Research Mystery of George Simmonds - early indigenous player (Melbourne/Richmond Seconds?)

[Supermercado]

On George Johnstone, found another article that specifically spells the player from Coranderrk as "Johnstone" rather than Johnson. That's enough for me, I'm not making a call on him being indigenous or not (and I doubt it because surely in 1897 there's be a bigger focus in articles) but I'm taking him off the 'where are they from' list. Hoping to study permit records soon and see if there's two Johnson/Johnstones at the club that year.

 

[35Daicos]

On George Johnstone, found another article that specifically spells the player from Coranderrk as "Johnstone" rather than Johnson. That's enough for me, I'm not making a call on him being indigenous or not (and I doubt it because surely in 1897 there's be a bigger focus in articles) but I'm taking him off the 'where are they from' list. Hoping to study permit records soon and see if there's two Johnson/Johnstones at the club that year.

I'm still mystified with this one! Perhaps the answer is indeed that there were two people at Melbourne with that (same/similar) name in 1897. G. Johnston went from Melbourne to Port Melbourne in May 1898:-

Obviously, the AFL records say that the George Johnstone who played for Melbourne in 1897 played again in 1898. Port Melbourne has George Johnson debuting for them in 1898 and playing a total of 34 games:

As pointed out in this post on the previous page, an August 1898 newspaper article said "Port Melbourne have secured a player with a big reputation as a 'baller from Corranderrk". Was this referring to the recruit from Melbourne (who should have been at the club since late May)? There has to be an answer to this out there somewhere; it's about time it turned up!!

 

[35Daicos]

On George Johnstone, found another article that specifically spells the player from Coranderrk as "Johnstone" rather than Johnson. That's enough for me, I'm not making a call on him being indigenous or not (and I doubt it because surely in 1897 there's be a bigger focus in articles) but I'm taking him off the 'where are they from' list. Hoping to study permit records soon and see if there's two Johnson/Johnstones at the club that year.

From Ancestry:






As long as the AFL have the right person in their records (and this information on Ancestry is correct) then the 1897-98 Melbourne player wasn't indigenous.

 

[35Daicos]

This one continues to bug me! This is the person the AFL records have playing for Melbourne in 1924:


On Ancestry:


That's clearly not the George Simmonds (pictured below in 1933) who played for Northcote. The Melbourne player is considered to be the third indigenous person to have played in the VFL/AFL.


I suspect that in George Leslie Simmonds (1895-1973) the AFL have the right person but have his ethnicity wrong. They must be going mostly on the appearance of the Northcote player, believing he was the Melbourne player from 1924.

I think there has to have been two George Simmonds playing around that time. The Kerang man seems to have spent most of his life living in that town:

George Matherson Greyville Simmonds is much more likely to be the Northcote/Richmond Seconds player:

The Northcote player was still playing in 1936 - George Leslie Simmonds was 41 that year (Edit: still at Northcote in 1938, so meant to be 43!), while the above chap was a more realistic 30 when that season was played. Also, he was living at Richmond and Northcote around the time he played for those clubs:




TBC>!

 

[35Daicos]

Simmonds saga!:
We can see here Simmonds was playing for Richmond Seconds at about the same time as the ex-Melbourne player was looking for a club elsewhere:

A MURTOA FORWARD - Geo. Simmons' Career - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 28 Sep 1929

There are many positions which call upon a player to exercise judgment, but one of the most responsible is that of full forward. Wimmera ...

trove.nla.gov.au

There's never any mention that he once played with Melbourne. There's virtually no chance that the Melbourne player is the same player who was with Richmond Seconds, Murtoa and Northcote, just a fair coincidence that two forwards named George Simmonds happened to be around at the same time!

 

[rbartlett]

So your suggesting the Simmonds for Richmond Seconds then went to Murtoa, then to Northcote. (with no connection to Melbourne FC)
And that he is George Materson "Nugget" Simmonds, possibly Indigenous, and that he is the guy in the photo wearing the Northcote guernsey? Is that right

 

[35Daicos]

So your suggesting the Simmonds for Richmond Seconds then went to Murtoa, then to Northcote. (with no connection to Melbourne FC)
And that he is George Materson "Nugget" Simmonds, possibly Indigenous, and that he is the guy in the photo wearing the Northcote guernsey? Is that right

Yes, pretty much. I think it simply has to be right that they're two different people.

He's in this 1933 Northcote team photo: http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Northcote+Senior+Team+1933+(SLV+122_059)

 

[35Daicos]

So your suggesting the Simmonds for Richmond Seconds then went to Murtoa, then to Northcote. (with no connection to Melbourne FC)
And that he is George Materson "Nugget" Simmonds, possibly Indigenous, and that he is the guy in the photo wearing the Northcote guernsey? Is that right

This is probably him trying out at Richmond in 1924:

Assuming it is him (Richmond Seconds 1925-27 player), I think this is rather significant. The Richmond player was a local lad, the Melbourne chap came down from Kerang later that year (1924).

 

[Bandit55]

George L Simmonds was living in Kerang in 1916, he applied for an exemption from military duties for family reasons:

MILITARY EXEMPTION COURT. - Kerang New Times (Vic. : 1901 - 1918) - 7 Nov 1916

Applications for exemptions from military service of single men between the ages of 21 and 35[?]years were dealt with at the Court House, Kerang, on Friday and ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Hawthorn's Roy Simmonds was from Koondrook:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/h...ad703fc43?sv=d51636b3412df24cca68ac20e2df5f56

is it possible that George L and Roy were related?

 

[35Daicos]

George L Simmonds was living in Kerang in 1916, he applied for an exemption from military duties for family reasons:

MILITARY EXEMPTION COURT. - Kerang New Times (Vic. : 1901 - 1918) - 7 Nov 1916

Applications for exemptions from military service of single men between the ages of 21 and 35[?]years were dealt with at the Court House, Kerang, on Friday and ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Hawthorn's Roy Simmonds was from Koondrook:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/h...ad703fc43?sv=d51636b3412df24cca68ac20e2df5f56

is it possible that George L and Roy were related?

It's certainly possible. Roy Simmonds was born in 1928, while George Leslie Simmonds was married in 1930, so very unlikely to be father and son. According to Ancestry Murray George was the only child of George Leslie. Roy's father was Percival William.

What do you know!:


Percival William Simmonds was George Leslie's brother. Brilliant!

This is Roy's father:

Fatal Accident at Railway Station. - THE INQUEST. - Kerang New Times (Vic. : 1901 - 1918) - 12 May 1916

The circumstances which led to the death of Private George White were the subject of an inquest before Mr F. J. Taverner. J.P., deputy coroner. The ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[35Daicos]

George L Simmonds was living in Kerang in 1916, he applied for an exemption from military duties for family reasons:

MILITARY EXEMPTION COURT. - Kerang New Times (Vic. : 1901 - 1918) - 7 Nov 1916

Applications for exemptions from military service of single men between the ages of 21 and 35[?]years were dealt with at the Court House, Kerang, on Friday and ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Hawthorn's Roy Simmonds was from Koondrook:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/h...ad703fc43?sv=d51636b3412df24cca68ac20e2df5f56

is it possible that George L and Roy were related?

Please refresh the page, and check my edited post! Great stuff!

 

[Bandit55]

Please refresh the page, and check my edited post! Great stuff!

Well done! The puzzle is being narrowed down. I read that Roy had played practice matches for Melbourne, but they didn't put him on the list.

 

[35Daicos]

Well done! The puzzle is being narrowed down. I read that Roy had played practice matches for Melbourne, but they didn't put him on the list.

I wonder if he went there first because his uncle had played for Melbourne all those years ago?

Demonwiki | Roy Simmonds

Demonwiki

demonwiki.org

 

[35Daicos]

I did send an email regarding the Simmonds' story to the AFL chaps on Friday night, and have now heard from Col H. This is the key bit from his response:
Thanks for clarifying the Simmonds situation.

I will adjust the AFL records accordingly.
================================
So that will mean Melbourne 1924 player George Leslie Simmonds is no longer on the AFL's list of all-time indigenous players, as they now accept that the Melbourne player was a different person to the Richmond Seconds/Murtoa/Northcote player.

 

[rbartlett]

Just to close this off - do we have a DOB and DOD for George Materson Simmonds (the Richmond/Murtoa/Northcote) player, I couldn't see it in the thread.

 

[the croucher]

Just to close this off - do we have a DOB and DOD for George Materson Simmonds (the Richmond/Murtoa/Northcote) player, I couldn't see it in the thread.

Rhett, via a number of Ancestry trees, Vic BDMs and Vic probate records we have 27 Nov 1905 as DOB and 13 Nov 1972 as DOD.

 

[rbartlett]

Just to reopen this thread.
My funding of Richmond Guardian 1925-1930 is complete, and they are starting to put 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928 RG issues up - where Simmonds/Simmons appears.

 

[Gibbsy]

I did send an email regarding the Simmonds' story to the AFL chaps on Friday night, and have now heard from Col H. This is the key bit from his response:
Thanks for clarifying the Simmonds situation.

I will adjust the AFL records accordingly.
================================
So that will mean Melbourne 1924 player George Leslie Simmonds is no longer on the AFL's list of all-time indigenous players, as they now accept that the Melbourne player was a different person to the Richmond Seconds/Murtoa/Northcote player.

It looks like these changes to the 'original' George Simmonds were never synthesised on WP or AF. I've made them now.

 

[Gibbsy]

View attachment 1015073
From Ancestry:
View attachment 1015074
View attachment 1015075
View attachment 1015077
View attachment 1015076
View attachment 1015078
View attachment 1015080
As long as the AFL have the right person in their records (and this information on Ancestry is correct) then the 1897-98 Melbourne player wasn't indigenous.

Re: the other subject of this thread, George Johnston(e), the spelling of his surname differed from his birth to his death, hence the confusion. Ceres and Gnarwarre are only 10km apart for what it's worth; the death notice also seems to have his age out by one year.





I would lean towards listing him as Johnston in official records given his name at death and also the Ancestry tree listed above (which has photos, indicating a close link to relatives).

Not a change for me to make of my own volition though – what do you guys think? CC: Supermercado Oliver G (for your records)

 

[rbartlett]

This is probably already known, but Simmonds when back to Murtoa after Richmond, as per his permit in the Sun Pictorial