No Oppo Supporters Essendon* - 6900 & Beyond - Carlton Posters ONLY!

[Gethelred]

Did Richmond win early games looking like premiership favorites after round six, then drop like a dead deer and miss / scrape into the eight, not going into the second week of the finals for ten years. If your answer is yes

Then I can see the comparison

They only scraped in for the 2014 series. In 2013 they were half a game out of the top 4. And only 1 game out of the 4 in 2015.

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So the answer is NO comparison
That's heartwarming

Y'all are making me do something I don't want to do.

Richmond made finals in 2013, 2014 and 2015. We all know how 2013 went; they came 5th off the back of an easy draw, and were expected to roll us easy and didn't. We knew we could get them, too; we had a mental edge, having kept doing more or less what we did that day to them multiple times in previous games against them. In 2014, Richmond had won 3 games to round 14, before winning all of their remaining matches to make 8th position; they then lost to Port Adelaide by 57 points, in which Port kicked the first 7 goals of the match, and were 81 points in front at one point before relaxing to a ten goal victory. In 2015, Richmond were beaten by North, again after having made 5th position off the back of an easier draw and Nth having had a much more difficult one accounted for them rather handily.

Last year, Essendon snuck into finals in 8th spot, with a percentage of 95.4; they were belted by the Eagles at home to the tune of 55 points. In 2018, they missed out on finals with a 12-10 record and a % of 105; in 2017, they made the finals with almost the exact same statistical breakdown, but came 7th. But here, they were belted by Sydney at home by 65 points.

Essendon's losses are comparable to Richmond's loss to Port; two away heavy losses inflicted by sides higher on the ladder than they were. There's also the fact that Richmond twice made 5th position (and I stand by my statement that in both years they lucked into an easier draw than they deserved; in 2013, they got us, St Kilda who finished 16th, Essendon who got kicked out of the lower half of the eight, and Footscray who came 15th as doublups, as well as key matchups at home. I'd make the same breakdown for 2015, but I think you get my point) and that Essendon do not have continuity of coaching as key differences between the two teams to take solace from.

But, insofar as the two can be compared (Essendon's two interstate finals to Richmond's one) the comparison holds water.

 

[hoddo22]

Y'all are making me do something I don't want to do.

Richmond made finals in 2013, 2014 and 2015. We all know how 2013 went; they came 5th off the back of an easy draw, and were expected to roll us easy and didn't. We knew we could get them, too; we had a mental edge, having kept doing more or less what we did that day to them multiple times in previous games against them. In 2014, Richmond had won 3 games to round 14, before winning all of their remaining matches to make 8th position; they then lost to Port Adelaide by 57 points, in which Port kicked the first 7 goals of the match, and were 81 points in front at one point before relaxing to a ten goal victory. In 2015, Richmond were beaten by North, again after having made 5th position off the back of an easier draw and Nth having had a much more difficult one accounted for them rather handily.

Last year, Essendon snuck into finals in 8th spot, with a percentage of 95.4; they were belted by the Eagles at home to the tune of 55 points. In 2018, they missed out on finals with a 12-10 record and a % of 105; in 2017, they made the finals with almost the exact same statistical breakdown, but came 7th. But here, they were belted by Sydney at home by 65 points.

Essendon's losses are comparable to Richmond's loss to Port; two away heavy losses inflicted by sides higher on the ladder than they were. There's also the fact that Richmond twice made 5th position (and I stand by my statement that in both years they lucked into an easier draw than they deserved; in 2013, they got us, St Kilda who finished 16th, Essendon who got kicked out of the lower half of the eight, and Footscray who came 15th, as well as key matchups at home. I'd make the same breakdown for 2015, but I think you get my point) and that Essendon do not have continuity of coaching as key differences between the two teams to take solace from.

But, insofar as the two can be compared (Essendon's two interstate finals to Richmond's one) the comparison holds water.

I see what you're trying to say, and I partly agree with some of those points.

But... last year * barely scraped in a week after giving up 21 straight goals to the Dogs the week before. 2017 they scraped in yet again and struggled to even get over us late in the season.

Richmond had Rance, Reiwoldt, Cotchin and a ready to dominate Martin. * have nothing of the sort. The only similarity is they both wear a sash. But even theirs runs the wrong direction.

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[Gethelred]

I see what you're trying to say, and I partly agree with some of those points.

But... last year * barely scraped in a week after giving up 21 straight goals to the Dogs the week before. 2017 they scraped in yet again and struggled to even get over us late in the season.

Richmond had Rance, Reiwoldt, Cotchin and a ready to dominate Martin. * have nothing of the sort. The only similarity is they both wear a sash. But even theirs runs the wrong direction.

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The only player Essendon do not have that compares to Richmond in 2016 is Dustin Martin. Aside from that, they have Hurley (although if the mooted disharmony is true, they might not for very long) Shiel, Daniher; while the comparisons are not clean, they certainly afford an apples to apples evaluation.

As I said several posts ago, this will only work if they retain all the players they currently have now. If they lose any of these required players, they're ****ed just as Richmond would've been in 2017 if they'd lost Riewoldt, Edwards, Houli.

 

[ajb72]

You are trying to argue that any s**t team might get lucky, if the universe aligns, and things go there way.

The big difference is that Richmond's game plan was based upon simple things. Effort & pressure. Basically internal things they could control.
EFC's game plan is based upon precision, perfect football. There are too many external variables which they don't control.

 

[Bostonian]

My mail is that during an intra club match there was some uncalled for trash taking of team mates by a few bombers players.

This didn't go down well with various other players and has lead to some of the unrest being reported.

Chief *******s seems to have been Shiel and Fantasia.

So we dodged a bullet with figjam Shiel.

 

[Gethelred]

You are trying to argue that any sh*t team might get lucky, if the universe aligns, and things go there way.

No, I'm really not, and I'm quite clearly not.

Why on this website do people near constantly make attempts to reframe a post they disagree with into something it isn't? Is intellectual honesty so incredibly difficult?

The big difference is that Richmond's game plan was based upon simple things. Effort & pressure. Basically internal things they could control.
EFC's game plan is based upon precision, perfect football. There are too many external variables which they don't control.

The big differences are, in no particular order: Dustin Martin, the lack of continuity in coaching, and the drugs saga and how it affected their present.

Richmond's gameplan WAS NOT the same in 2016 as it is in 2017 to today. I am looking quite clearly at similarities between the histories of the two situations, and drawing conclusions based on the fact that literally no-one saw Richmond coming. No-one saw the game they play now as being sustainable, because no-one had been able to sustain it prior to them; throughout 2017, no-one really thought them a chance based on their lack of winning experience in finals and because they just seemed to keep winning without possessing amazing players outside of Dusty. People looked for traditional reasons to explain it, and found them wanting.

Now, I could be wrong; I've said it at every step of this particular conversation. What I'm unwilling to wear is the idea that the similarities I've observed are not there, because they are.

 

[Love the Drake]

Apologies Gethelred but I just don’t see it.

*dons best four players and captain are nowhere near the quality of Richmonds.

*dons game plan is unproven and nothing like Richmonds.

*don need a total rebuild - Hurley, hooker, Heppel way past their best. Overpaid (in draft picks and salary) for Smith, Stringer & Shiel who have all underperformed and are at best, B grade players. Have not seen the best of Daniher, Zaharakis & Fantasia for three years. Saad moving on. McKenna gone.

*Hardwick was in his sixth year; Rutten will be in his first.

They are in a world of hurt...and there couldn’t be a more deserving club.

 

[Aphrodite]

Who cares about Richmond.


This thread is about *

 

[Gethelred]

Apologies Gethelred but I just don’t see it.

And that's fine.

*dons best four players and captain are nowhere near the quality of Richmonds.

Richmond's 4 best players weren't anywhere near the quality they are/were in 2017.

Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt and Rance all had shown what they could do, but they approached a level of consistency and a level of ability that had not been displayed from them previously.

*dons game plan is unproven and nothing like Richmonds.

This is more or less the bulk of my argument, going even beyond list comparisons.

Richmond didn't have their late year 2017 gameplan in 2016; they didn't even have it in early. They developed it over the first 5-10 rounds of 2017, and it evolved organically into what it is now. Caracella is considered to be a partial mastermind of this transformation, and he is at Essendon now.

*don need a total rebuild - Hurley, hooker, Heppel way past their best. Overpaid (in draft picks and salary) for Smith, Stringer & Shiel who have all underperformed and are at best, B grade players. Have not seen the best of Daniher, Zaharakis & Fantasia for three years. Saad moving on. McKenna gone.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

This is but a single article from 2016. People thought they were in real trouble; they hadn't any real prospective improvement within their list. I couldn't find any - the world was very different in 2005-06 - but there were similar perspectives on Geelong post 2004.

People jump to conclusions based on team sport at the drop of a hat, and very frequently they're wrong. I could be wrong here, but the comparison between 2016 Richmond and 2020 Essendon is noteworthy, if only because it could be foreboding and/or because it shows how lucky Richmond were in retrospect that they held it together.

*Hardwick was in his sixth year; Rutten will be in his first.

They are in a world of hurt...and there couldn’t be a more deserving club.

Yep. That's one of the only differences there are; the lack of coaching continuity.

We'll see.

Who cares about Richmond.


This thread is about *

I think that's a little unfair, o almighty Goddess. I'm talking about Richmond in reference to Essendon.

If this is not a thread for both bagging the s**t out of Essendon and for reasonable discussion of them and their prospects (which includes discussion in reference to the rest of the AFL) then I'd agree my posts are in the wrong place.

 

[blueblooded]

And that's fine.


Richmond's 4 best players weren't anywhere near the quality they are/were in 2017.

Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt and Rance all had shown what they could do, but they approached a level of consistency and a level of ability that had not been displayed from them previously.

This is more or less the bulk of my argument, going even beyond list comparisons.

Richmond didn't have their late year 2017 gameplan in 2016; they didn't even have it in early. They developed it over the first 5-10 rounds of 2017, and it evolved organically into what it is now. Caracella is considered to be a partial mastermind of this transformation, and he is at Essendon now.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

This is but a single article from 2016. People thought they were in real trouble; they hadn't any real prospective improvement within their list. I couldn't find any - the world was very different in 2005-06 - but there were similar perspectives on Geelong post 2004.

People jump to conclusions based on team sport at the drop of a hat, and very frequently they're wrong. I could be wrong here, but the comparison between 2016 Richmond and 2020 Essendon is noteworthy, if only because it could be foreboding and/or because it shows how lucky Richmond were in retrospect that they held it together.

Yep. That's one of the only differences there are; the lack of coaching continuity.

We'll see.


I think that's a little unfair, o almighty Goddess. I'm talking about Richmond in reference to Essendon.

If this is not a thread for both bagging the sh*t out of Essendon and for reasonable discussion of them and their prospects (which includes discussion in reference to the rest of the AFL) then I'd agree my posts are in the wrong place.

with all due respect this Essendon team is completely different. Take Dustin Martin out of Richmond and they win nothing. He's that influential he's won two norm smith medals and a Brownlow in a premiership year. He is the difference between winning and losing. If Daniher leaves Essendon, along with Saad and McKenna this off season they are in a world of pain and need to rebuild completely. If Hurley and Hooker leave as well that leaves them vulnerable in the key posts like you would not believe. They have nowhere near the quality of players Richmond had in 17. Dusty not included they had Rance in his prime, Cotchin in his prime, Riewoldt in his prime. Edwards, Houli, Caddy, Prestia...need I go on.


Essendon have Stringer, Smith, Shiel, Merret (if he stays) McGrath and not much else really. Every team has players like these. Superstar bookends win you Premierships and players like Dustin Martin and Essendon have none and they know it.

 

[Gavstar]

Doubts over veteran duo's Essendon futures

Senior players left angered over one decision

wwos.nine.com.au

If you believe this, The Dodo may indeed become extinct at Essingtin

Dodo? I think this does the most damage to Rutten.

I think given all * have put players through with thier performance enhancing drugs scandal the least they could do was give a player who was affected (lost a year of their career, being stressed about the side effects of being injected with mexican go juice etc) was a farewell game. I think Hurley and Hooker know that this means they too will be waved toodle pip without a second thought by the current coach despite any perceived sacrifices they think they made for the club.

 

[Gethelred]

with all due respect this Essendon team is completely different. Take Dustin Martin out of Richmond and they win nothing. He's that influential he's won two norm smith medals and a Brownlow in a premiership year. He is the difference between winning and losing. If Daniher leaves Essendon, along with Saad and McKenna this off season they are in a world of pain and need to rebuild completely. If Hurley and Hooker leave as well that leaves them vulnerable in the key posts like you would not believe. They have nowhere near the quality of players Richmond had in 17. Dusty not included they had Rance in his prime, Cotchin in his prime, Riewoldt in his prime. Edwards, Houli, Caddy, Prestia...need I go on.

You are not reading the posts you're responding to.

I've said - multiple times now - that one of the indicators for whether or not this turns around - as it did for Richmond - is whether they retain all those who are supposed to be leaving, and whether they add to their current side instead of merely getting players in for the ones lost. If they lose Hurley and Daniher, they're ****ed; if they lose Merrett and Saad, they're ****ed. They need to add players, because their current side is thin in several ways, like Richmond in 2016. Caddy, Prestia, Lambert, Nankervis, Townsend; all obtained between 2016 and 2017, all players who became fixtures in their side and premiership players.

Secondly, I've said that that the players Richmond has in their team who are exceptional - the players you cite, including Dustin Martin - were not as good in the years prior to 2016. Riewoldt had won a coleman medal but was selfish in the extreme; Martin had put himself on the market in 2015 and found there to be zero takers; no-one had Edward in the top echelon, and Houli was seen as the flakey, loose outside running defender he was. Only Rance can be considered to be a player who was as well regarded by the media, and he was (and remains to be) overrated, compensated for by their team defence upfield and Vlastuin, Astbury and Grimes. I agree that they do not have someone there who seems to be able to do a Dustin Martin, but while people knew he had the talent no-one saw him coming. The question becomes, do they have talented players who could be dominant in a midfield context? Yep; Parish, Merrett, McGrath, Shiel.

There's a separate conversation to be had about Richmond's use of tackling pressure to deliberately exhaust teams in third terms while they give their best players - Cotchin, Prestia, Edward, and definitively Martin - a rest, but as I've already been alerted to this is not a thread about Richmond. Suffice to say, Richmond's gameplan is built to maximize both their list strengths and their quality; Martin is already strong, but against an exhausted opposition he's like shoving a reps midfielder into an U14's park game.

If Essendon find a gameplan that does the same - and I'm not saying they will, merely that they might - things could click for them in a like fashion.

Essendon have Stringer, Smith, Shiel, Merret (if he stays) McGrath and not much else really. Every team has players like these. Superstar bookends win you Premierships and players like Dustin Martin and Essendon have none and they know it.

I've given a list of their young players in this thread who I think could be good average players. All players look better in a good team, and all players look better in a gameplan that plays to their strengths instead of their weaknesses. They have already got a significant amount of 'cream' players, but they need a gameplan to get it all to work together, and they need to add to the list instead of losing players.

Look. I'd have less of an issue about your post if you'd bothered to read the posts leading into it, because I've more or less addressed each and everything you've said in here before.

 

[ajb72]

You are not reading the posts you're responding to.

I've said - multiple times now - that one of the indicators for whether or not this turns around - as it did for Richmond - is whether they retain all those who are supposed to be leaving, and whether they add to their current side instead of merely getting players in for the ones lost. If they lose Hurley and Daniher, they're f’ed; if they lose Merrett and Saad, they're f’ed. They need to add players, because their current side is thin in several ways, like Richmond in 2016. Caddy, Prestia, Lambert, Nankervis, Townsend; all obtained between 2016 and 2017, all players who became fixtures in their side and premiership players.

Secondly, I've said that that the players Richmond has in their team who are exceptional - the players you cite, including Dustin Martin - were not as good in the years prior to 2016. Riewoldt had won a coleman medal but was selfish in the extreme; Martin had put himself on the market in 2015 and found there to be zero takers; no-one had Edward in the top echelon, and Houli was seen as the flakey, loose outside running defender he was. Only Rance can be considered to be a player who was as well regarded by the media, and he was (and remains to be) overrated, compensated for by their team defence upfield and Vlastuin, Astbury and Grimes. I agree that they do not have someone there who seems to be able to do a Dustin Martin, but while people knew he had the talent no-one saw him coming. The question becomes, do they have talented players who could be dominant in a midfield context? Yep; Parish, Merrett, McGrath, Shiel.

There's a separate conversation to be had about Richmond's use of tackling pressure to deliberately exhaust teams in third terms while they give their best players - Cotchin, Prestia, Edward, and definitively Martin - a rest, but as I've already been alerted to this is not a thread about Richmond. Suffice to say, Richmond's gameplan is built to maximize both their list strengths and their quality; Martin is already strong, but against an exhausted opposition he's like shoving a reps midfielder into an U14's park game.

If Essendon find a gameplan that does the same - and I'm not saying they will, merely that they might - things could click for them in a like fashion.

I've given a list of their young players in this thread who I think could be good average players. All players look better in a good team, and all players look better in a gameplan that plays to their strengths instead of their weaknesses. They have already got a significant amount of 'cream' players, but they need a gameplan to get it all to work together, and they need to add to the list instead of losing players.

Look. I'd have less of an issue about your post if you'd bothered to read the posts leading into it, because I've more or less addressed each and everything you've said in here before.

I'd have less issue with your post if you didn't disregard everything that everyone else says are differences, but hold to the 1 similarity as a precursor for future results.

The facts are EFC 2020 are not RFC 2017.

Even if their results and ladder position were similar, it has zero baring on what will happen in 2021.

And more to the point, even if someone provided you hard evidence of a distinct difference, there is no way to know, without a time machine, on who is right.
Hence, keep disregarding everyone else and keep theorising that EFC are the next big thing, because noone will be able to prove you wrong for a good 9 months and even then, feel free to push your theory back 12 months. Hopefully, you can maintain the rage for a few decades, because that will just prove that efc are s**t for a long time yet.

 

[Gethelred]

I'd have less issue with your post if you didn't disregard everything that everyone else says are differences, but hold to the 1 similarity as a precursor for future results.

The facts are EFC 2020 are not RFC 2017.

Even if their results and ladder position were similar, it has zero baring on what will happen in 2021.

And more to the point, even if someone provided you hard evidence of a distinct difference, there is no way to know, without a time machine, on who is right.
Hence, keep disregarding everyone else and keep theorising that EFC are the next big thing, because noone will be able to prove you wrong for a good 9 months and even then, feel free to push your theory back 12 months. Hopefully, you can maintain the rage for a few decades, because that will just prove that efc are sh*t for a long time yet.

Uh, duh Essendon 2020 = / = RFC 2016. Because that's not what I'm saying. Why precisely do you feel the need to put words in my posts that aren't there? Both of your posts are engaging in some next level reading between the lines. And the problem I have with your posts is that I don't have a single point, I have a group of them, which demonstrates how you either haven't read the posts you're complaining about or you are choosing to ignore them.

And my point will be proven or not next year, because - unlike how you've misrepresented me - my point solely concerns the resemblance between 2016 Richmond and 2020 Essendon. If they fail to come on next year, if they lose players and fail to take that next step I'm talking about, I will be actively proven wrong, and I'm okay with that because - and I'm astonished I have to say this - this is something I think, not something I believe or have any real stake in.

You got any other strawman versions of my arguments you want to throw my way, or you sick of arguing past me yet?

 

[Aphrodite]

5,861

 

[Electric Blue]

This is a club that proudly goes against the 'No Dickheads' policy.

* are more like, please give us your dickheads.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

There's more Knobs there than there is on Van Halen's Mixing desk

 

[Dramoth]

My mail is that during an intra club match there was some uncalled for trash taking of team mates by a few bombers players.

This didn't go down well with various other players and has lead to some of the unrest being reported.

Chief *******s seems to have been Shiel and Fantasia.

So we dodged a bullet with figjam Shiel.

I'd be happy to bring back Setanta if we had Shiel trash talking his fellow players. Setanta could give him the Cloke treatment and bury his foot right up his clacker!

 

[Dramoth]

5,861

You might as well add in another 11 months to that. Because they aren't going to be winning finals for at least that long. If ever!

 

[Gethelred]

You might as well add in another 11 months to that. Because they aren't going to be winning finals for at least that long. If ever!

I kind of like the slow countdown. It's good to do them slowly, really savour it.

 

[mikeythemoocow]

I’m hoping lockdown is over so I can celebrate on Feb 6th, 6000 day

 

[Dramoth]

I’m hoping lockdown is over so I can celebrate on Feb 6th, 6000 day

That'd be worth a pint or 10

 

[gandaal]

Has their ever been a senior AFL coach who got sacked before his first official game in charge?

 

[Dramoth]

Has their ever been a senior AFL coach who got sacked before his first official game in charge?

I thought his first day was today? The handover was yesterday I think?

EDIT: Official game... for some reason, I thought it said day

 

[RPCB]

I'd be happy to bring back Setanta if we had Shiel trash talking his fellow players. Setanta could give him the Cloke treatment and bury his foot right up his clacker!

Hahaha.... clacker.