Discussion Coronavirus

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Verdun said:
All well and good, I believe being positive also and this includes planning in advance. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing this out, as has been pointed out we will go from crisis to crisis and not actually learn from them. ie put in a Royal Commission and not act on the recommendations.


Part of having knowledge and leadership includes having effective plans in place and including the relevant experts eg fire chiefs, scientists who are specialists in the fields of pandemics.

This government and others (US) have not included those who are experts in fields - they have sacked them.


People in charge need to have the knowledge to do this, just because you are elected does not make you a leader or expert. A leader actually includes experts.
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Agree but unsure how having many millions of test kits helps previously or now. Agree if we were running out of ICU beds but we aren't. Not even lose. And have thousands of kits doesn't seem to stop the virus being transmitted. And fine pointing things out but suggesting we could have had unlimited test kits so early is a bit of a stretch. Masks well that maybe a different story if we believe they actually help. Depends on who you read on that one.
 
plugger66 said:
Agree but unsure how having many millions of test kits helps previously or now. Agree if we were running out of ICU beds but we aren't. Not even lose. And have thousands of kits doesn't seem to stop the virus being transmitted. And fine pointing things out but suggesting we could have had unlimited test kits so early is a bit of a stretch. Masks well that maybe a different story if we believe they actually help. Depends on who you read on that one.
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Plugger - I ain't the expert either are you.

Where did I say this????:

'suggesting we could have had unlimited test kits so early is a bit of a stretch. '

The experts would have procedures in place to restrict the spread and would be able to identify issues such as test kits.

This is the point - the experts should not have been sacked they should be the ones consulted before this happened.

There was a pandemic plan in place which would have included this but it was disbanded.
 

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bergholt said:
Because let’s assume you did that perfectly. No one over 60 leaves the house so none of them get the virus. Everyone under 60 goes about their business normally. Within a few weeks there are a few hundred thousand cases and therefore a few thousand ICU beds are needed, which is all we have in the whole country.

So treatment capacity is full in a few weeks. But the cases keep coming, and then our death rate skyrockets. Tens of thousands of “non-vulnerable” people then die.

That cripples the country economically, and emotionally.

It’s not really an option, unfortunately, or a country somewhere in the world would be trying it successfully.
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But at the moment we're isolating everyone. I don't believe that Singapore & Japan have shut down to our extent. Sweden have done nothing at all.

My point is that we are making decisions based on flawed projections. Unfortunately, that's largely due to Chinese secrecy. I really don't think we're going to run out of ICU beds. It is the fear of not having enough ICU beds that has us in lockdown.
 
Verdun said:
Plugger - I ain't the expert either are you.

Where did I say this????:

'suggesting we could have had unlimited test kits so early is a bit of a stretch. '

The experts would have procedures in place to restrict the spread and would be able to identify issues such as test kits.

This is the point - the experts should not have been sacked they should be the ones consulted before this happened.

There was a pandemic plan in place which would have included this but it was disbanded.
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I didn't say you said it. My comments started after Gringo said it. All my posts were directed at that initial post. And im certainly no expert. That's why I keep asking questions. My point still stands. Im unsure whatever plan we had in place would have stopped the many cases or many deaths. Because our serious numbers are so low the patients are getting all the help they can get unlike some places in Europe where the numbers mean they have to just basically let some die.
 
Animal Cager said:
But at the moment we're isolating everyone. I don't believe that Singapore & Japan have shut down to our extent. Sweden have done nothing at all.

My point is that we are making decisions based on flawed projections. Unfortunately, that's largely due to Chinese secrecy. I really don't think we're going to run out of ICU beds. It is the fear of not having enough ICU beds that has us in lockdown.
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Singapore have just gone back into lockdown after a spike in cases and deaths
 
cartel said:
I don't think that we do have the ICU beds currently to cover this. The hospital I work at, like most others, is attempting to move lower risk patients into private sector bedstock - the lifeblood of which is elective surgery which has now been cancelled - and scrambling to create more critical care space. I hope that this enough.

Upskilling of staff in critical care is rapidly occurring, but make no mistake a crash course is not the equivalent of years of experience.

Overseas experience shows us that given how contagious the virus is, even if the proportion of 'non-vulnerable' people who get critically ill is low, the sheer numbers will contribute to overwhelming the system and creating more deaths. Prevention is the best cure. Prevention only comes from the vast majority of people doing the right thing and putting themselves and the rest of the community into the best position not to catch the virus.

I will be over the moon if I am wrong.

I too would love to be getting back to my usual work, and not be concerned about us being pushed to our brink when the system has already been underfunded for years.
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This is the reality, if we don't end this shutdown very soon, our health networks will not cope with what's coming. It won't be ICU beds, it will be the whole system, including mental health etc etc. All of the system will be hit by a virtual tsunami, again and again for years. Suicides alone will dwarf the death toll from the virus.

Our Health system, community services etc are not built to withstand an instant Depression that will be worse than the one of the 20th century. We're talking unemployment north of 20%, we're talking hyper-inflation, mass homelessness etc etc. That will have widespread health ramifications and our Health Networks will be overwhelmed to the point that they can barely do anything.

The government is already printing money. The stimulus package is massive and for only 6 months. They cannot just keep printing money.

I really think it is time to look forward at the consequences of all this, because they are a lot scarier than the current situation.
 
plugger66 said:
I didn't say you said it. My comments started after Gringo said it. All my posts were directed at that initial post. And im certainly no expert. That's why I keep asking questions. My point still stands. Im unsure whatever plan we had in place would have stopped the many cases or many deaths. Because our serious numbers are so low the patients are getting all the help they can get unlike some places in Europe where the numbers mean they have to just basically let some die.
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It is good to ask questions - your question below is very important:


plugger66 said:
Im unsure whatever plan we had in place would have stopped the many cases or many deaths.
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This Federal Plan ( https://www1.health.gov.au/internet...E2DDCCA257D47001B9948/$File/w-AHMPPI-2019.PDF)

This needed resourcing.
 
plugger66 said:
I didn't say you said it. My comments started after Gringo said it. All my posts were directed at that initial post. And im certainly no expert. That's why I keep asking questions. My point still stands. Im unsure whatever plan we had in place would have stopped the many cases or many deaths. Because our serious numbers are so low the patients are getting all the help they can get unlike some places in Europe where the numbers mean they have to just basically let some die.
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A pandemic plan is a living document which is reviewed at intervals and revised if there is a change in global guidance or evidence-base; lessons learned ..

This is what needs to happen ie above
 
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Some tips on Protecting yourself

This virus appears to be spread mainly by droplets produced when we sneeze, cough, talk etc.. There is some evidence that live virus can also be shed through the GI tract, meaning that children who have Covid 19 can spread it via soiled nappy but its unlikely that this will be a major source. Most is through droplets. These droplets land on surfaces and you touch these surfaces, then you transfer viruses to your face, in particular your eyes, usually by rubbing. You may have deposited the virus on your face some time ago, washed your hands, done something else then rubbed an itch, depositing the virus into your eyes. This is the usual portal of entry. Once there, the virus can infect you.

How to prevent this

- don't go out unless you have to
- wash your hands every time you touch a surface that potentially could have been contaminated.
- use moisturiser as cracked hands can also be a portal of entry.
- use gloves if you are dealing with hazardous surfaces then dispose of them and wash your hands,
- if you don't have access to running water to wash your hands, use gloves, or sanitiser, or if you can't get either maybe direct sunlight (UV) might be better than nothing but why are you exposing yourself and your family to risk if you haven't any sanitising options?

A face mask is not necessarily very protective. I use a face mask because it makes people think that a face mask might protect them (when in reality it is a better way of protecting others from you) so it encourages others to wear them. If everyone wore face masks, that would be a good measure. Face masks have the added benefit of social distancing. People see you with a mask on, they keep their distance just in case.

Gloves are not necessarily very protective. People wearing gloves still touch their face.

Clothes - when you've been out in public - wash your clothes when you return. Don't leave them for somebody else to wash. Wash your hands after placing the clothes in the washing machine and shower after going out.

Caution yourself when using lifts, stairwells, escalators, door handles, opening cupboards, drawers, handling money etc - remember to wash your hands.
 
Kildonan said:
Some tips on Protecting yourself

This virus appears to be spread mainly by droplets produced when we sneeze, cough, talk etc.. There is some evidence that live virus can also be shed through the GI tract, meaning that children who have Covid 19 can spread it via soiled nappy but its unlikely that this will be a major source. Most is through droplets. These droplets land on surfaces and you touch these surfaces, then you transfer viruses to your face, in particular your eyes, usually by rubbing. You may have deposited the virus on your face some time ago, washed your hands, done something else then rubbed an itch, depositing the virus into your eyes. This is the usual portal of entry. Once there, the virus can infect you.

How to prevent this

- don't go out unless you have to
- wash your hands every time you touch a surface that potentially could have been contaminated.
- use moisturiser as cracked hands can also be a portal of entry.
- use gloves if you are dealing with hazardous surfaces then dispose of them and wash your hands,
- if you don't have access to running water to wash your hands, use gloves, or sanitiser, or if you can't get either maybe direct sunlight (UV) might be better than nothing but why are you exposing yourself and your family to risk if you haven't any sanitising options?

A face mask is not necessarily very protective. I use a face mask because it makes people think that a face mask might protect them (when in reality it is a better way of protecting others from you) so it encourages others to wear them. If everyone wore face masks, that would be a good measure. Face masks have the added benefit of social distancing. People see you with a mask on, they keep their distance just in case.

Gloves are not necessarily very protective. People wearing gloves still touch their face.

Clothes - when you've been out in public - wash your clothes when you return. Don't leave them for somebody else to wash. Wash your hands after placing the clothes in the washing machine and shower after going out.

Caution yourself when using lifts, stairwells, escalators, door handles, opening cupboards, drawers, handling money etc - remember to wash your hands.
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Not sure about the effectiveness of gloves, but I find they are an effective reminder for me not to touch my face.
 
Joffaboy said:
Singapore have just gone back into lockdown after a spike in cases and deaths
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With a time frame of 1 month. After which they have clearly defined that they will lift the restrictions if they get an improvement. Such actions have a far more reduced impact on their economy. We on the other hand are getting nothing. We maintain a state of reactive panic.
 

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Hi guys , As i have told you i work for one of the big hotel chains , Here is just a small example of how tough it is for the hospitality industry , not that everyone isn't doing it tough
Same day last year we had over $70,000 in turnover , this year $2100
 
Animal Cager said:
With a time frame of 1 month. After which they have clearly defined that they will lift the restrictions if they get an improvement. Such actions have a far more reduced impact on their economy. We on the other hand are getting nothing. We maintain a state of reactive panic.
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So what do you suggest?
 
plugger66 said:
So what do you suggest?
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More than having faith in our leaders.

A pandemic plan that is resourced and is a living document reviewed at intervals and revised if there is a change in global guidance or evidence-base; with lessons learned. This involves listening to experts who would be doing the reviewing and acting on the lessons learned.
 
Animal Cager said:
But at the moment we're isolating everyone. I don't believe that Singapore & Japan have shut down to our extent. Sweden have done nothing at all.

My point is that we are making decisions based on flawed projections. Unfortunately, that's largely due to Chinese secrecy. I really don't think we're going to run out of ICU beds. It is the fear of not having enough ICU beds that has us in lockdown.
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As you say projections may well be flawed due to lack of transparency from China, although we’re getting a pretty good look at it from UK and Europe.

I don’t know about others but personally I’d rather feel stupid from an overreaction than regretful from an underreaction.
 
Diehard Saint said:
As you say projections may well be flawed due to lack of transparency from China, although we’re getting a pretty good look at it from UK and Europe and

I don’t know about others but personally I’d rather feel stupid from an overreaction than regretful from an underreaction.
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Before a pandemic all measure seem draconian, after a pandemic they all seem inadequate.
 
Verdun said:
More than having faith in our leaders.

A pandemic plan that is resourced and is a living document reviewed at intervals and revised if there is a change in global guidance or evidence-base; with lessons learned. This involves listening to experts who would be doing the reviewing and acting on the lessons learned.
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Yep I’m sure they all are.
 
Verdun said:
I don't!!!

They sacked all the experts - it is what they do.

Your faith is misplaced, as is your continual denial.
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That’s your opinion obviously. If everything was as bad as you say I’m doubting there would only be 30 deaths. Of course it’s not political Just out of interest what are they doing wrong?
 
Animal Cager said:
With a time frame of 1 month. After which they have clearly defined that they will lift the restrictions if they get an improvement. Such actions have a far more reduced impact on their economy. We on the other hand are getting nothing. We maintain a state of reactive panic.
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Prefer to go with the experts than some uninformed opinion thanks.
 
plugger66 said:
That’s your opinion obviously. If everything was as bad as you say I’m doubting there would only be 30 deaths. Of course it’s not political Just out of interest what are they doing wrong?
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When this started Trump and Fox news said it was not as bad as the influenza and had screen shots of '0 deaths caused by the Virus' your statement re there being only 30 deaths is very similar ie a world full of denial.

When did I say that? that everything is bad?? My point is that there should have been more planning, the experts should have been involved (not cut) and they should be held account.

It is also not my opinion but facts that this have but has not occured:

  • Support a single, multidisciplinary, nationally focused team who will establish a collaborative network to undertake infectious disease emergency response research in the Australian health system
  • Lead a cohesive approach to priority setting for infectious disease emergency response research Conduct research in accordance with these priorities
  • Resource planning and trials

You saying you have faith in the current government is itself political do not be hypocritical.
 
Verdun said:
When this started Trump and Fox news said it was not as bad as the influenza and had screen shots of '0 deaths caused by the Virus' your statement re there being only 30 deaths is very similar ie a world full of denial.

When did I say that? that everything is bad?? My point is that there should have been more planning, the experts should have been involved (not cut) and they should be held account.

It is also not my opinion but facts that this have but has not occured:

  • Support a single, multidisciplinary, nationally focused team who will establish a collaborative network to undertake infectious disease emergency response research in the Australian health system
  • Lead a cohesive approach to priority setting for infectious disease emergency response research Conduct research in accordance with these priorities
  • Resource planning and trials

You saying you have faith in the current government is itself political do not be hypocritical.
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I have faith in Andrews as well. If it was albo doing exactly this I would have faith in him. I don’t care about anything to do with trump as any example. The guy is a maniac. I still have no idea what you think they are doing wrong. It may end up a disaster but I can only go on the current and when compared to most other countries I think we are doing very well.
 
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