Rules Stealth Rule Change?

[OldBlueFan]

I tried starting a thread about this on the Carlton board, but the mods seemed to think it wasn't worthy of discussion and just buried my post in the graveyard Umpires thread. Maybe here it will get more traction ...

During On the Couch on Monday, I saw this:


To me, that is as blatant a throw as we're likely to see in our game, but it's just been called play on, and the saints get a goal as a result.

Now sure, the player makes contact with the ball using his left fist, but ALL of the ball's momentum and direction is dictated by the right hand. It hasn't been punched in the direction that it tarvels at all.

The thing that stood out for me is that this passage of play was actually being highlighted not for the throw, but for the running effort of the player who ended up throwing the ball to Hill. They said absolutely nothing about this blatant and extreme throw. So I'm guessing that it is an AFL directive and everyone's on board with it.

So my question is, has the handball or legal disposal rule been changed, or is this just one that got away? If I remember correctly, the original rule defining a handpass is that "the ball must be punched from the holding hand by a fist from the non-holding hand", not that "the ball can be blatantly thrown by the holding hand hand with incidental contact by a fist from the non-holding hand".

So, has there been a rule/interpretation change that they haven't widely publicised?

 

[Scroater]

In the front on vision of that clip, the Umpire, and I believe it was Number 16, clearly motioning that Gresham got a handball. There doesn't seem to be any interference to his vision.

Later in the same match, that same umpire paid a free kick against Richmond for a throw when that player clearly punched the ball from his open hand with his fist.

I would suggest that the umpire got caught up in the moment on both occasions.

Saints were coming hard when he missed the throw. Saints were piling it on when he missed the handball.

 

[OldBlueFan]

In the front on vision of that clip, the Umpire, and I believe it was Number 16, clearly motioning that Gresham got a handball. There doesn't seem to be any interference to his vision.

This is exactly my point. If all you need to do now is make some/any contact with a fist from the non-holding hand, then throws like this will become the standard. Why would you do anything else as a player? A throw is more accurate, it goes further, it's easier to execute etc etc ...

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

This is exactly my point. If all you need to do now is make some/any contact with a fist from the non-holding hand, then throws like this will become the standard. Why would you do anything else as a player? A throw is more accurate, it goes further, it's easier to execute etc etc ...

"The standard"? It's the momentum from the swing in the tackle that creates most of the kinetic energy, yes, but most handballs aren't done in a swinging tackle and this type of handball has happened for years.
Umpires will always get some wrong, even with identical motions. He got a fist to it, so it's a legal handball.
If a player kicks the ball while being swung in a tackle, you can argue that most of the momentum has come from the swing and not the leg, but it's still a kick. Also, not sure how accurate this would be compared to a direct handball. Have you seen players kick while swung in a tackle? Tends to make the kick less accurate. Don't see why it wouldn't be the same for a handball (or even a throw). Try throwing a ball at a target while your mate spins you around. Tipping you miss much more often.

The example above looks like a legal disposal to me, but hard to tell with the clunky frame rate of the GIF.

 

[OldBlueFan]

"The standard"? It's the momentum from the swing in the tackle that creates most of the kinetic energy, yes, but most handballs aren't done in a swinging tackle and this type of handball has happened for years.
Umpires will always get some wrong, even with identical motions. He got a fist to it, so it's a legal handball.
If a player kicks the ball while being swung in a tackle, you can argue that most of the momentum has come from the swing and not the leg, but it's still a kick. Also, not sure how accurate this would be compared to a direct handball. Have you seen players kick while swung in a tackle? Tends to make the kick less accurate. Don't see why it wouldn't be the same for a handball (or even a throw). Try throwing a ball at a target while your mate spins you around. Tipping you miss much more often.

The example above looks like a legal disposal to me, but hard to tell with the clunky frame rate of the GIF.

You seem to be missing the point. Obviously the sling is giving the ball its momentum in this case.

My point is that in a legal handball it is meant to be the fist that gives the ball its momentum. As I said in the OP, my understanding is that the ball is meant to be punched clear of the holding hand. The laws of Aus Football 2019 state:

Handball: the act of holding the football in one hand and disposing of it by hitting it with the clenched fist of the other hand

In the example here, the ball is not punched in the direction it travels, so it's not being given its impetus by the "clenched fist".

My point is, if this example constitutes a legal handpass now, how long will it be before players start tossing the ball around underarm and giving it a token tap of their fist as it leaves their grasp? You don't think you could toss a football further and more accurately underarm than you can by punching it?

 

[Scroater]

You seem to be missing the point. Obviously the sling is giving the ball its momentum in this case.

My point is that in a legal handball it is meant to be the fist that gives the ball its momentum. As I said in the OP, my understanding is that the ball is meant to be punched clear of the holding hand. The laws of Aus Football 2019 state:


In the example here, the ball is not punched in the direction it travels, so it's not being given its impetus by the "clenched fist".

My point is, if this example constitutes a legal handpass now, how long will it be before players start tossing the ball around underarm and giving it a token tap of their fist as it leaves their grasp? You don't think you could toss a football further and more accurately underarm than you can by punching it?

The handball is becoming a farce just like holding the ball. Remember when the ball had to be on a stationary hand and propelled with the fist of the other arm. Lost count of how many times we've thrown the ball over our head in the guise of a handball and got away with it. Hi Lachie Hunter and Libba if you're reading.

 

[OldBlueFan]

The handball is becoming a farce just like holding the ball. Remember when the ball had to be on a stationary hand and propelled with the fist of the other arm. Lost count of how many times we've thrown the ball over our head in the guise of a handball and got away with it. Hi Lachie Hunter and Libba if you're reading.

Indeed. In fact, it's becoming almost impossible for a good tackle to actually be rewarded.

Players being tackled can now just let go of the ball, they can fling it away with token fist contact, they can hang on to the ball and wriggle like a fish. About the only tackle that gets rewarded any more, is the run down tackle, or when players blatantly avoid one tackle and get grabbed by a second tackler. Oh, and when the umpires decide to just pull one out of their arse occasionally, leaving us baffled as to why one was paid and not another just like it a few minutes before.

 

[kickazz]

More a stealth interpretation shift. If this was imported like it used to be, 80 percent of handballs would be throws.

The hard part here is defining and interpreting. The example in OP is extreme. Others would be harder to judge, unless you got really strict. If you did that the flow of the game would suffer.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

So, has there been a rule/interpretation change that they haven't widely publicised?

You seem to be under the impression that this is something recent. It isn't.

The Bulldogs 2016 was full of players holding the ball with one hand in fist and just throwing the ball. And it wasn't even a new thing then.

And the hand holding the ball providing momentum has been a big part of handballing since the mid 90s when more and more teams started adopting the "crow throw".

 

[OldBlueFan]

You seem to be under the impression that this is something recent. It isn't.

The Bulldogs 2016 was full of players holding the ball with one hand in fist and just throwing the ball. And it wasn't even a new thing then.

And the hand holding the ball providing momentum has been a big part of handballing since the mid 90s when more and more teams started adopting the "crow throw".

I'd be curious to know if you can find an example of one of those you've mentioned where the ball traveled a full 15 metres from the thrower to the receiver.

I believe the one that I've highlighted would have been called a throw throughout the years that you're talking about.

 

[owen87]

I'd be curious to know if you can find an example of one of those you've mentioned where the ball traveled a full 15 metres from the thrower to the receiver.

I believe the one that I've highlighted would have been called a throw throughout the years that you're talking about.

It doesn't usually happen in a tackle, and it was an average call by the umpire.

What are you looking for here?

They've paid throws with a fist behind the ball as handballs for years now, it's not a new thing, and this was just a call the umpire didn't make that they should have.

 

[OldBlueFan]

It doesn't usually happen in a tackle, and it was an average call by the umpire.

What are you looking for here?

They've paid throws with a fist behind the ball as handballs for years now, it's not a new thing, and this was just a call the umpire didn't make that they should have.

As I said in the OP, the footage comes from On the Couch, where usually if the umpire has made a howler they'll discuss it.

The fact that they blithely ignored such a bad call, and instead were praising the player for their "gut running" means that they also saw nothing wrong with it.

So while you and I think this was just a "bad call" by the umpire, it seems those who would normally comment on such things don't agree. Hence my question about whether there's been an AFL directive we haven't heard about.

 

[owen87]

Hence my question about whether there's been an AFL directive we haven't heard about.

No. Given they've been paying those for years already.

 

[OldBlueFan]

No. Given they've been paying those for years already.

Paying or ignoring?

 

[OldBlueFan]

Well, it's official. Need a little extra distance on your handpass? No problem, just throw it underarm and touch it with your opposite fist on the way through.

 

[The Cardtrader]

Throwing the ball out of a tackle is the new norm.
If they'd pulled it up in the Adelaide v Richmond game, the free kick count would have been about level

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I am sure I heard either the umpire’s advisor or Steven Hocking explain a couple of years ago Hocking’s department had decided to change the interpretation from the ball needing to be propelled by the fist to it just needs to make contact with that fist. It was explained that this is because tackling had risen to such a high level that things needed to be re-balanced.

This is the sort of thing that gets right up my nostrils and it infuriated me at the time and I recall posting about it. The handball is a unique fundamental part of our sport. And was for 170 odd years. Then to make the game look better on TV there is a sudden decision taken to re-define one of the key fundamental aspects of the sport. Most players don’t even bother to handball opposite hand any longer. It is just thrown with the opposite hand and brushes the fist on the way through. Gerard Healy said the other night on First Crack that Lachie Neale

9

Lachie Neale

Age

30

Ht

178cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.0

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

15.5

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.7

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

28.3

5star

K

13.9

5star

HB

14.4

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

7.4

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

, and left hander, has never handballed with his right hand. As in, never even once. How true that is I don’t know but he showed a perfect example of Neale collecting the ball in his left hand, having an easy right hand handball available, but then putting it into his right hand and basically throwing it, just making contact with his left.

If they wanted to reduce the effect of tackling, then only allow one player at a time to tackle the man in possession, or think about restricting tackling in some other way, outlawing full body tackles perhaps.

I know when I played, at country level, we basically just tackled with our arms. And it was extremely rare to be tackled by more than one player at once. It was more like a Bruce Lee movie, one guy would try to tackle you and if you beat him off, then another guy would try to tackle you and so on.

Whatever is the case these fundamental changes should not be altered so reactively. They should be considered carefully and trialled over time. I think the main reason the rules of our sport were formulated so well in the first place was that Tom Wills had played Marngrook growing up with indigenous friends and had also later played early rugby when at Rugby School in England. So from these years of experience he knew what needed to be included and excluded by the laws of the game. Things of course change over time and teams and players find ways of exploiting rules, so changes need to be made. But the fundamental things about the sport have always been brilliant, kicking, marking, handballing, tackling between the waist and chest. These things should never be changed, certainly not just because there is a dip in scoring.

 

[OldBlueFan]

I am sure I heard either the umpire’s advisor or Steven Hocking explain a couple of years ago Hocking’s department had decided to change the interpretation from the ball needing to be propelled by the fist to it just needs to make contact with that fist. It was explained that this is because tackling had risen to such a high level that things needed to be re-balanced.

This is the sort of thing that gets right up my nostrils and it infuriated me at the time and I recall posting about it. The handball is a unique fundamental part of our sport. And was for 170 odd years. Then to make the game look better on TV there is a sudden decision taken to re-define one of the key fundamental aspects of the sport. Most players don’t even bother to handball opposite hand any longer. It is just thrown with the opposite hand and brushes the fist on the way through. Gerard Healy said the other night on First Crack that Lachie Neale, and left hander, has never handballed with his right hand. As in, never even once. How true that is I don’t know but he showed a perfect example of Neale collecting the ball in his left hand, having an easy right hand handball available, but then putting it into his right hand and basically throwing it, just making contact with his left.

If they wanted to reduce the effect of tackling, then only allow one player at a time to tackle the man in possession, or think about restricting tackling in some other way, outlawing full body tackles perhaps.

I know when I played, at country level, we basically just tackled with our arms. And it was extremely rare to be tackled by more than one player at once. It was more like a Bruce Lee movie, one guy would try to tackle you and if you beat him off, then another guy would try to tackle you and so on.

Whatever is the case these fundamental changes should not be altered so reactively. They should be considered carefully and trialled over time. I think the main reason the rules of our sport were formulated so well in the first place was that Tom Wills had played Marngrook growing up with indigenous friends and had also later played early rugby when at Rugby School in England. So from these years of experience he knew what needed to be included and excluded by the laws of the game. Things of course change over time and teams and players find ways of exploiting rules, so changes need to be made. But the fundamental things about the sport have always been brilliant, kicking, marking, handballing, tackling between the waist and chest. These things should never be changed, certainly not just because there is a dip in scoring.

That's the biggest thing for me too. It actually changes the game completely.

As the Butters example shows, it's only a matter of time before this becomes the norm and you no longer see actual handpasses any more. As I said previously, why would you, when an underarm throw is more accurate and is easier to get more distance?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

That's the biggest thing for me too. It actually changes the game completely.

As the Butters example shows, it's only a matter of time before this becomes the norm and you no longer see actual handpasses any more. As I said previously, why would you, when an underarm throw is more accurate and is easier to get more distance?

There is no way that is a handpass, it is a throw, which I know is what you are saying. As things stand throwing is ok as long as you make the pretence of touching it at any point with a closed fist. It is probably something like in soccer saying handling the ball is ok as long as you also touch it with your head, to sort of make it look vaguely like you are heading the ball.

You only have to think about that clearly to realise how insane it is.

 

[HugeJohnson]

Well, it's official. Need a little extra distance on your handpass? No problem, just throw it underarm and touch it with your opposite fist on the way through.
View attachment 1376581

Interested to hear your thoughts on this one by Pittonet too

 

[Purple Suit]

This has come in slowly, a bit like the open hand tap or paddle that Richmond won 3 flags with. It use to be a closed fist only unless it was a ruck tap but you can basically throw it to someone running past as long as you dive or setup a great goal in the process.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

This has come in slowly, a bit like the open hand tap or paddle that Richmond won 3 flags with. It use to be a closed fist only unless it was a ruck tap but you can basically throw it to someone running past as long as you dive or setup a great goal in the process.

When were you ever not allowed to tap the footy? I’ve been watching and playing for 50 odd years it has always been legal to tap the ball with an open hand. If you scoop it or it sits on your hand too long it has always been a throw. Nothing has changed in that regard.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Interested to hear your thoughts on this one by Pittonet too

This one is a throw, clearly, but the ump maybe has a small alibi ruling(incorrectly) that Pittonet never controlled the ball.

But that has nothing to do with what the thread is about. And the Butters one is no slight on Port, every team, virtually every player does this now and gets away with it, the AFL have said it is allowed. What is wrong is that it is allowed. Butters(like just about every other modern player) is throwing that in any other era since the sport was invented. If they are so determined to allow players to throw they should just legalise throwing and do away with the hand pass, that would be less insane than the current scenario where throwing is fine as long as any slight contact is made with the fist on the way out. But it should never even be in dispute, a hand pass should only be allowable where the fist is the sole thing propelling the ball, as was the case for the first 160+ years since the sport was first played.

 

[Purple Suit]

When were you ever not allowed to tap the footy? I’ve been watching and playing for 50 odd years it has always been legal to tap the ball with an open hand. If you scoop it or it sits on your hand too long it has always been a throw. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Tap it to yourself, yes. But tap/get under it it with an open hand to some one running past, throw. You use to have to punch it which is a lot harder to execute.

It’s like holding the ball though, if the ball comes loose the umpires don’t care as the afl has give the direction of ball movement at all cost.

Stoppages are the devil, frustrating fans with bullshit 50m & confusing rules? No comment.

 

[OldBlueFan]

Interested to hear your thoughts on this one by Pittonet too

Pittonet just dropped the ball. Another action that's become so common that it hardly bares mentioning. Here's where I mentioned it previously.

Indeed. In fact, it's becoming almost impossible for a good tackle to actually be rewarded.

Players being tackled can now just let go of the ball, they can fling it away with token fist contact, they can hang on to the ball and wriggle like a fish. About the only tackle that gets rewarded any more, is the run down tackle, or when players blatantly avoid one tackle and get grabbed by a second tackler. Oh, and when the umpires decide to just pull one out of their arse occasionally, leaving us baffled as to why one was paid and not another just like it a few minutes before.

What's your point? This isn't a Carlton vs Port disposal thread. Look at the OP, it was in the Richmond v Saints game.