A question for Peter Bell?

[theGav56]

By the way, I like both Webster and MacManus, but given they are already in the team... ah don't worry, you wouldn't get it.

Tackling is one of the key ways that you can measure "toughness" and "commitment". Headland has 33% more tackles per game than Webster, even though Headland is tagged often, whereas Webster is asked to stop players. That is, Webster's specific skill area should make him strong in tackling.

Question; Why does Headland (non-tough, non-committed footballer) average significantly more tackles per game than Webster (tough, committed footballer)?

 

[Belnakor]

Question; Why does Headland (non-tough, non-committed footballer) average significantly more tackles per game than Webster (tough, committed footballer)?

Because he is not in there, diving for the ball where he might get hurt. He lurks around the pack, waits for the opposition to take the ball, and then grabs him. Hes is a reactionary player.

 

[theGav56]

Because he is not in there, diving for the ball where he might get hurt. He lurks around the pack, waits for the opposition to take the ball, and then grabs him. Hes is a reactionary player.

That sounds much more like you have an issue with the guys whose job it is toget the ball than with Des Headland???

• Are you suggesting that when the opposition gets the ball we shouldn't have players to tackle them?

• When our players "dive on the ball" what would you like them to do with it? I quite like the startegy of getting it out to someone with the skills to deliver it to our forwards (for example).

 

[Belnakor]

That sounds much more like you have an issue with the guys whose job it is toget the ball than with Des Headland???

• Are you suggesting that when the opposition gets the ball we shouldn't have players to tackle them?

• When our players "dive on the ball" what would you like them to do with it? I quite like the startegy of getting it out to someone with the skills to deliver it to our forwards (for example).

No, i'm saying that if there is a 50/50 situation, DJ is happy to wait for the opposition player to make the move for the ball, at which point DJ will tackle them. Hardness at the ball is not always reflected in tackle stats.

When our players dive on the ball they need to get it out obviously. But they should not preclude people like Des Headland going after the ball also. You make it sound like Des Headland is streets ahead of other players on our list with his disposals. Hes not, and even if he was, if he is closest to the ball he should dive on it, not wait for the opposition player to do so and then tackle him.

 

[theGav56]

So when a player is tackled with the ball, who gets the ball? One of our weak areas is tackling. It causes turnovers and creates pressure on the deliverer, and I thought was one of the key reasons people think players such as Webster, Cook, Solomon and Duffield should get selected.

 

[Belnakor]

So when a player is tackled with the ball, who gets the ball? .

Whoever is second to the contest. You apparantly think its OK for Des to hang off the ball and wait for a cheap handball recieve. He is a better player than that, and he has the ability to win his own ball, he just doesn't want to.

 

[FootyEater]

No, i'm saying that if there is a 50/50 situation, DJ is happy to wait for the opposition player to make the move for the ball, at which point DJ will tackle them. Hardness at the ball is not always reflected in tackle stats.

When our players dive on the ball they need to get it out obviously. But they should not preclude people like Des Headland going after the ball also. You make it sound like Des Headland is streets ahead of other players on our list with his disposals. Hes not, and even if he was, if he is closest to the ball he should dive on it, not wait for the opposition player to do so and then tackle him.

I completely agree with you belnakor, headland is too damned soft, and whatever tackles he does get are purely because he would rather do the easier thing in sitting back, than going and getting the ball.

leading kick getter? well i struggle to believe that, but if he is the leading "kick" getter, how many of them are after a soft hand pass after a mark. how many of them are goals?, and how many of them are just blind kicks forward?

his lack of desperation and overall heart is a liability to our team, especially since we are often questioned about or commitment when the going gets tough.

headland is with out doubt in our top 5 players for talent, however he has never been in our top ten b&f making him our biggest disappointment.

his ego is like his salary, to big for what he provides, he had one great game this year after he got his emotions stirred (for once) and he showed his true ability, but the next week he was back to his usuall passenger-like self.

there is no way headland gets more ball than joshy carr, mj, macca, hase or even taz who plays at full forward. i reckon we should drop him, get his attitude right. look what happened last time we dropped him, he ended up with 35 touches for subi and kicked 5 off a wing, came back to the dockers played well for a couple of games and dropped off again. im just so sick of people defending this dudd. he should be in jail for robbery because that is what he is doing almost every week by taking his pay cheque

i would take 1 mcmanus for 10 headlands, maccas skills arent the best, but he tackles, he chases, he isnt a front runner, you always know what your gonna get, and more importantly, he is proud of the jumper, and would do anything for it, cookie and webster are the same. headland couldnt give a toss. the moment the team is down by four goals, you might as well bench him, because thats the end of his effort.

a rant i know, but im sick of this underachieving, overrated and overpayed dud, youd find more heart in a lump of wood

 

[Belnakor]

I completely agree with you belnakor, headland is too damned soft, and whatever tackles he does get are purely because he would rather do the easier thing in sitting back, than going and getting the ball.

leading kick getter? well i struggle to believe that, but if he is the leading "kick" getter, how many of them are after a soft hand pass after a mark. how many of them are goals?, and how many of them are just blind kicks forward?

his lack of desperation and overall heart is a liability to our team, especially since we are often questioned about or commitment when the going gets tough.

headland is with out doubt in our top 5 players for talent, however he has never been in our top ten b&f making him our biggest disappointment.

his ego is like his salary, to big for what he provides, he had one great game this year after he got his emotions stirred (for once) and he showed his true ability, but the next week he was back to his usuall passenger-like self.

there is no way headland gets more ball than joshy carr, mj, macca, hase or even taz who plays at full forward. i reckon we should drop him, get his attitude right. look what happened last time we dropped him, he ended up with 35 touches for subi and kicked 5 off a wing, came back to the dockers played well for a couple of games and dropped off again. im just so sick of people defending this dudd. he should be in jail for robbery because that is what he is doing almost every week by taking his pay cheque

i would take 1 mcmanus for 10 headlands, maccas skills arent the best, but he tackles, he chases, he isnt a front runner, you always know what your gonna get, and more importantly, he is proud of the jumper, and would do anything for it, cookie and webster are the same. headland couldnt give a toss. the moment the team is down by four goals, you might as well bench him, because thats the end of his effort.

a rant i know, but im sick of this underachieving, overrated and overpayed dud, youd find more heart in a lump of wood

Quoted for truth.

 

[Kenny_01]

his ego is like his salary, to big for what he provides, he had one great game this year after he got his emotions stirred (for once) and he showed his true ability, but the next week he was back to his usuall passenger-like self.

Umm no he wasn't... he was good against Adelaide.

I love the Headland baggers and their sweeping statements... they quickly forget the games in between his top shelf game and his last game, and as soon as we lose and he plays below average... boom... its Headland's fault.

Ask our coaching staff and they will tell you he is one of our most important players. He attracts a defensive player every week (Hawthorn thought they would play their best tagger Sewell on DJ instead of Hasleby. Bell or JCarr), and Headland got us back in the game. We would have lost without him.

Why would the coaching staff drop him? So J Carr or Black or whoever gets a close tag?

Des appears sluggish at times but I have never seen him shirk a contest.

there is no way headland gets more ball than macca

What ball does Macca get?

Des is in our side to be an outside player. We have players like McManus who are meant to be able to play inside but he never can win the ball in a contested situation, and is 2nd to the ball and lays some tackles... but what do we hear from the Freo faithful.... ooo Macca, see that unbelievable tackle.... man I wish Headland gave a 110% like him. But if Headland lays a tackle, he should be in there winning the ball

Des is never going to be an inside player. We need our inside players to improve, and attract the defensive midfielders to help players like Headland out.

 

[Belnakor]

Des is never going to be an inside player. We need our inside players to improve, and attract the defensive midfielders to help players like Headland out.

This inside/outside player thing is a nonsense. You are only saying that because you believe it gives Headland the right to wait outside packs and dodge the phsyical contact. If you are first to the ball, you become an "inside" player, you need to get the ball off the turf and to your teammates. Headland dodges this, and waits for the opposition player to take the ball.

We know Headland is capable of playing committed football, we have seen it after he was dropped to the WAFL, and in the melbourne game. If he did that every week we would not have an issue.

 

[FootyEater]

Umm no he wasn't... he was good against Adelaide.

I love the Headland baggers and their sweeping statements... they quickly forget the games in between his top shelf game and his last game, and as soon as we lose and he plays below average... boom... its Headland's fault.

Ask our coaching staff and they will tell you he is one of our most important players. He attracts a defensive player every week (Hawthorn thought they would play their best tagger Sewell on DJ instead of Hasleby. Bell or JCarr), and Headland got us back in the game. We would have lost without him.

Why would the coaching staff drop him? So J Carr or Black or whoever gets a close tag?

Des appears sluggish at times but I have never seen him shirk a contest.




What ball does Macca get?

Des is in our side to be an outside player. We have players like McManus who are meant to be able to play inside but he never can win the ball in a contested situation, and is 2nd to the ball and lays some tackles... but what do we hear from the Freo faithful.... ooo Macca, see that unbelievable tackle.... man I wish Headland gave a 110% like him. But if Headland lays a tackle, he should be in there winning the ball

Des is never going to be an inside player. We need our inside players to improve, and attract the defensive midfielders to help players like Headland out.

Firstly for the record, i have been a headland bagger for three years now, im not a band wagon bagger, i admitted he had a great game against melbourne, but havent seen him play a good game in a long time before that.

secondly, you can be an outside player, and still show commitment by chasing, sheppherding etc, headlands body language and effort is clear to see when you go to the games, it is non existant.

thirdly, the B&F is awarded via votes given by the coaches, headland has never been in the top ten, he must be REALLY rated by the coaches to have never been in the top ten.

fourth, i hate the eagles, but michael braun is an outside player, and he has a hell of a lot more input than headland. shannon grant, brent harvey, akermanis (although not as much this year) andrew mcleod, the list goes on and on, all of these players play that role a hell of a lot better than headland. and they are all a hell of a lot more reliable than des.

400K a year? hes not worth half that

 

[estibador]

Maybe we do need a sub-board. We can call it the Drop Des board and move every thread there that gets hijacked by the anti-Des crusaders.

Wouldn't leave much on the main board though.

 

[FootyEater]

Maybe we do need a sub-board. We can call it the Drop Des board and move every thread there that gets hijacked by the anti-Des crusaders.

Wouldn't leave much on the main board though.

i see your point, every discussion does seem to come back to des, the problem is, is that we are not playing wel at the moment, and most of the threads lead to our ordinary performance. and the fact is, is that headland is in terrible form. but your right, im gonna start up a des headland thread

 

[Kenny_01]

Firstly for the record, i have been a headland bagger for three years now, im not a band wagon bagger, i admitted he had a great game against melbourne, but havent seen him play a good game in a long time before that.

secondly, you can be an outside player, and still show commitment by chasing, sheppherding etc, headlands body language and effort is clear to see when you go to the games, it is non existant.

thirdly, the B&F is awarded via votes given by the coaches, headland has never been in the top ten, he must be REALLY rated by the coaches to have never been in the top ten.

fourth, i hate the eagles, but michael braun is an outside player, and he has a hell of a lot more input than headland. shannon grant, brent harvey, akermanis (although not as much this year) andrew mcleod, the list goes on and on, all of these players play that role a hell of a lot better than headland. and they are all a hell of a lot more reliable than des.

400K a year? hes not worth half that

a) You don't know what he is paid. Don't make up a figure.

b) I acknowledge Des struggles at times when he is tagged but he is tagged more often or not so that releases pressure on our other midfielders. Just by that fact, he is contributing to the team.

c) Des does not shirk contests and actually goes pretty hard at it when the situation arises. I challenge you to find me just one contest where he has shirked the issue and then I'll shut up.

d) Des has only had one season at Freo where he has played all 22 games. Our B&F favours players who play all 22 games and if you go back and look, most of the top 10 play 22 games. I acknowledge he has struggled at times but right now over the last 4 or 5 games, he has been one of our better players.

e) I guarantee you Des will finish top 10 in our B&F if he is allowed to run by himself which is a luxury most our other midfielders have, but Des does not.

 

[Kenny_01]

This inside/outside player thing is a nonsense. You are only saying that because you believe it gives Headland the right to wait outside packs and dodge the phsyical contact. If you are first to the ball, you become an "inside" player, you need to get the ball off the turf and to your teammates. Headland dodges this, and waits for the opposition player to take the ball.

We know Headland is capable of playing committed football, we have seen it after he was dropped to the WAFL, and in the melbourne game. If he did that every week we would not have an issue.

Des does not dodge packs lol If you can find one play where he clearly dodges the pack, again I will ackowledge you are right. I KNOW you won't find one because your points come from thin air.

 

[Belnakor]

Des does not dodge packs lol If you can find one play where he clearly dodges the pack, again I will ackowledge you are right. I KNOW you won't find one because your points come from thin air.

Challenge accepted. I will watch him this week and find a couple of instances.

 

[theGav56]

Firstly for the record, i have been a headland bagger for three years now, im not a band wagon bagger, i admitted he had a great game against melbourne, but havent seen him play a good game in a long time before that.

secondly, you can be an outside player, and still show commitment by chasing, sheppherding etc, headlands body language and effort is clear to see when you go to the games, it is non existant.

thirdly, the B&F is awarded via votes given by the coaches, headland has never been in the top ten, he must be REALLY rated by the coaches to have never been in the top ten.

fourth, i hate the eagles, but michael braun is an outside player, and he has a hell of a lot more input than headland. shannon grant, brent harvey, akermanis (although not as much this year) andrew mcleod, the list goes on and on, all of these players play that role a hell of a lot better than headland. and they are all a hell of a lot more reliable than des.

400K a year? hes not worth half that

So, that list of players you put up, is there anyone of them that wouldn't walk into our best 22? A Brownlow medalist or two. Best player in a Grand Final, the reigning Ross Glendenning Medalist. And gee, you don't think Headland is as good as them. Shame Des shame.

 

[estibador]

the reigning Ross Glendenning Medalist. And gee, you don't think Headland is as good as them. Shame Des shame.

If Dessie isn't aiming to at least be better than Braun then we do have problems.

 

[theGav56]

If Dessie isn't aiming to at least be better than Braun then we do have problems.

We didn't manage to find anyone better than Braun in the derby.

For what it's worth, I do think Headland needs to lift his game and definitely needs to get his bad games closer to the standard of his good games. I also think he should be in for a substantial pay-reality-cheque when his contract gets renegotiated. But he is clearly a best 22 player.

Unfortunately what I think happens with Headland is people don't compare him to other players; they do compare him to elite players. Maybe what he is showing us is his full potential, and we shouldn't expect him to to produce better. Then if he does, that's a bonus rather than the standard he "should" be at all the time.

 

[pistol17]

On talent alone Des is in our best 22 easily, probably in the first 10 or so picked each week. The problem some supporters are having(me included) is we are expecting a hasleby like performance from Des. They would be on about the same salary. Granted Hase and Des are slightly different players, i would say Hase is a lot more consistent, hase also gets a tag and still manages to have an influence on the game.

Guess what a lot of baggers(again me included) would just like to see more consistency out of Des. He does get targeted a lot but thats because everyone recognises the guys talent and want to see more of it more often.

 

[theGav56]

Granted Hase and Des are slightly different players, i would say Hase is a lot more consistent, hase also gets a tag and still manages to have an influence on the game.

Yes Headland's consistency (lack of) is a pain in the arse. But he is also dependeant on our in-and-under players winning or at least playing well. Hasleby is one of them and as such isn't as dependant on anyone else except Sandilands winning the tap. As has been pointed out before, if Hasleby has a good game that will usually translate through to headland doing alright.

 

[pistol17]

Yes Headland's consistency (lack of) is a pain in the arse. But he is also dependeant on our in-and-under players winning or at least playing well. Hasleby is one of them and as such isn't as dependant on anyone else except Sandilands winning the tap. As has been pointed out before, if Hasleby has a good game that will usually translate through to headland doing alright.

Headland shouldnt need Hasleby, J. Carr or anyone else to get him the ball. Yes it would help Des if Hasleby gave him the ball 25+ times per game but reality is Des needs to work a lot harder to get the ball himself and not rely on his teammates to win it for him. As far as im concerned this inside/outside player stuff is garbage, if the ball is there to be won you go and get it, not wait until an "inside" player comes to feed the ball out.

 

[theGav56]

As far as im concerned this inside/outside player stuff is garbage

18 AFL coaches seem to disagree and have midfielders with specific (though not exclusive) roles as inside or outside midfielders.

 

[Belnakor]

18 AFL coaches seem to disagree and have midfielders with specific (though not exclusive) roles as inside or outside midfielders.

The problem is you seem to think its OK that Des plays an exlusively outside role.

 

[pistol17]

18 AFL coaches seem to disagree and have midfielders with specific (though not exclusive) roles as inside or outside midfielders.

Since when were there 18 AFL teams to have 18 AFL Coaches