No Oppo Supporters Hawks and Pokies

[Brishawk]

If it is so special relative to anything that can be measured then would be great to see the numbers released by HFC and others.

Any numbers?

Not on hand but I believe the revenue is more than a million. In any case I’m happy to sell it. My point is we wouldn’t be in it if there was no money in it and there are many factors other than revenue that can contribute to reasons why stock market value isn’t a good guide nor time to sell off pokies related assets.

 

[Steven Tyler]

We can do better.

While the evidence is everywhere to pick just three data points:
- CSI Markets rank the sector 44th overall in terms of financial attractiveness
- Stern Business School rank the sector 34th overall in terms of return on investment
- Woolies are pulling out of the sector for many reasons including to protect their reputation

It’s just not that profitable.

Cheers

Must be if we are making a profit of over $2mil per year every year for quite a while now!

Whilst that is happening I don’t see us selling off our pokies to ease some supporters conscience

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Add money laundering.

Whistleblower reveals 'alarming' scale of money laundering in pokies rooms of clubs and pubs

A whistleblower and former employee of ClubsNSW claims that money laundering through poker machines is rife in pubs and clubs across the country.

mobile.abc.net.au

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Not sure about the business model being to put them in low socio economic areas.

Well you're unsure, but wrong.
I know, I used to be part of the problem. I saw every $ of every EGM.
The figures in sunshine leave kew in the shade.

 

[Brant]

Thanks for being really clear with your argument.

I’ve clipped the main bit I don’t understand - why do you think pokies are necessary for us to be able to buy new equipment?

I am sure that most successful clubs in most sports don’t own gambling venues - yet they can afford equipment and they enjoy success.

Why are pokies critical to our success?

You've clearly done some good research/reading on the sector within the economy, but I reckon the answer to your question is (IMO & I'm sure shared by lots) the answer that we don't want to hear. Thanks for keeping it interesting, instead of just slinging the morality issue back & forth.

It's easy, dumb, reliable money. In essence, you buy some licenses, put them near people with plenty of time & a penchant for burning money (likely, old &/or poor people), sit back & reap the financial rewards. From memory, it's worth about $2m to us a year.

So, with no skill, experience, ability, human resource costs or even maintenance, we plug them in & walk away let addicts or vulnerable people do the work. Financially speaking, it's low risk & a very reliable source of revenue for a sports club. Then, I think there's tax breaks etc., but I don't know about that. I think Brishawk said something about it.

I 100% hope & trust that pokies are not 'critical' to our success; however, I 100% believe that the $2m per year is critical to our success. And not just our on-field success, but to our independence from the AFL.






*IMO, it's a sad & dirty form of gambling - but I'm in Perth & we don't have pokies at pubs etc., so I only see it at casinos & on when visiting interstate. I don't see the entirety of the issue, but I see enough to know to never waste a single $1 on them.

 

[Milkshaker]

Well you're unsure, but wrong.
I know, I used to be part of the problem. I saw every $ of every EGM.
The figures in sunshine leave kew in the shade.

Pretty sure I referred to Tasmania in my post. Cant speak for mainland states whereas you obviously can.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Glenorchy/ moonah is full of them, as is howrah.
Same in Tas as the big island, deliberately concentrated on areas of low socioeconomic standings.
Pension day used to see a doubling of turnover.

 

[TazHawk15]

Drugs, Zyban.
Do you have any psychological training?
My 3 sisters in laws all do, and all say you're incorrect.

Any chance of giving the “My three sister in laws say” line, a rest?

You have three sister-in-law laws and you have intimate knowledge of the poker industry, WE GET IT.

What you need to learn though is how to not come across as a twat when someone does not agree with you, ask one of the sister in laws about some tips in how to cope with this phenomenon.

Ease up on the “I am right” and you “are wrong” routine, because it’s boring and predictable and you are like clockwork in using it.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Tldr: you hate being wrong and go on the attack when shown up.

 

[TazHawk15]

Tldr: you hate being wrong and go on the attack when shown up.

You are a Ninja in irony.

All you have done in this thread is attack people who have a different opinion to you, usually with “I have three sister in laws” and “I know the poke industry inside out” blah blah blah, rinse and repeat.

It’s the ignore list for you sunshine.

Adios.

 

[flinchfree]

Science disagrees. Pokies are addictive. Appreciate everyone has different views but let’s at least no divorce opinions from positions established through research

From the Science, Phsychology Today:

"There is nothing pathological about having fun and feeling enjoyment. We were created with these feelings and this potential. Engaging in a pleasurable activity is not inherently wrong. But the line between activity and addiction lies where an activity that is positive or neutral takes a decidedly negative turn. Whether it is watching Netflix, social media, going to the gym, eating healthy, eating junk food, having sex, or playing video games, each of these activities have a line that crosses into negative territory. With addictive behaviors that do not involve chemical substances, there are a series of conditions you can use to determine severity.

Importance: How important has it become to your sense of self and the way you live your life? You can determine importance not only by how much you’re doing it, but also by how much you’re not doing other things. Priority equals importance.

Reward response: Does doing it make you feel better, more in control? Does not doing it make you feel worse? Doing things you enjoy makes you feel better. Avoiding things you dislike can make you feel better, at least initially. There is a positive physical payoff to all this activity that can obscure the negative consequences.

Prevalence: Do you find yourself doing it more often and for longer periods of time than you originally planned? This is the never-enough compulsion. If you feel compelled to say, “Just a little bit more,” all the time, you’re carving out more and more space in your life for these activities. The question becomes, in order to carve out this time, to what else are you taking the knife?

Cessation: Do you feel anxious or uncomfortable if you cannot do it or if you just think about not doing it? One way to gauge how important these things have become to you is to consider doing without them. Your initial emotional and physical response can be highly instructive. The higher the level of panic and pain you anticipate, the stronger the hold they have on you.

Disruption: Has doing it disrupted your life and your relationships? Imagine your life as a drawer full of those old-school hanging folders. The drawer only has so much space for files. Every time you add a file called “Texting” or “Facebook” or “Checking in” or “Video Games” you have to push folders around to find room in the drawer. Inside that drawer are already files called “Sleep,” “Family,” “Chores” and “Work.” Some of the files in your drawer aren’t fun; they’re thick and heavy and take up a lot of space. The more new stuff you’re trying to pack into that drawer of your life, the more pressure it puts on the things and people already there.

Reverting: Do you often say to yourself you’re going to do something different but then turn around and keep doing the same thing—or doing it even more? This is the “I’ll diet again on Monday” syndrome. If you’ve already made room in your virtual file drawer for something fun and pleasurable, or at least distracting, just thinking about depriving yourself of it brings up a wealth of rationales and reasons why “right now” is just not the best time to stop.

All of these signs point to a much bigger problem: addiction. Addiction is a behavior that controls you. Absent an outside chemical or substance involved, it’s actually you—your impulses, your pleasures, your anxieties, your fears, your preferences—taking center stage over your better judgment or reasoned decisions. If you believe you are struggling with an addition that is negatively impacting the quality and health of your life, it may be time to seek assistance from a professional. "

 

[flinchfree]

And from WebMD:

"Whether it pops up in an article about a celebrity who can’t seem to kick his drug habit, or your friend uses it as a joking excuse why she can’t tear herself away from the game Candy Crush, the phrase “addictive personality” gets tossed around a lot these days.

The basic idea: While most people can have a cocktail, buy a lottery ticket, or even experiment with drugs without getting hooked, those born with a specific personality type are wired to fall down the rabbit hole of addiction the moment they take their first sip, smoke, or bite.

You may wonder: Do I have an addictive personality?

“Addictive personality is not an actual psychiatric diagnosis,” says Michael Weaver, MD, medical director of the Center for Neurobehavioral Research on Addiction at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston. “Personalities are very complex, and while there’s not one specific type that’s more prone to addiction than others, there are several factors that can combine to make you more likely to become addicted.”

Research studies are ongoing, but here’s what we know:

You may have something in your genes: “It has absolutely been proven over and over again that there is a genetic component to addiction,” Weaver says. For example, by studying twins as well as children who were born to addicted parents but then adopted by non-addicted families, scientists have found that your genes are responsible for about half your likelihood for becoming addicted.

Genes alone aren’t enough: Even if you come from a family with a long history of addiction, it doesn’t mean you’re destined to follow in their footsteps. Many other factors, such as the friends you hang out with, your education, your social support, and the environment you grow up in will all play a part in whether you become addicted.

“You can’t exhibit addictive behaviors to a substance unless you’re exposed to that substance,” says J. Wesley Boyd, MD, PhD, an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School.

Yes, if you have one addiction, you're more likely to have another: Studies of college students confirm that if you’re addicted to one thing, say alcohol, you are more likely to have an additional addiction, like cigarettes. That may be partly because of genetics and partly because of what’s around you: “If you’ve been in a situation where there is alcohol or drugs available, there are probably also going to be cigarettes there, too,” Weaver says.

There’s no medical test to determine who may develop an addiction, but there are certain personality traits that are more common among people who have addictions:

A love of excitement: Driving fast, taking risks, having sexual flings, and doing drugs all provide a rush of dopamine, a chemical in the brain that makes you feel pleasure. Addictive people crave that surge in dopamine more than others, Boyd says.

The need for more to get the same thrill: “People who are prone to addiction say the best they ever felt in their life was the first time they tried heroin or had a drink,” Boyd says. As their addiction grows, they develop tolerance and need to consume larger quantities at a greater frequency to try to re-create that initial buzz.

Impulsivity: Studies that looked at the brains of addicts found they’re more likely to make snap decisions without considering the long-term consequences.

Inability to quit: A person continues to seek out the substance or behavior even when it gets in the way of family, job, education, and friends, Boyd says.

The important thing to remember is that your personality doesn’t determine your fate, Weaver says: “You can get help and lead a successful, productive life.” The first step, he adds, is acknowledging the potential problem -- and just by asking yourself whether you have an addictive personality, you’re already on the right track."

 

[Gralin]

From the Science, Phsychology Today:

"There is nothing pathological about having fun and feeling enjoyment. We were created with these feelings and this potential. Engaging in a pleasurable activity is not inherently wrong. But the line between activity and addiction lies where an activity that is positive or neutral takes a decidedly negative turn. Whether it is watching Netflix, social media, going to the gym, eating healthy, eating junk food, having sex, or playing video games, each of these activities have a line that crosses into negative territory. With addictive behaviors that do not involve chemical substances, there are a series of conditions you can use to determine severity.

Importance: How important has it become to your sense of self and the way you live your life? You can determine importance not only by how much you’re doing it, but also by how much you’re not doing other things. Priority equals importance.

Reward response: Does doing it make you feel better, more in control? Does not doing it make you feel worse? Doing things you enjoy makes you feel better. Avoiding things you dislike can make you feel better, at least initially. There is a positive physical payoff to all this activity that can obscure the negative consequences.

Prevalence: Do you find yourself doing it more often and for longer periods of time than you originally planned? This is the never-enough compulsion. If you feel compelled to say, “Just a little bit more,” all the time, you’re carving out more and more space in your life for these activities. The question becomes, in order to carve out this time, to what else are you taking the knife?

Cessation: Do you feel anxious or uncomfortable if you cannot do it or if you just think about not doing it? One way to gauge how important these things have become to you is to consider doing without them. Your initial emotional and physical response can be highly instructive. The higher the level of panic and pain you anticipate, the stronger the hold they have on you.

Disruption: Has doing it disrupted your life and your relationships? Imagine your life as a drawer full of those old-school hanging folders. The drawer only has so much space for files. Every time you add a file called “Texting” or “Facebook” or “Checking in” or “Video Games” you have to push folders around to find room in the drawer. Inside that drawer are already files called “Sleep,” “Family,” “Chores” and “Work.” Some of the files in your drawer aren’t fun; they’re thick and heavy and take up a lot of space. The more new stuff you’re trying to pack into that drawer of your life, the more pressure it puts on the things and people already there.

Reverting: Do you often say to yourself you’re going to do something different but then turn around and keep doing the same thing—or doing it even more? This is the “I’ll diet again on Monday” syndrome. If you’ve already made room in your virtual file drawer for something fun and pleasurable, or at least distracting, just thinking about depriving yourself of it brings up a wealth of rationales and reasons why “right now” is just not the best time to stop.

All of these signs point to a much bigger problem: addiction. Addiction is a behavior that controls you. Absent an outside chemical or substance involved, it’s actually you—your impulses, your pleasures, your anxieties, your fears, your preferences—taking center stage over your better judgment or reasoned decisions. If you believe you are struggling with an addition that is negatively impacting the quality and health of your life, it may be time to seek assistance from a professional. "

Honest question
Do you think that nobody taps into that for their own benefit when it comes to making money?

Do you think that products or marketing/advertising that tries to use known psychological triggers and weaknesses in people is ok because it's not directly chemical.

Do you understand that everybody produces chemicals and that a lot of reactions to situations are based on how our body produces chemicals in those situations.

That you can trigger physiological reactions with lights and sounds?

 

[flinchfree]

CBT, or cognitive behavioral therapy is is a form of psychotherapy that focuses on modifying dysfunctional emotions, behaviors and thoughts by interrogating and uprooting negative or irrational beliefs.

It is far more effective in treating addiction (outside of drug dependency) than any other method, because it involves understanding and being present or mindful in evaluating your actions. This strongly promotes choice as both possible and effective when you re-balance and evaluate what it is functionally positive behavior and what effectively is not.

Those who find themselves addicted to anything are driven to their activity not because the activity itself is inherently pleasurable or delivers positive outcomes or has been designed to be addictive, but because they find certain repeated 'behaviors' pleasurable etc.

Anyways, everyone can continue with their hard on for the glaring ring a ding dingers and completely ignore the patient and their underlying ill health.

 

[flinchfree]

Honest question
Do you think that nobody taps into that for their own benefit when it comes to making money?

Do you think that products or marketing/advertising that tries to use known psychological triggers and weaknesses in people is ok because it's not directly chemical.

Do you understand that everybody produces chemicals and that a lot of reactions to situations are based on how our body produces chemicals in those situations.

That you can trigger physiological reactions with lights and sounds?

I do completely. And it's a world filled with those triggers, I see them every minute of every day.
And as a person who has had addictions to multiple things myself including the darts, marijuana, food, and bad relationships, I've worked through life understanding that I need to work through stuff.
I love the internet, love the lotto, but make sure I don't combine those two in to finding gambling on-line because my gut and brain tell me instinctively that it would be a bad road to step down.
So I don't.
But I also don't expect others to have to forsake an activity that they manage quite comfortably on a plane ride on occasion, so that I am simply screened from the risk of being exposed to it.

My Mum battled bulimia all her life and I grew up knowing the smell of retch in the toilet bowl every time I went in there, and we never discussed it. It was our secret. And I too feared being fat so created my own methods of control so that boxes of Chicken in a biscuit or Snack bars with the fruit flavors didn't litter my floor.
But it never occurred to me that no-one else should have them just because I couldn't or shouldn't.

Now, many years on and with the growing epidemic of obesity and diabetes and cancers fed by sugars that seemingly target such a large portion of our society, my thinking is swayed from seeing myself as a small minority negatively affected to understanding that it is hurting the vast majority.

And that's where the line is for me.
I don't reckon gambling and in PARTICULAR pokies are an effective tool at all in targeting the general populace in producing addicting behaviors, most people are actually put off by them or tolerate the occasional coin drop.
And it's the relative few who have the worst of it that will need help regardless of what they're exposed to, because it's the BEHAVIOUR that addicting.

Pokies shmokies.

 

[flinchfree]

Honest question
Do you think that nobody taps into that for their own benefit when it comes to making money?

Do you think that products or marketing/advertising that tries to use known psychological triggers and weaknesses in people is ok because it's not directly chemical.

Do you understand that everybody produces chemicals and that a lot of reactions to situations are based on how our body produces chemicals in those situations.

That you can trigger physiological reactions with lights and sounds?

And yes, I agree, we are seduced by shiny wrapping daily to participate in unhealthy activities.
It's age old. Women have accepted for an eternity and a day flashing jewellery to allow hairy smelly men near them. Now they have access to their own shiny stuff and it's been downhill for us ever since.

You could examine every single human activity and find the same subterfuge.
Sports dress their players up in outfits to attract, put it in a setting that's filled with sounds that excite, put it under lights so that it's visually more stimulating, offer 'experiences' like meeting players at training or parades or other to convey connectedness, associate food and alcohol during watching to conflate multiple physical stimulants and feelings of pleasure, etc etc.
If it was just a bunch of blokes turning up to a paddock in whatever garb and playing 120 minutes, then going home, you might not go every week or pay up for that membership.

Life is as much about the constant greasing to keep us entertained and non combative as it is about real issues of human substance. Keep us fat and woozy and were unlikely to upset the apple cart that rewards just a few so very generously.

My Mum, a reasonably renowned Psych herself (Organisational Psych for Telecom for nearly 30 years, introduced many of the leading best practices for training and retention of workforce) used to say she hated capitalism.
I responded by saying 'Sure, we'll scrap it when we find something better...'

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

You are a Ninja in irony.
It’s the ignore list for you sunshine.

What have you added apart from abuse?
Nothing.

 

[Milkshaker]

Glenorchy/ moonah is full of them, as is howrah.
Same in Tas as the big island, deliberately concentrated on areas of low socioeconomic standings.
Pension day used to see a doubling of turnover.

They still have not been placed in these areas as you state. They are all in licenced premises that have existed well before the of the rise of the machines. As such those businesses have been best situated to be given licences regardless of their locations.

Most of the pubs and clubs they are in have been around forever.

 

[Brishawk]

CBT, or cognitive behavioral therapy is is a form of psychotherapy that focuses on modifying dysfunctional emotions, behaviors and thoughts by interrogating and uprooting negative or irrational beliefs.

It is far more effective in treating addiction (outside of drug dependency) than any other method, because it involves understanding and being present or mindful in evaluating your actions. This strongly promotes choice as both possible and effective when you re-balance and evaluate what it is functionally positive behavior and what effectively is not.

Those who find themselves addicted to anything are driven to their activity not because the activity itself is inherently pleasurable or delivers positive outcomes or has been designed to be addictive, but because they find certain repeated 'behaviors' pleasurable etc.

Anyways, everyone can continue with their hard on for the glaring ring a ding dingers and completely ignore the patient and their underlying ill health.

I will respond in full to this later but I’m short, none of what you post denies the fact that pokies have been designed to encourage repetitive, compulsive play of pokies machines which would be commonly considered indicative of a pokies addiction even if a technical definition places the addiction on the behaviour patterns as opposed to the devices. You can’t seperate the poker machines from the behaviour. This is not to say other destructive behaviour patterns don’t exist in the same person.

 

[marklar]

From a performance perspective pokies just aren’t that great. Many sectors outperform gambling in general.

Please show how pokies are attractive financially - produce a counter argument of any description.

I don't have the data to back it up any more, but I did once enquire from a family member that was in the industry in sales and service.

An average machine (in terms of popularity with the players) in an average location (not affluent, not poor) will pay for itself in 6 months. Everything after that is pure profit. That's when the payout schedule was at minimum 87% return to players, but most of them at the time I asked were paying higher, some up to 97% and they were still at around that 6 months to be profitable metric.

An unpopular game took more than 12 months to be profitable, so it was usually converted to a different game (different theme, different payout schedule, etc.) and potentially moved to a different location in the venue (better lighting, closer to the bar, on the way to the toilets, etc.)

I don't think the industry metrics would have changed much since then, there's decades of data analysis and realistically not much competition, you're not going to drive across town to play the pokies if there's a local venue you can play instead.

There's a lot more detail I can go into on the statistics, return to player calculations, game conversion themes and the theories behind them. Given the overall mood here though it's probably best to not go into it right now.

 

[cryptor]

Many sectors have performed better than gambling - take your pick if you want better returns. Classified advertising, healthcare, renewable energy, technology consulting - there are dozens of better sectors.

But I wouldn’t rush from being overweight in one asset to being overweight in another asset - hence I think your question perhaps isn’t the right one to ask.

I assume no one here has their own investment portfolio stacked with gambling stocks to the extent our club has - why overweight so heavily in this one area?

You're talking about stocks. Hawthorn hold the licence to operate the pokies machines themselves.

If Hawthorn gave up their permit to operate pokies machines it would be snapped up by another entity so fast.

 

[Cyril says]

If Hawthorn gave up their permit to operate pokies machines it would be snapped up by another entity so fast.

If the market for these assets is as good as you say, then we certainly would get a fair price if/when we sell.

Very good news!

 

[Cyril says]

I don't have the data to back it up any more, but I did once enquire from a family member that was in the industry in sales and service.

An average machine (in terms of popularity with the players) in an average location (not affluent, not poor) will pay for itself in 6 months. Everything after that is pure profit. That's when the payout schedule was at minimum 87% return to players, but most of them at the time I asked were paying higher, some up to 97% and they were still at around that 6 months to be profitable metric.

An unpopular game took more than 12 months to be profitable, so it was usually converted to a different game (different theme, different payout schedule, etc.) and potentially moved to a different location in the venue (better lighting, closer to the bar, on the way to the toilets, etc.)

I don't think the industry metrics would have changed much since then, there's decades of data analysis and realistically not much competition, you're not going to drive across town to play the pokies if there's a local venue you can play instead.

There's a lot more detail I can go into on the statistics, return to player calculations, game conversion themes and the theories behind them. Given the overall mood here though it's probably best to not go into it right now.

Terrific post. I 100% believe what you say here is true.

I understand that the non-machine related costs (property, staff, security, utilities, licensing, marketing, financing) and the need to keep the machines somewhat current, result in a return on invested capital in the 15-20% range.

Not awful, but not stellar either.

Thanks for adding to this important conversation about our club and the investments we are associated with.

 

[Brishawk]

I don't have the data to back it up any more, but I did once enquire from a family member that was in the industry in sales and service.

An average machine (in terms of popularity with the players) in an average location (not affluent, not poor) will pay for itself in 6 months. Everything after that is pure profit. That's when the payout schedule was at minimum 87% return to players, but most of them at the time I asked were paying higher, some up to 97% and they were still at around that 6 months to be profitable metric.

An unpopular game took more than 12 months to be profitable, so it was usually converted to a different game (different theme, different payout schedule, etc.) and potentially moved to a different location in the venue (better lighting, closer to the bar, on the way to the toilets, etc.)

I don't think the industry metrics would have changed much since then, there's decades of data analysis and realistically not much competition, you're not going to drive across town to play the pokies if there's a local venue you can play instead.

There's a lot more detail I can go into on the statistics, return to player calculations, game conversion themes and the theories behind them. Given the overall mood here though it's probably best to not go into it right now.

Just on the payout rate, it kind of doesn’t matter what the rate is as the end result expected is that the person losses all their money. It gives them a longer pay period though. That might actually encourage putting more money into the machine although I have no evidence to support that contention.

 

[OnTheRocks]

Just on the payout rate, it kind of doesn’t matter what the rate is as the end result expected is that the person losses all their money. It gives them a longer pay period though. That might actually encourage putting more money into the machine although I have no evidence to support that contention.

Play them and find out