The relevance of the 35 in this context is your suggestion that balancing the numbers somehow equals some sort of generous benefit.
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Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?
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The relevance of the 35 in this context is your suggestion that balancing the numbers somehow equals some sort of generous benefit.
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My suggestion? "The concessions they were given when they entered the league" meant everything they received for their first six seasons in the league. Having exclusive access to the best West Australian in 1991 when they had just made the Grand Final was ridiculous. They also made a prelim in 1990 but were still granted exclusive access to the two best West Aussies at the time (Jakovich & White) I stand by my statement.
- Maurice Rioli - joined Richmond in 1982. Retired in 1987.
- Gary Buckenara - joined Hawthorn in 1982. Retired in 1990. West Coast attempted to break the rules and sign the contracted Buckenara. They were taken to the Victorian Supreme Court who upheld his contract with Hawthorn. Retired in 1990.
- Mark Bairstow - joined Geelong in 1987. One of the very few notable players West Coast had a legitimate claim to and missed out on. Retired in 1994.
- Nicky Winmar - joined St Kilda in 1987. There is a rumour that states West Coast overlooked him at the time but the reality of the situation is unclear. Retired in 1999.
- Ken Hunter - joined Carlton in 1981. Retired in 1989.
- Alan Johnston - joined Melbourne in 1982. Retired in 1990.
- Leon Baker - joined Essendon in 1984. Retired in 1988.
- Jim Krakouer - joined North in 1982. Retired in 1991.
- Phil Krakouer - joined North in 1982. Retired in 1991.
- Brad Hardie - joined Footscray in 1985. Retired in 1992.
- Earl Spalding - joined Melbourne in 1987. Not too sure of his situation but I assume he may have been snatched up before West Coast had a chance to get him. Retired in 1997.
- Billy Duckworth - joined Essendon in 1982. Retired in 1990.
- Simon Beasley - joined Footscray in 1982. Retired in 1989.
- Richard Dennis - joined Carlton in 1987. Not too sure of his situation but I assume he may have been snatched up before West Coast had a chance to get him. Retired in 1992.
- Ken Judge - joined Hawthorn in 1983. Retired in 1988.
- Michael Richardson - joined Collingwood in 1983. Retired in 1990.
- Michael Mitchell - joined Richmond in 1987. Not too sure of his situation but I assume he may have been snatched up before West Coast had a chance to get him. Retired in 1991.
- Warren Dean - joined Melbourne in 1987. Ended up at West Coast in 1990 and never played a game for the Eagles. Retired in 1990.
- Murray Rance - joined Footscray in 1986. Joined West Coast when his contract ended in 1988. Retired in 1990.
- Jon Dorotich - joined Carlton in 1986. Retired in 1993.
- Rod Lester-Smith - joined Hawthorn in 1984. Retired in 1991.
- Michael Christian - joined Collingwood in 1987. Not too sure of his situation but I assume he may have been snatched up before West Coast had a chance to get him. Retired in 1995.
- Peter Sartori - joined Carlton in 1987. Not too sure of his situation but I assume he may have been snatched up before West Coast had a chance to get him. Retired in 1994.
- Darren Bewick - joined Essendon in 1986. Retired in 2000.
- Phil Egan - joined Richmond in 1982. Retired in 1991.
- Craig Holden - joined North in 1982. Retired in 1988.
- John Ironmonger - joined Sydney in 1985. Retired in 1991.
- Paul Harding - joined Hawthorn in 1986. West Coast attempted to break the rules and sign the contracted Harding. They were taken to the Victorian Supreme Court who upheld his contract with Hawthorn. Ended up joining West Coast in 1992 anyway. Retired in 1994.
As you can clearly see, majority of the guys you listed had already been playing in Victoria for multiple years and were starting to wind down by the time West Coast came along. Don't forget, most of these guys probably had existing contracts in 1986 and it would have been against the rules for West Coast to attempt to sign them (West Coast tried to break the rules anyway by attempting to sign Buckenara and Harding). The way you have presented the information is very misleading but I've come to expect that from West Coast supporters in this thread.
Note that in the West Coast formation foxtel documentary i remember it stating the the VFL clubs signed up a lot of players knowing that There was going to be another club joining from wa. On the list above there are 12 from 86 87. That's a fair bit of talent considering its weakened state compared to the late 70s
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I'm not denying the concessions but I do object to the generousity you claim.
Access to Teal Cup winning side was a big plus, just as limiting the Eagles to 35 proved to be a problem for the rest of the comp when the day came to address it, and addressing it had to come - what did you want them to have access after ALL other teams had their selections.
The inaugural Eagles squad was not an Origin list but the early 90s squad evolved into it, and started the death rattle for Origin footy in Aussie Rules.
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You call them West Coast dills but for some that may have not been around back then, looking back they want to understand what was going on before, during and after West Coast started, to get a fuller picture.
A little bit of research even if person not around then would find any drafting back then was totally in it's infancy. Recruiting players was not based on a drafting system back then. It was recruit players from your own zones, recruit from other VFL clubs with trades or simple monetary clearance fees or look interstate and pick a ready made senior player from interstate clubs. West Coast were coming in when the system was in transition to a more open market system to a system to bring in salary caps and move towards drafting youngsters. Drafting players would take nearly a whole decade of removing VFL zones for clubs, removing under 19's for each VFL club here and then having all the best youngsters in nation in a pool together to pick from. Most of the early drafts were more akin to what we now have as pre-season or rookie drafts where the best youngsters were already tied to existing clubs through their zones to pick their youngsters from (example Kouta or Ratten for Carlton).
The drafts had very little talent in them. Tasmanian players and whatever players from WAFL or SANFL not signed to previous forms for VFL clubs that nominated. So clubs were not into drafting in any big way as a system until the mid 1990s when under 19's were gone and club zones gone in Victoria. West Coast was birthed under unique situation where they had to be given strong concessions of WA based players to get competitive as soon as possible and also give that club an identity, West Australians would latch onto. The league, existing clubs , Eagles and Bears were going into new territory.
It is way too simplistic approach for any of us to say Eagles were given too much or too little. Trying to compare to other franchises afterwards is trying to compare apples with oranges. You can compare concessions Gold Coast and Giants got with each other as from same era and systems. You can compare Eagles with Bears as entered same time. Beyond that it is a stretch as too many variables. For example trying to compare Eagles concessions with Giants is nuts as systems so different and Eagles were joining a pre-existing 12 club league. Massive difference than becoming 18th club in league. Similarly trying to compare Port concessions with Eagles when one club is a second from a state and the other a first. They are such differences and timings that opinions will be all over the place and biased towards which expansion club a poster is aligned with. As this thread shows.
I find it more interesting just to go back and find what options were even available at the time rather than even bothering to get caught up on whom got screwed or given too much. Then you find things like Eagles not having a reserve team meant they entered with different size lists to other clubs existing.
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You are so full of shit and blinded by your bias to Port it is laughable.
The information I presented is not misleading. You lack so much comprehension due to your bias.
Actually all I was doing was listing players with origins to WA. Whether Eagles could get access to them was not even why I was posting their names.
By the way, not even a West Coast supporter. rofl
Shows how blinded you are by your hatred for West Coast you somehow imagined in your blinded view I was a West Coast poster but I do not even go for them.
Your information on those listed players is good.
But your conclusions after that and comprehension is just worthless due to your bias.
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- #507
I have also seen the documentary and they do list a few (some of which are listed in my post above) but you don't think those guys presented the information in a biased way? I understand they have their own agenda and prerogative but it just seems to be that West Coast supporters (and the club itself) like to constantly remind everyone how hard they had it and I just don't think that's true based on the facts presented in this thread.
Retrospectively, most people would agree they were generous concessions. Did West Coast really need exclusive access to the best players in WA for another four years after finishing third in 1988? No other expansion club received concessions to that degree and if you look back in time you'll find the Crows were only given exclusive access to SANFL players for two years. The AFL were weary of creating another super team full of state players with the Crows.
What was the point of bringing up WA players who were already in the VFL when the Eagles entered? There were plenty of South Australians in the AFL when the Crows entered but you never hear Adelaide supporters constantly bringing up guys like Stephen Kernahan. I just don't understand why West Coast supporters (and a Carlton supporter now) continue to pedal this information. Hardly any of those guys would have made the WA state team in the early 90s anyway so it's mostly irrelevant to the discussion.
It's a very interesting point in history to see what WA footballers were around when Eagles were joining. I know it is not what you are interested in but some of us are. Anyway, does not matter. You thinking I was a West Coast supporter tells me how misguided you are in the way you pedal views based on faulty perceptions in your own head. Hopefully there is a lesson you got from that mistake about pre-conceived ideas. With fresh eyes , comprehension works better.
What sort of a leg up is it to have a list of 53 versus 35 ... generousity that keeps on giving with only 1 club not in the game.
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- #511
It's fine to be interested in that kind of information and upon reflection I can see you were responding to a chain of other posts that mentioned WA players that weren't playing for the Eagles so I can see why you posted what you did. It doesn't really matter which club you support because those players are mostly irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is why I pointed out why most of your post wasn't really applicable. Just for context, of all the 28 players you listed, only Bairstow, Bewick, Harding, Spalding and Winmar made the WA state team in 1991.
It wasn't a leg up and it was never intended to be a disadvantage either. It was just what the VFL thought made logical sense due to West Coast not having a reserves team. It was rectified after two seasons when the VFL realised. Despite having 18 less players, the Eagles still made the finals in 1988 so I reiterate my point that it can't have been that much of a disadvantage. Either that or the Eagles were stacked with so much talent that a lack of depth didn't stop them from making finals in their second season. Pick your poison.
Clearly you dont think one club having less players to chose from is any sort of disadvantage based on 1988. Perhaps they chose well because the original squad was anything but an Origin team. Well coached, lucky with injuries, adapted better to the national concept/travel, a few more considerations than you need consider to give credibility to your claim.
West Coast recruited 12 players, with 11 from WAFL clubs, for the 1988 season:
- Clinton Browning (East Fremantle)
- Kevin Caton (Swan Districts)
- Joe Cormack (Swan Districts)
- Shane Ellis (East Fremantle)
- Richard Geary (South Fremantle)
- Peter Higgins (Claremont)
- Brent Hutton (Swan Districts)
- Don Langsford (Swan Districts)
- Guy McKenna (Claremont)
- Murray Rance (Footscray)
- Troy Ugle (Swan Districts)
- Chris Waterman (East Fremantle)
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That list isn't exactly right as the links show. Higgins was a your draft pick 10 in the 1988 draft, not for the 1988 season. Breman (not listed) was draft pick 2 in the same draft.
Ellis, Browning were pre-season picks for the 89 season.
Karl Langdon (not on your list) was one of your pick ups as a pre-draft selection between the 87,88 seasons that you haven't listed. David O'Connell would be another.
5 more zone selections at the end of 88 after finishing in the final 5 (Sumich, Pyke, Turley, Watters, Jackson).
2 more zone selections at the end of 89 (Turnball, Mann)
2 more after 90 when you finished 3rd in the Home and Away season (White, Jackovich)
1 more after 91 after you played in a GF (J Ball).
Blokes like Cormack, Caton, Hutton and Ugle (along with Rance returning from Footscray) are further examples of how the coach of West Coast in the 2nd year (John Todd), chose players from his club Swan Districts - similar to how Ron Alexander chose players from East Fremantle in the first year and later, how Gerrard Neesham picked players from Claremont in the formation of the Dockers. They rated these players.
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Well done mate. Bit of reflection you clearly done. Appreciate you making the effort and truly got the context now.
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- #515
As mentioned above, you've mixed the players from '87 and '88 for some reason. I think a more relevant analysis would be to see how many players from a WA state team in the early 90s were recruited by the Eagles as a result of their exclusive access concessions. The 1991 WA state team:
Ben Allan - Hawthorn
Mark Bairstow - Geelong
Darren Bewick - Essendon
Paul Harding - St Kilda
Brett Heady - West Coast (1989 Pick #92)
Allen Jakovich - Melbourne
Glen Jakovich - West Coast (1990 Pre-Draft Concession)
Dean Kemp - West Coast (1989 Post-Draft Concession)
Dwayne Lamb - West Coast (1986 Exclusive WAFL Access)
Karl Langdon - West Coast (1987 Exclusive WAFL Access)
Chris Mainwaring - West Coast (1986 Exclusive WAFL Access)
Peter Matera - West Coast (1989 Pick #4)
Ashley McIntosh - West Coast (1989 Father-Son Concession)
Guy McKenna - West Coast (1987 Exclusive WAFL Access)
Don Pyke - West Coast (1988 Pre-Draft Concession)
Earl Spalding - Melbourne
Craig Starcevich - Collingwood
Peter Sumich - West Coast (1988 Pre-Draft Concession)
Craig Turley - West Coast (1988 Pre-Draft Concession)
Chris Waterman - West Coast (1987 Exclusive WAFL Access)
Scott Watters - West Coast (1988 Pre-Draft Concession)
Nicky Winmar - St Kilda
Names that are bolded and underlined are West Coast players who were recruited as a result of exclusive access concessions before any other team in the league had a chance to look at them. There are 11 players of those players listed above (half the team). There were another three West Coast players in the team that were available to other teams had they been interested in drafting them. It's also important to note other West Coast players that definitely would have been in contention to make the state team had they been available. They include John Worsfold, Chris Lewis, Michael Brennan, Peter Wilson and David Hart. It's also interesting to see 6 of the 11 players listed above that West Coast had exclusive access to came AFTER the initial list build in '86 and '87 and AFTER the Eagles had finished third and competed in the finals in 1988. They continued to receive exclusive access to WA's best talent for an extra four years between 1988-1991 while also being able to draft players from every other state in Australia, with the exception of Queensland.
We know 1991 was the year West Coast made their first Grand Final and the WA team listed above smashed Victoria 19.13 (127) - 7.9 (51) and South Australia 17.20 (122) - 11.12 (78) so 1991 is very indicative of West Australian footy being at its highest point.
I'm amazed this thread is still going!! What is there to argue about?! I'd say almost all fair-minded (and reasonably knowledgeable) football supporters would be aware that the VFL/AFL (after perhaps being a bit conservative with their initial concessions for West Coast) seriously over-corrected. They were given way too much of a recruiting advantage for a while there, and it effectively handed them their first two flags.
Maybe the thread title is a bit provocative, but nonetheless, being able to pick up players outside of the draft like Jakovich and McKenna (two of the best in their position I've ever seen), plus Langdon, Mainwaring, Pyke, Sumich etc. handed that club a massive edge. So many of us have been unhappy with the advantages handed to GWS in recent times (fearing that they would be unstoppable for a few years), but looking back at those earlier years of the national competition, what was done to assist West Coast was probably of similar value!
Maybe the thread title is a bit provocative, but nonetheless, being able to pick up players outside of the draft like Jakovich and McKenna (two of the best in their position I've ever seen), plus Langdon, Mainwaring, Pyke, Sumich etc. handed that club a massive edge. So many of us have been unhappy with the advantages handed to GWS in recent times (fearing that they would be unstoppable for a few years), but looking back at those earlier years of the national competition, what was done to assist West Coast was probably of similar value!
I was challenging your suggestion (poorly) that because the Eagles did well in 1988 they were not entitled to the same number of players as all the other clubs already had (priority).
Yes, the Eagles of the early 90s was a squad worthy of Origin status, even though Jako debuted in Origin whilst on Sth Freos list.
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Except that it wasn't by design. If the VFL wanted a powerhouse WA side (a la their introduction of GWS in the 2010s) they would've given us free rein to sign as many Western Australian (or other) players as we wanted and given us a full list of 52 players and not done things like make us pay the $4m license fee up front at short notice and cover our own airfares etc.
Remember it was the 1980s and no one gave a shit about the draft. Clubs were trading top draft picks for magic beans right up until, well, whenever Cameron Schwab left Freo. We stumbled upon the blueprint for modern footy success more than anything. WAFL had been pillaged for years, couldn't poach WA stars contracted to VFL clubs, couldn't participate in the VFL draft... the only real option left was to draft young WA players with promise and as history would have it that turned out well.
I don't think any AFL or VFL side has had 20 or 22 players all play in the state side?
All I remember from the 90's is this:
and then this:
All I remember from the 90's is this:
and then this:
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Introducing a new club effectively from scratch is always going to be problematic to get a balance right.
Obviously you need to grant concessions that are unique and effectively grant them additional access to a pool of younger kids.
If that pool of young kids is strong, and you can pick the right kids then you can create a strong list.
But pick the wrong kids from a softer talent pool and you end up as a battler for your first decade. Did the AFL dud the Suns as what almost a decade into their existence they are back to rock bottom after never doing anything?
WC obviously benefited from great timing with elite juniors coming through, and they picked the right kids. Good on them, and then they made their own luck and then being a well run club, appointing a good coach etc. they won some flags.
Obviously you need to grant concessions that are unique and effectively grant them additional access to a pool of younger kids.
If that pool of young kids is strong, and you can pick the right kids then you can create a strong list.
But pick the wrong kids from a softer talent pool and you end up as a battler for your first decade. Did the AFL dud the Suns as what almost a decade into their existence they are back to rock bottom after never doing anything?
WC obviously benefited from great timing with elite juniors coming through, and they picked the right kids. Good on them, and then they made their own luck and then being a well run club, appointing a good coach etc. they won some flags.
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See folks, it's not that hard to look at something objectively.
I find the Freo vs Port concessions interesting because they entered two years apart in the same mid 90s era. Did the AFL dud Freo relative to Port?
I find the Freo vs Port concessions interesting because they entered two years apart in the same mid 90s era. Did the AFL dud Freo relative to Port?
Its not as if those listed with clubs before the expansion(s) are raided by the new team, 600 odd priorities exercised before the Eagles & this thread examines the Eagles getting 10+ priorities - not exactly a science.
How many players from the 1985 WA Teal Cup (now NAB Under 18 Championship) side ended up playing for West Coast?
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