Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/1988.html
From 1988, Baxter and Hannebery are meant to have worn 26 for Footscray that year, Eustice and Palm no. 6 for Richmond.

According to the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers, Muller is said to have worn 25 for St Kilda, Taylor 26. The AFL Historical Statistics site club player lists page had both in 26 for 1988.

I've only had a brief look but Eustice and Palm (both in 6) played the rd. 3 game:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1988/041419880416.html

Eustice and Palm (both meant to be in 6) played the rd. 4 1988 game together (and probably quite a few others as well). You can see Eustice in 4 and Palm in 6 in this video:-
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1988/091419880425.html

The 'Encyclopedia' has their numbers correct. The rd. 19 1988 Football Record has Hannebery 36 for Footscray and Peter Baxter 26 (in the reserves). For the Saints (also in the reserves) Muller is 25 and Taylor 26. The AFL stats site shows Hannebery in no. 36 in 1986, from 1987-1990 he's in 26. AFL Tables copies this:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Matt_Hannebery.html

Looking at a few copies of the Football Record it seems he should have been in #36 all along.

 

[the croucher]

Cannot see any earlier ref to player list change probably needed for Geelong v Carlton 18 Aug 1917,
so here are details found so far:

Johns didn't play, Hansen did.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1917/030919170818.html

Geelong Advertiser gives team list at start of match report
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119724366

Not sure yet who Hansen is.

 

[35Daicos]

Cannot see any earlier ref to player list change probably needed for Geelong v Carlton 18 Aug 1917,
so here are details found so far:

Johns didn't play, Hansen did.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1917/030919170818.html

Geelong Advertiser gives team list at start of match report
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119724366

Not sure yet who Hansen is.

The Winner names Johns among the best players, which throws the proverbial Cat among the pigeons!:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154546486/17853104

Hansen wasn't named in the squad of 23 in the Friday Geelong Advertiser:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119723995/13464578

 

[35Daicos]

With players wearing the same number in the same season, wouldn't it be because some players switched clubs mid-season?

Yes, true in some cases perhaps, although I haven't actually looked for an example of that.

Many cases though, there are errors in the records.
Take Graeme Cook (Footscray) for example.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/G/Graeme_Cook1.html

In 1970 he played seven games and is supposed to have worn #10.
In six of those games, Gordon Casey also plays - and he is also listed as wearing #10.

Mark Eustice played for both Richmond and Sydney in 1988. The AFL Historical Statistics site had him as no. 6 at both clubs, yet he wore 4 at Richmond and 6 at Sydney. It had him wearing 4 in 1987 (at Richmond), so the mid-year change of clubs has seemingly contributed to the error.

I just assume that AFL Tables copied what was on the AFL site, hence the error there:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Mark_Eustice.html
Incidentally, I do realise that it's possible that AFL Tables may not be able to show two different guernsey numbers for a player in the one season.

Of other players discussed in recent posts, Des Martin played for South Melbourne then Richmond in 1942:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/D/Des_Martin.html

There's still a lot of errors to be found with this that are not related to players playing for two clubs in one season. I'm seeing so many examples of this that it would be a fair task to get it all sorted out! e.g. in 1917 there's Collingwood's Harry Saunders and Maurie Sheehy in 23 in the same game(s) and South Melbourne's Vic Belcher and Jim Caldwell wearing 2.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/1917.html#16

 

[the croucher]

<snip>

There's still a lot of errors to be found with this that are not related to players playing for two clubs in one season. I'm seeing so many examples of this that it would be a fair task to get it all sorted out! e.g. in 1917 there's Collingwood's Harry Saunders and Maurie Sheehy in 23 in the same game(s) and South Melbourne's Vic Belcher and Jim Caldwell wearing 2.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/1917.html#16

Yes, quite a lot of errors becoming apparent.

1912 is first full season where numbers for each player listed match by match.
In round 1 that year Collingwood's team includes Len Gibb and Percy Gibb, both shown as wearing #5 !!
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/041119120427.html

I guess some things stare you in the face so obviously that you look right past them. Have just checked the Collingwood Forever website and that too looks to have simply copied everything off the AFL stats pages without noticing the two Gibb's in the same number.

 

[35Daicos]

Yes, quite a lot of errors becoming apparent.

1912 is first full season where numbers for each player listed match by match.
In round 1 that year Collingwood's team includes Len Gibb and Percy Gibb, both shown as wearing #5 !!
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/041119120427.html

I guess some things stare you in the face so obviously that you look right past them. Have just checked the Collingwood Forever website and that too looks to have simply copied everything off the AFL stats pages without noticing the two Gibb's in the same number.

The AFL site had Len Gibb, Percy Gibb and Lance Mounsey all wearing #5 in 1912. According to the Football Record, P Gibb wore 2, L Gibb 5, but Mounsey also wore 5 (when L Gibb wasn't playing - Mounsey and L Gibb did not play in the same team). So here was an example of 2 players "sharing" a number during a season. It would be interesting to see how often this did happen.

The AFL pages had Percy and Reg Gibb both wearing #10 in 1913. The Football Record had Percy in 6 (19 in rd. 3 when the numbers apparently had to be changed), Reg in 10. In 1914 the AFL site had P Gibb in 5 and R Gibb in 7, which appears to be correct!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Yes, quite a lot of errors becoming apparent.

The number issues are caused by the original system for storing records only allowing a single number per player per year. The AFL historical stats site had this constraint, as did AFL Tables. I know Paul at AFL tables has now changed this (March 2015 according to his Change Log) to allow variation by game and is updating records as corrections are identified.

Would be good to systematically go back and update records based off Footy Record and other primary sources but it is time consuming. I've "done" 1914 and most of 1915 and came up with about 20 changes in each year. (Its also a good way to verify/correct playing record). Can post spreadsheets if anyone is interested

 

[35Daicos]

Would be good to systematically go back and update records based off Footy Record and other primary sources but it is time consuming. I've "done" 1914 and most of 1915 and came up with about 20 changes in each year. (Its also a good way to verify/correct playing record). Can post spreadsheets if anyone is interested

Yes, please do.

 

[the croucher]

mmmm, thought one of us would come across such an example soon enough…
a beauty from 1935 VFL season…three players listed as wearing #15 for Collingwood in Rnd 6 match v Footscray,
Pannam, Knight & Gibson
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1935/040719350601.html

will try other resources too, but I notice that in a match programme during the finals later in the year,
Gibson is listed as #15, Knight #20 and Pannam #21.

 

[rbartlett]

Some changes I've found as I'm working through Richmond guernsey history

Rd 15 1913
Les Oliver 27 to 12
Percy Martyn No 12 to 29
Fred Morgan No 16 to No 17
Arthur Danks No 25 to 24


Rd 2 1912
Bowden from 23 to 10
Wells from 21 to 13
Les Oliver rom 27 to 12

(It looks like Les Oliver wore No. 12 for all of 1912 and 1913).
(He definately wore No. 27 for his handful of games in 1915)

Semi Final Richmond vs Coll 1929
Harry Weidner from No. 7 to No. 29
Ralph Empey from No. 33 to No. 26


Rd 2 1942
Guernsey number for Dan Guinane from 22, to 21.

Rd 7 1942
Guernsey number for Dan Guinane from 22, to 21.
Guernsey number for Max Oppy from 33 to 30

Rd 9 1942
Guernsey number for Pat Davey from 3 to 5
Guernsey number for Dan Guinane from 22, to 21.
Guernsey number for Max Oppy from 33 to 30

Rd 16 1942
Guernsey number for Dan Guinane from 22, to 21.

1943 SF - Gordon Styles from 32 to 33

1944 Grand Final vs Fitzroy
Bill Morris from No. 5 to No. 34
Fred Cook from No. 7 to No. 33
George Smeaton No. 24 to No. 21

Richmond- 1957 -Rd 2 - guernsey number is 1, not 19

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Yes, please do.

1914 file: Corrections tab lists variations from "official record" with sources
One tab per team after that with colors
Green - verified from Footy Record
Yellow - where I have identified change from official record
Red - player was suspended

I sent this to Col Hutchison at AFL, Paul at AFL tables and Adam at australianfootball.com at the time.
- Col acknowledged receipt but I have had no confirmation if records have been updated
- Paul made changes where possible (could only accommodate one number per year at that time so should re-check this)
- australianfootball.com have corrected playing record but not incorrect jumper numbers

 

[the croucher]

Not sure if this is the right thread for my question and am happy to have this post moved but does anyone have the full results of the 1977, '78, '79, 1983, '84, '85 and '86 pre-season games as well as 1981?

I don't have an immediate answer, but just checking -

Presume you mean the pre-season competition matches, such as Escort Cup,
rather than practice matches.

A search of the Canberra Times gives some final scores, but not much other detail:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/r...estHandler&dateFrom&dateTo&sortby&l-state=ACT

 

[Daniel Flynn]

Hey guys I'm not quite sure because I was playing an AFL trivia game and it said that the winner of the 1914 Grand Final winners were South Melbourne but I'm sure its Carlton

What is it?

 

[the croucher]

Hey guys I'm not quite sure because I was playing an AFL trivia game and it said that the winner of the 1914 Grand Final winners were South Melbourne but I'm sure its Carlton

What is it?

Yes, Carlton won 1914 GF, see here:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1914/031619140926.html
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10808579

 

[Daniel Flynn]

Yes, Carlton won 1914 GF, see here:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1914/031619140926.html
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10808579

Thanks mate

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Yes, please do.

Finished 1915.

Changes to numbers are:
1 Alf Baud (Carlton) should be #18 not #25
2 Gus Dobrigh (Collingwood) should be #4 not #3
3 Charles Comber (Ess) is #28 not #15
4 Bert Day (Ess) is #27 not 21
5 Bobby Donald (Ess) is #20,?,#21 (played 3 games) not #24
6 Percy Martyn is #7 (Ess) & #12 (Rich) not #29
7 Ned Richardson wore #12 for Essendon (not #20)
8 Clive Fergie #24 not #3 (Fitzroy)
9 Hugh Purse unlikely to be #26 for Melb - Claude Bryan was #26 in 1915 and played that day
10 Harry Alessio (Rich) was #27 not #24
11 Billy Briscoe (Rich) was #12 not #13
12 Fred Morgan (Rich) was #17 not #16
13 Vic Belcher (SM) #1 not #2
14 Dick Mullaly (SM) #17 not #14
15 Les Rusich (SM) #18 not #23
16 Harry Saltau (SM) #22 not #24
17 Robert Bowden (St K) likely #20 not #17 except for Rd 4

edit: Have sent to Paul at AFL Tables so change should appear there soon

 

[rbartlett]

Finished 1915.

Changes to numbers are:

Nice work WhiteHartLane.
Did you do the 1912-1913 season as well with attachments ?, or did I miss that.
I've done 1912,1913 guernsey history for Richmond , but alas there wasn't many Richmond matches covered by online records

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Nice work WhiteHartLane.
Did you do the 1912-1913 season as well with attachments ?, or did I miss that.
I've done 1912,1913 guernsey history for Richmond , but alas there wasn't many Richmond matches covered by online records

Sorry but no - I started looking at 1914 in 2014 and moved forward from there... some day when time permits I will go back to 1912-13.

 

[australianfootball]

[QUOTE="
- australianfootball.com have corrected playing record but not incorrect jumper numbers[/QUOTE]


An oversight on our part. We're now inputting the correct jumper numbers. Much appreciated WhiteHeartLane23.

 

[Oliver G]

Jumper numbers for 1914-1915 have now been updated on AustralianFootball.

 

[the croucher]

That's a bit stupid having players with the same number in the same game.

Someone needs to nut that out and rectify it.

Have been looking at how many seasons might need checking for this,
and am a bit surprised it stretches so far across the history of the VFL/AFL competition.

In every season from 1912 to 1993 inclusive, there is at least one match per year
where two players are listed as wearing the same number in that match.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Have been looking at how many seasons might need checking for this,
and am a bit surprised it stretches so far across the history of the VFL/AFL competition.

In every season from 1912 to 1993 inclusive, there is at least one match per year
where two players are listed as wearing the same number in that match.

I wish I was surprised... (but we don't even have who played in which match accurate yet)

Two players being listed as wearing the same number in that match is really just a symptom of poor quality jumper number records overall.
As an example, from the 1915 spreadsheet above, for Essendon only, there was one example of duplicate numbers in a match but 35 cases of incorrect numbers (assuming the Football Record is accurate!)

If anyone is keen to systematically work through records for a year pls let me know - I'm happy to share the process/tools I have used for 1914 & 1915.
(Takes me approx. 6hrs to work through a year...)

 

[rbartlett]

Folks, I'd like to put forward an idea, that is still in its infancy.
In 1910, Richmond had a Bobby Scott who played Rd 1, 3-9, 11 and 18.
In the same year, a Bill Scott played for Richmond Rd 17 only.
My theory is this. Is Bill Scott, actually Bobby Scott?
Because at the start of the season in 1910 The Argus 25 April when talking about who is training with Richmond it says 'Scott (a centre man from North Melbourne Juniors)

and again on 29 April 1910 The Age 'Scott (North Melbourne Juniors)' ,

and May 2 1910 The Age review of Rd 1 match: ' New men.... Scott (North Melbourne Juniors),

May 20 1910 The Argus 'Scott and Lacey, two prominent big juniors, who have been standing down owing to injuries'.

In preparation for Rd 12 match it says 'Richmond had a heavy loss in the absence of Heaney from illness, Scott being out for the same reason'

So the night before the Rd 17 match we have this entry in Aug 26 1910 The Argus: 'Richmond will have Bourke in the team tomorrow and probably Scott, the North Melbourne junior , who has been ill'. That would explain why Bobby Scott hadn't played since the Rd 11 match, and it correlates to the previous mentions of Scott as a North Melbourne junior, who we know to be Bobby Scott.

Thoughts?
Rhett

 

[35Daicos]

Folks, I'd like to put forward an idea, that is still in its infancy.
In 1910, Richmond had a Bobby Scott who played Rd 1, 3-9, 11 and 18.
In the same year, a Bill Scott played for Richmond Rd 17 only.
My theory is this. Is Bill Scott, actually Bobby Scott?
Because at the start of the season in 1910 The Argus 25 April when talking about who is training with Richmond it says 'Scott (a centre man from North Melbourne Juniors)

and again on 29 April 1910 The Age 'Scott (North Melbourne Juniors)' ,

and May 2 1910 The Age review of Rd 1 match: ' New men.... Scott (North Melbourne Juniors),

May 20 1910 The Argus 'Scott and Lacey, two prominent big juniors, who have been standing down owing to injuries'.

In preparation for Rd 12 match it says 'Richmond had a heavy loss in the absence of Heaney from illness, Scott being out for the same reason'

So the night before the Rd 17 match we have this entry in Aug 26 1910 The Argus: 'Richmond will have Bourke in the team tomorrow and probably Scott, the North Melbourne junior , who has been ill'. That would explain why Bobby Scott hadn't played since the Rd 11 match, and it correlates to the previous mentions of Scott as a North Melbourne junior, who we know to be Bobby Scott.

Thoughts?
Rhett

In the same article (Aug 26) in The Argus it says (of Richmond) "They are also expecting a big follower from Euroa". Bill Scott was from Euroa, and 182cm according to the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10455583

The Age Aug 29 1910 says "and Scott, from Euroa, replaced McGuire and Woolhead."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/18560934

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

In Round 10 of 1898, Fitzroy v. St. Kilda, match reports (The Age, The Argus, The Australasian) state that St. Kilda played with only 18 players against the 20 of Fitzroy due to selected players failing to appear, however 20 players are credited with playing.

The 9 mentioned in match reports are:
Aylwin, Harry
Blake, Mick
Blake, Tom
Dando, Johnny
Hall, Ted
Jones, Ernie
Matthews, Bill
Smith, Howard
Stewart, Andy

The 11 credited as playing but not mentioned are:
Fogarty, Tom
Gibson, Dave
Hogan, Joe
McNamara, Tom
Morehouse, Joe
Phillips, Syd
Stewart, George
Stewart, Walter
Warne, Jim
Whitelaw, Fred
Woodhouse, Bill

Presumably two of this list did not actually play - but clues as to the non-attendees are scant. (I've also looked at Leader, Herald, Fitzroy City Press, Table Talk) As A. Stewart is mentioned with an initial this suggests there were likely to be multiple Stewarts on the field. Neither Fogarty or Gibson played the next week but this may be purely coincidental.