#26 Sam Weideman - traded to Essendon. Adieu

[Topkent]

I liked Dom's game last night, but I'm not convinced that he plays that role better than Jesse. Vandenberg too, his tackling was a bit down and he burned the ball whenever he got it. There's definitely room for Hogan, he just needs to compete a bit harder at ground level.

Change 'a bit harder' to 'compete at all' and that's Hogan. Also what game were you watching that Vanders burned it? I know you don't really like him but strange to pick on him when Gus had 7 disposals in the first 3 quarters.

Hogan could play it more effectively than Tyson yeah but that's not much of a compliment.

 

[Topkent]

Might work if we had a 19th player on the field, wouldn't if we still had 18. If we have two tall forwards, generally at least one should be staying at home. Last night we got sucked up the ground flooding our own back half - would've just meant three tall forwards doing that instead of two. Glad they sorted that out, put a forward structure back in place and buried the game in the 4th.

Didn't seem like adding an extra tall would have done Jack s**t to me. What we needed was a bloke who could get it off the deck on the wing and run and bounce to turn the hawks defenders around. They had it easy defending us because they weren't scared of us getting in behind.

 

[Tulip]

Change 'a bit harder' to 'compete at all' and that's Hogan. Also what game were you watching that Vanders burned it? I know you don't really like him but strange to pick on him when Gus had 7 disposals in the first 3 quarters.

Hogan could play it more effectively than Tyson yeah but that's not much of a compliment.

I don't dislike Vanders, I reckon he's been awesome since the Eagles game and I really admire how he's gonna about it since his dad passed away. I haven't watched the replay, but Vanders only had one tackle and he sprayed both his chances at goal with low percentage ballooning kicks. Looking at the stats, he went at 53% disposal efficiency, so I suspect my eye test on this was fairly accurate. Gus was well shut down by Shiels, but they play different roles. If we have a whole bunch of guys competing for a wing/half forward role and we want them to take marks, kick a handful and tackle hard then it wasn't VdB's best game. Never in doubt to play next week though, you're allowed a quiet game.

 

[Cannon82]

I liked Dom's game last night, but I'm not convinced that he plays that role better than Jesse. Vandenberg too, his tackling was a bit down and he burned the ball whenever he got it. There's definitely room for Hogan, he just needs to compete a bit harder at ground level.

I agree its too early to tell, but watching Weid wrestle his opponent out of the way and mark it last night... having watched Hogan try and outpoint his opponent and fail on countless occasions, certainly stacking up evidence that Weid can play the role better. Clearly we have three very good tall forward options. For mine, TMac is a gun and his output is ahead of the other two. Weid vs Hogan... I prefer the way Weid plays and he has more of the attributes you want in a key forward. If they're all fit at the start of next season, is Jesse in ahead of the Weid? Probably... not sure for how long, though.

 

[Tulip]

I agree its too early to tell, but watching Weid wrestle his opponent out of the way and mark it last night... having watched Hogan try and outpoint his opponent and fail on countless occasions, certainly stacking up evidence that Weid can play the role better. Clearly we have three very good tall forward options. For mine, TMac is a gun and his output is ahead of the other two. Weid vs Hogan... I prefer the way Weid plays and he has more of the attributes you want in a key forward. If they're all fit at the start of next season, is Jesse in ahead of the Weid? Probably... not sure for how long, though.

That's why I'd get Hogan out of the forward line. Hogan's a better footballer, but Weideman is doing the things you want from a meat and potatoes centre half forward. Take mark at highest point, use frame well, kick straight.

 

[Cannon82]

That's why I'd get Hogan out of the forward line. Hogan's a better footballer, but Weideman is doing the things you want from a meat and potatoes centre half forward. Take mark at highest point, use frame well, kick straight.

Yes, but there's this growing myth that Hogan is an elite winger / midfielder. He's not. He gets a fair few possies up there partly because I suspect his direct opponent is happy to let a goal threat wander down to the half-back flank for a few cheapies. I know I would be.

 

[Topkent]

I don't dislike Vanders, I reckon he's been awesome since the Eagles game and I really admire how he's gonna about it since his dad passed away. I haven't watched the replay, but Vanders only had one tackle and he sprayed both his chances at goal with low percentage ballooning kicks. Looking at the stats, he went at 53% disposal efficiency, so I suspect my eye test on this was fairly accurate. Gus was well shut down by Shiels, but they play different roles. If we have a whole bunch of guys competing for a wing/half forward role and we want them to take marks, kick a handful and tackle hard then it wasn't VdB's best game. Never in doubt to play next week though, you're allowed a quiet game.

He sprayed 2 and hit the post with 1, but yeah I'll agree his out put was down. Tend to think he must have been carrying a niggle because he looked slower than the week before.

I think you will find shiels tagged Oliver mate. Gus just couldn't get involved

 

[Topkent]

Yes, but there's this growing myth that Hogan is an elite winger / midfielder. He's not. He gets a fair few possies up there partly because I suspect his direct opponent is happy to let a goal threat wander down to the half-back flank for a few cheapies. I know I would be.

There's alot of Jack watts about Hogan, his best is awesome but he has major flaws and alot of people think the team should bend to fit him rather than the other way around.

For mine when you are looking to fit a highly paid forward into a wing role your clutching an straws big time.

Richo and Riewoldt played the roles late in their careers to make room for the next gen FF not because they played their best footy there.

 

[00Stinger]

He sprayed 2 and hit the post with 1, but yeah I'll agree his out put was down. Tend to think he must have been carrying a niggle because he looked slower than the week before.

I think you will find shiels tagged Oliver mate. Gus just couldn't get involved

Howe tagged Gus

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[PerfectFooty]

I like that he still found a way to remain involved and hit the score board despite the Hawks putting some time into him.

Break out game last week, but even with Weid out of it, Trac managed to have his

 

[stEdy]

His tackling for a big bloke is immense

Especially with our smalls firing on the tackling front, also having your talls lay a couple of bone crunching tackles must be demoralising to play against.

He nearly had a few more marks but I loved that contested grab and goal he kicked at the start of the 3rd. Much like the rest of the team, he found ways to impact and help out throughout the game. Very impressive

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

There's alot of Jack watts about Hogan, his best is awesome but he has major flaws and alot of people think the team should bend to fit him rather than the other way around.

For mine when you are looking to fit a highly paid forward into a wing role your clutching an straws big time.

Richo and Riewoldt played the roles late in their careers to make room for the next gen FF not because they played their best footy there.

Dead-set the silliest thing you've said to date, mate.

 

[The Dr]

Didn't seem like adding an extra tall would have done Jack s**t to me. What we needed was a bloke who could get it off the deck on the wing and run and bounce to turn the hawks defenders around. They had it easy defending us because they weren't scared of us getting in behind.

So you’re saying we need outside pace and class?


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[Cannon82]

Dead-set the silliest thing you've said to date, mate.

Hardly a constructive response. I don't think Watts and Hogan are in the same postcode in terms of talent versus delivery, but otherwise everything else is spot on. Hogan has flaws, people are suggesting we should fit him in somewhere, anywhere, and even if you think he'll do a job on the wing, expecting him to have the same impact as the likes of Nick Riewoldt or Richardson doesn't seem likely.

 

[Tulip]

Hardly a constructive response. I don't think Watts and Hogan are in the same postcode in terms of talent versus delivery, but otherwise everything else is spot on. Hogan has flaws, people are suggesting we should fit him in somewhere, anywhere, and even if you think he'll do a job on the wing, expecting him to have the same impact as the likes of Nick Riewoldt or Richardson doesn't seem likely.

When Riewoldt was playing that CHF/wing role between 2015-17, he was going at 16-20 touches, 8-10 marks, and 1.5~ goals a game. If Hogan slims down a bit, I don't see which opponent is going to have the endurance and size to stop him.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Hardly a constructive response. I don't think Watts and Hogan are in the same postcode in terms of talent versus delivery, but otherwise everything else is spot on. Hogan has flaws, people are suggesting we should fit him in somewhere, anywhere, and even if you think he'll do a job on the wing, expecting him to have the same impact as the likes of Nick Riewoldt or Richardson doesn't seem likely.

I enjoy that supporting TK on Hogan is the hill you’ve chosen to die on. No sarcasm either, genuinely interested. I perversely hope it works out for you too

 

[Topkent]

Dead-set the silliest thing you've said to date, mate.

You have clearly missed alot of my work over the years.

The comparison was simply that people made excuses for Jack Watts lack of effort for years and there was always an excuse why he didn't play well.

Firstly it was he was put in the side too young.
Then it was that he should play in defence
Then on a wing
Then he should play forward.
All of this over 10 years when in reality he could have played anywhere but he didn't pressure at all.

Hogans the same, you could play him on the wing. But is he going to continue to let players walk around him? Is he gonna be flat footed at marking contests and allow himself to be shut down? Will he still appeal for free kicks mid contest?

Saying he can do what one of the all time great CHFs did is just as hopeful as it is factual.

As a question if we are planning on playing Hogan as a bloody winger why would we just trade him and then trade WC for gaff? A bloke who actually plays on the wing?

I'm starting to come around to keeping him because what I think is wrong with him is fixable but if we play him on a wing next year and it isn't successful his value will half.

 

[Topkent]

I enjoy that supporting TK on Hogan is the hill you’ve chosen to die on. No sarcasm either, genuinely interested. I perversely hope it works out for you too

You make it sound like its only us two? I'd say it's ~50% split on here now.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

You make it sound like its only us two? I'd say it's ~50% split on here now.

I consider myself in a third camp: the ‘get picks 4 and 5 at all costs’ camp

 

[Topkent]

I consider myself in a third camp: the ‘get picks 4 and 5 at all costs’ camp

Oh the Cameron Schwab camp.

 

[HANDSOLO]

I enjoy that supporting TK on Hogan is the hill you’ve chosen to die on. No sarcasm either, genuinely interested. I perversely hope it works out for you too

Dude I was an early person with this view as well. I actually think there are about 5 people on this board that aren’t in the camp that encompasses somewhere between he’s got A fair amount of s**t to work on on one end and pick 4 and 5 on the other. So it’s not really dying on the hill - it’s more like taking the hill- and then if leaving it for the VC to recapture at a alatwr date LOL

It’s just such a circular argument most people don’t post anymore about him. Instead we look to the exciting future and positives like Sam Wiederman - the topic of the thread btw!

Go Dees

I want to hear what Dr Truth has to say on this!

 

[Cannon82]

When Riewoldt was playing that CHF/wing role between 2015-17, he was going at 16-20 touches, 8-10 marks, and 1.5~ goals a game. If Hogan slims down a bit, I don't see which opponent is going to have the endurance and size to stop him.

Riewoldt was faster and could burn players on the lead regularly. I think Hogan still has a fair bit to learn before he slips into the shoes of former multiple All-Australian players. Agree he would be a difficult match up on the wing, but so would the likes of Gaff, Isaac Smith, etc.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Hardly a constructive response. I don't think Watts and Hogan are in the same postcode in terms of talent versus delivery, but otherwise everything else is spot on. Hogan has flaws, people are suggesting we should fit him in somewhere, anywhere, and even if you think he'll do a job on the wing, expecting him to have the same impact as the likes of Nick Riewoldt or Richardson doesn't seem likely.

You are the king of constructive responses I suppose?

Hogan’s tank will allow him to play as a roaming CHF.

McDonald out of the square, Weid as 2nd ruck.

All three are mobile and two have elite tanks.

McDonald and Hogan are two quality players.

Weid has also shown that we need to play him, he deserves a chance to develop given his performances so far in finals

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

You have clearly missed alot of my work over the years.

The comparison was simply that people made excuses for Jack Watts lack of effort for years and there was always an excuse why he didn't play well.

Firstly it was he was put in the side too young.
Then it was that he should play in defence
Then on a wing
Then he should play forward.
All of this over 10 years when in reality he could have played anywhere but he didn't pressure at all.

Hogans the same, you could play him on the wing. But is he going to continue to let players walk around him? Is he gonna be flat footed at marking contests and allow himself to be shut down? Will he still appeal for free kicks mid contest?

Saying he can do what one of the all time great CHFs did is just as hopeful as it is factual.

As a question if we are planning on playing Hogan as a bloody winger why would we just trade him and then trade WC for gaff? A bloke who actually plays on the wing?

I'm starting to come around to keeping him because what I think is wrong with him is fixable but if we play him on a wing next year and it isn't successful his value will half.

Agree that wing is not the answer.

He’s a tall forward with a big tank - get him involved up the field and back into the fifty.

He does need to simplify his game a little, get back to basics

 

[Cannon82]

You are the king of constructive responses I suppose?

Hogan’s tank will allow him to play as a roaming CHF.

McDonald out of the square, Weid as 2nd ruck.

All three are mobile and two have elite tanks.

McDonald and Hogan are two quality players.

Weid has also shown that we need to play him, he deserves a chance to develop given his performances so far in finals

I definitely am not, but you're usually better than that. Been an angrier slant to your posts recently.

If Hogan is a wandering CHF and TMac is the FF, where is the Weid playing when Gawn is on the field (80% of the game)? I think we're showing what works for us right now, and it isn't three tall forwards crammed into the same forward setup.