winger and that he knows the business was plain"
Winner reported "R. White (a new man) made a most promising start"
The Football Record reported "Two recruits in Drummond (Collingwood) and G. White (Carlton) created a favourable impression for a first appearance."
The Herald in its Round 5 match report stated "T. White and Dunn were out of Carlton's team and Lang and G. White were played"
In Round 6, The Age reports "R. White gave place to O'Brien in Carlton's team" and The Herald reported "Carlton gave O'Brien a game in place of R. White"

Despite the confusion in initials, it seems there was a change in Round 5 and that R. White replaced G. White

Round 8 (Carlton again played Collingwood)
For Round 8 the Football Record reported "A severe illness prevented Andy McDonald from playing for Carlton in the Collingwood match. Brown and Canet were also absentees. Thus the opportunity was afforded to play Mick Carter, the swallow-footed sprinter, Greaves, and George White."
The Prahran Telegraph reported " Carlton's changes were:-Brown, McDonald and Canet being replaced by Carter, Greaves and G. White."
The Herald reported "places being filled by Carter, Greaves and G. White"

Seems like G. White played in Round 8.

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks for bringing that up. It's a bit of a mystery as to what must have gone on, of course all of these recent revelations will have to be pointed out to the AFL Stats people, and Stephen may well end up the one sorting it out!

Not sure if this helps of hinders, but Richmond initially played Bill Burns in 1916 without a permit against Fitzroy in Round 2.
It wasn't until Wednesday June 21 that he was given a permit

 

[rbartlett]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/74834716

The Prahran Telegraph names Collopy in the round 8 1916 team for Richmond (as does the Football Record - see post above), and mentions him in the ins and outs, so it's very possible he did play in this game. He's not named in the official records!

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1916/061419160624.html

Edit: The Rd. 9 Football Record says:- Collopy, a new man in Richmond colours, did well for his first match on the wing. (He's also named as one of 3 omissions for the rd. 9 team.)

So it looks like he did play in rd. 8 (and obviously didn't play in rd. 5), but who drops out of the "official" lineup then?! Bill Burns is a likely candidate, he's in the official lineup but not the Football Record or Prahran Telegraph team.

The Richmond Australian lists Collopy in the team that plays Round 8, and as one of the best players.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article119690557
"Collopy, the youngest recruit in the team played splendidly..."

It also says there were "only two changes in the team from the previous match: (Rd 7).
Hede replaced Son Thomas, and Collopy substituted for Briscoe (as in , took Briscoe's place)
Burns is not listed as one of the changes (as he didn't play in Rd 7), therefore he shouldn't be credited for the Rd 8 game.

 

[rbartlett]

Another likely error - Artie Bettles is listed in Richmond's best players in The Age for Rd 6 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155074597

Official record lists Ray Stewart as playing instead.

Bettles listed in team rather than Stewart in the Round 6 Footy Record http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131793 and mentioned in the Round 7 Record as one of the better players http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131802

The Herald names Bettles in the playing team instead of Stewart as well...

In The Richmond Guardian for the Rd 6 match, Bettles is clearly listed in the side, next to Thorpe. Beetles is also listed as one of the best players of the game.
There is no record of Stewart playing that game.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article119690438

I'm guessing someone will need to advise Col H of the changes for these two Richmond games.
What's the Big Footy process for this? Just a direct email to him ? Did you need me to contact him?

 

[35Daicos]

I'm guessing someone will need to advise Col H of the changes for these two Richmond games.
What's the Big Footy process for this? Just a direct email to him ? Did you need me to contact him?

Thanks for that Rhett. I sent an email last night to both Col and Steve Rodgers alerting them to the fact that a few more likely errors had been found in official team lineups from the league's early days. I provided a link to the initial post (on 1916 issues) in this thread from WhiteHartLane23 (#144) and suggested they read from there onwards. As I've done in the past I will post the AFL's findings here, let people know on the Football Statistics board, and forward any relevant email(s) to "interested parties" such as AFL Tables and Footy Works.

WhiteHartLane23 I hope this is okay with you. As happened the last time I pointed out that you were the one responsible for the "initial discoveries" and that I (and others) had merely jumped in and provided some assistance.

I look forward to hearing from the AFL, those who keep databases are likely to have a few changes to make!

 

[royals1922]

No doubt in my mind that Collopy played in the June game.

This is from the Winner of


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154551910


A search of Collopy in 1916 on Trove shows him only for that game from numerous sources.

He was better known as cricketer and played for University for 3 years.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Thanks for that Rhett. I sent an email last night to both Col and Steve Rodgers alerting them to the fact that a few more likely errors had been found in official team lineups from the league's early days. I provided a link to the initial post (on 1916 issues) in this thread from WhiteHartLane23 (#144) and suggested they read from there onwards. As I've done in the past I will post the AFL's findings here, let people know on the Football Statistics board, and forward any relevant email(s) to "interested parties" such as AFL Tables and Footy Works.

WhiteHartLane23 I hope this is okay with you. As happened the last time I pointed out that you were the one responsible for the "initial discoveries" and that I (and others) had merely jumped in and provided some assistance.

I look forward to hearing from the AFL, those who keep databases are likely to have a few changes to make!

35Daicos - thanks for contacting Col & Steve - very happy for you to do that.

To give some context to these discoveries, I'm attaching a doc with 1916 match reports I have compiled that triggered many of these discoveries. For those interested in footy history I think its an interesting read (and it also contains links to all the match photos I could find, Footy Records, tribunal outcomes etc so is also a useful resource)

Based off this there are a couple of extra tribunal records (George Anderson (Coll) in Rd 11 and Vin Gardiner (Carl) in the GF) that don't appear in offical records.

 

[35Daicos]

No doubt in my mind that Collopy played in the June game.

This is from the Winner of

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154551910

A search of Collopy in 1916 on Trove shows him only for that game from numerous sources.

He was better known as cricketer and played for University for 3 years.

Yes, it looks certain that the rd. 8 game was his first (and last). Perhaps he then headed off to war, otherwise it's hard to see why he wasn't picked again, considering he "proved a decided success".

It also has G. White as a rd. 8 inclusion for Carlton, R. White is in the official lineup.

It's a pity that paper only lasted a few years, the match reports are excellent and the "snippets/sidelights" are something you don't see much of elsewhere.

 

[royals1922]

Yes, it looks certain that the rd. 8 game was his first (and last). Perhaps he then headed off to war, otherwise it's hard to see why he wasn't picked again, considering he "proved a decided success".

It also has G. White as a rd. 8 inclusion for Carlton, R. White is in the official lineup.

It's a pity that paper only lasted a few years, the match reports are excellent and the "snippets/sidelights" are something you don't see much of elsewhere.

He played cricket later that year for university. My guess is he was a fill in player and went back to school footy.

 

[royals1922]

Yes, it looks certain that the rd. 8 game was his first (and last). Perhaps he then headed off to war, otherwise it's hard to see why he wasn't picked again, considering he "proved a decided success".

It also has G. White as a rd. 8 inclusion for Carlton, R. White is in the official lineup.

It's a pity that paper only lasted a few years, the match reports are excellent and the "snippets/sidelights" are something you don't see much of elsewhere.

Are you sure of the first names of G and R White.

 

[35Daicos]

Are you sure of the first names of G and R White.

Looks quite certain that they are George and Robert. The aforementioned "Encyclopedia" has them as that. I only added that bit as "backup" for what
WhiteHartLane23 had posted about the White's a few posts up the page.

 

[35Daicos]

35Daicos - thanks for contacting Col & Steve - very happy for you to do that.

To give some context to these discoveries, I'm attaching a doc with 1916 match reports I have compiled that triggered many of these discoveries. For those interested in footy history I think its an interesting read (and it also contains links to all the match photos I could find, Footy Records, tribunal outcomes etc so is also a useful resource)

Based off this there are a couple of extra tribunal records (George Anderson (Coll) in Rd 11 and Vin Gardiner (Carl) in the GF) that don't appear in offical records.

That's an outstanding bit of work!

I'm pretty sure I had read somewhere a few days ago that only one player was suspended in 1916 (Norris of Fitzroy), and when going through match reports had been surprised to read of the Anderson suspension. The AFL Historical Statistics site only has/had Norris suspended and Leehane (Carlton) not guilty, I presume this is what you've compared it with.