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List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

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Bletch said:
Dow could get 50 possessions in the 2s next week and still not get picked. It's not his ability to win the ball that is the issue, it's what he does (or doesn't do) when the opposition has the ball. Until the selection committee see a change in that side of his game, he won't get a run in the seniors.
Click to expand...

An 18 year old, 3 VFL games in Binns essentially matched his output, but Dow is hard done by
 
When I see players like Honey getting a gig doing 2 bits of f all in the 2’s ahead of him I will call it out.

It’s a disgrace

You can add Martin to that list as well, who gets a gig in the 1’s no matter what

Dow can now play HFF, he’s been interchanging for 2 years between there and midfield

Like someone else said, he’s being held to a much higher account than many others for the same perceived issues


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F_therest said:
Possibly, but if so don't agree with it. May have worked at GWS because they had a lot of draft capital and had go home factors to plan for. We had neither of these things.

Thankfully we turned SPS into Young so happy with that outcome.

Fisher, LOB and Cunners still thereabouts for our senior team.

Not looking great for Dow. Stings that LDU and even Cerra were taken directly after.

Stocker not a good outcome. Prob unders for Setterfield but we weren't in a position to drive a hard bargain.
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Stocker and Setters just had fk all value from any trade perspective - playing predominantly in the 2s as depth and unable to break into the senior side but for injuries. Not surprised Setters is doing well given he is effectively Essendon's first big bodied midfielder and now a walk up start. Compare that to Carlton where he's well below the pecking order. As for Stocker, well, there was no way he was going to take the role occupied by Doc or Saad. So unless he became lockdown it was looking grim for him. Both will potentially forge reasonable careers at this rate, but their futures were looking dim at the Blues because we had better quality players to occupy their best positions.
 

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Arr0w said:
A fair bit of discussion across multiple threads, regarding talent ID, development, selection, erc

When you get a couple of kids, like Hollands and Cowan (I would have selected differently at those pick), not really getting a lot of the pill, but doing all the things required defensively and structurally, to play in their first year, it's a credit to both players
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I'll put my hand up and say that after watching the U18 championships last year, I was hoping that we wouldn't pick Hollands as all the rumours were indicating. Played well in the final, but didn't do a lot to impress me in the other matches - especially in the Academy game vs Pies VFL team, where he looked totally out of his depth playing against men.

What we've seen so far, he's proved me wrong - looks like a kid who's absolutely hungry to give whatever it takes to become an AFL player, and could see him improving dramatically over the next few years with his drive and work rate. Similar with Cow - who I did like a lot in the Champs - but also seems to have that hunger. Not the most talented, but willing to give 100%....which is why he'll be a favourite among the supporters and coaches.

I reckon I've watched that video of our list management crew on draft night about 20 times....we know it's highly edited, but it appeared that Binnsy was the one we were really targeting - too much of a reach with our first pick, but very much in the frame with our 2nd rounder. Cow was a bit of 'bonus' through the trade with the Pies, and Lem was a hail mary at the back end.

I know you've mentioned it before, but interested to see who would you have gone with, with the picks we had?
 
Bamboo Harvester said:
I'll put my hand up and say that after watching the U18 championships last year, I was hoping that we wouldn't pick Hollands as all the rumours were indicating. Played well in the final, but didn't do a lot to impress me in the other matches - especially in the Academy game vs Pies VFL team, where he looked totally out of his depth playing against men.

What we've seen so far, he's proved me wrong - looks like a kid who's absolutely hungry to give whatever it takes to become an AFL player, and could see him improving dramatically over the next few years with his drive and work rate. Similar with Cow - who I did like a lot in the Champs - but also seems to have that hunger. Not the most talented, but willing to give 100%....which is why he'll be a favourite among the supporters and coaches.

I reckon I've watched that video of our list management crew on draft night about 20 times....we know it's highly edited, but it appeared that Binnsy was the one we were really targeting - too much of a reach with our first pick, but very much in the frame with our 2nd rounder. Cow was a bit of 'bonus' through the trade with the Pies, and Lem was a hail mary at the back end.

I know you've mentioned it before, but interested to see who would you have gone with, with the picks we had?
Click to expand...

This is how I rated them long term

List Mgmt. - 2022 AFL Draft & Rookie Draft

www.bigfooty.com www.bigfooty.com
 
www.afl.com.au

Who's on the table? Full list of 2023 free agents revealed

The AFL has released the full free agents list for 2023
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au

RESTRICTED FREE AGENTS​

Tom Doedee (Adelaide)
Darcy Parish (Essendon)
Mason Redman (Essendon)
Harry Himmelberg (GWS)
Ben McKay (North Melbourne)
Charlie Dixon (Port Adelaide)
Jade Gresham (St Kilda)

CARLTON UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENTS​

David Cuningham
Ed Curnow
Sam Durdin
Lachie Plowman
Jack Silvagni
 
Arr0w said:
This is how I rated them long term

List Mgmt. - 2022 AFL Draft & Rookie Draft

www.bigfooty.com www.bigfooty.com
Click to expand...
A few players on that list like Szybkowski and Hagan that were probably unlucky not to have made it onto an AFL list, but no doubt recruiters will be keeping an eye on before the mid season draft. A poster on here a while back mentioned that Carlton have told Kobe Ryan (West Adelaide) that they will be watching him very closely this year. Apparently he was still on the board for us on draft night - but we had no list spots available.
 
Hollands and Binns put up the best game day running and pressure ratings of anyone in their draft. Neither are supreme offensive weapons which I tend to be attracted to, but in hindsight this draft is far more stocked in that department so not trading up for Humphries or Pou was probably the right decision.

That being said I was always a massive advocate for Hollands if we kept our pick 11. He was a better player than LoB even while still in his draft year and while no more physically built, he's got the hunger and talent to make the defensive plays that LoB consistently fails with.

Once Ollie becomes more powerful in his running, I can see him being one of the best wings in the league. Right now he's just trundling up and down covering huge ground without a burst of speed that would allow him to get more seperaton in the contest and on the outside. Joining Harry down at the speed academy on the holidays would be my suggestion. Just getting that extra 3-4% would do him wonders long term.
 
El Topo said:
I get the sense that Kemp is playing understudy to Gov at the moment. Brodie should request a trade if not, you don't draft a guy like him to be a back pocket.
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Absolutely. Bloke would be crushed finishing his career alongside the likes of Alvin, English or Sexton.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Hollands and Binns put up the best game day running and pressure ratings of anyone in their draft. Neither are supreme offensive weapons which I tend to be attracted to, but in hindsight this draft is far more stocked in that department so not trading up for Humphries or Pou was probably the right decision.

That being said I was always a massive advocate for Hollands if we kept our pick 11. He was a better player than LoB even while still in his draft year and while no more physically built, he's got the hunger and talent to make the defensive plays that LoB consistently fails with.

Once Ollie becomes more powerful in his running, I can see him being one of the best wings in the league. Right now he's just trundling up and down covering huge ground without a burst of speed that would allow him to get more seperaton in the contest and on the outside. Joining Harry down at the speed academy on the holidays would be my suggestion. Just getting that extra 3-4% would do him wonders long term.
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Binns played very well in the VFL in last game along with Kemp and young Heath Ramshaw he must be close to getting a AFL Debut.
 
May I pop in and offer my Dow views. I think he is both improving AND not hard done by. I’m not sure there’s a spot for Hewitt in our best midfield let alone Dow right now.

BUT I also believe his (positive) trendline on his weaknesses are heading to him having a very solid AFL career.

His running is DEF getting better. His run to receive in link up play is def getting better. His intensity is higher. Tackling better. Pressure acts seem better. Defensive running to cover space better.

He’s still fading a bit late in games which sees him fall off a chase more than you’d like. Kicking is still Ed Curnow like. But he’s getting closer and closer to neutralising his definciencies.

He doesn’t deserve a game yet.

But his strengths are just phenomenal. He is simply top shelf afl standard at ground ball gets. Hand below knees at pace ridiculously good. Top top shelf. His lateral movement and explosiveness is top top shelf. I couldn’t name 10 players in the afl better at Paddy at the stuff he’s great at.

If he can keep at it and keep at it and continue to close the gaps he will be a long term AFl player.
 
Apparently word was the Blues were very very interested in Sheezel, moving up that high was virtually impossible and never going to happen anyway…
Sheezel Rachelle Perkins Holmes adding 2 medium forwards/midfield similar types into the team would transform the forward dynamic significantly…

2024…
Newman Young McGovern
Williams Weitering Saad
Hollands Cripps Acres
Motlop Lemmey Rachelle*
Curnow McKay Durdin

DeKoning Walsh Cerra

Holmes* Docherty Hewett Kennedy
Sub- Fisher (take your pick)

Silvagni (Dow) (O’Brien) Carroll Kemp (Martin) Cowan Pittonet (Cunners) Binns Boyd (Honey) S.Durdin O’Keefe Owies Mirkov Cottrell (Akuei) (Cincotta)?

Fogarty Plowman Marchbank Philp (EdCurnow)? probably front runners to go, also can see Ed atm possibly being retained, another handful in the mix all depending on form development injuries…

List requirements needed atm imo…
2- medium forwards
2- speed/endurance midfielders
2- small & medium defenders
1- key position forward
1- key position defender
 

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Bamboo Harvester said:
I'll put my hand up and say that after watching the U18 championships last year, I was hoping that we wouldn't pick Hollands as all the rumours were indicating. Played well in the final, but didn't do a lot to impress me in the other matches - especially in the Academy game vs Pies VFL team, where he looked totally out of his depth playing against men.

What we've seen so far, he's proved me wrong - looks like a kid who's absolutely hungry to give whatever it takes to become an AFL player, and could see him improving dramatically over the next few years with his drive and work rate. Similar with Cow - who I did like a lot in the Champs - but also seems to have that hunger. Not the most talented, but willing to give 100%....which is why he'll be a favourite among the supporters and coaches.

I reckon I've watched that video of our list management crew on draft night about 20 times....we know it's highly edited, but it appeared that Binnsy was the one we were really targeting - too much of a reach with our first pick, but very much in the frame with our 2nd rounder. Cow was a bit of 'bonus' through the trade with the Pies, and Lem was a hail mary at the back end.

I know you've mentioned it before, but interested to see who would you have gone with, with the picks we had?
Click to expand...


Some players just 'take' to senior AFL footy.

I have a mate who played some reserves footy for Essendon back in the early 80's. He told me how Mark Harvey was similar - he was no great stand out at junior level but was pretty good at Under 19's level. Through injuries he got a late season start in '83 (I think) in the reserves and basically was able to play at a similar standard.

The next year he was in the seniors and played in the '84 flag. He just had that ability to maintain his level of performance as he stepped up the grades and benefitted from better training and coaching.
 
Arr0w said:
The game has gone past just purely winning the ball, it's more about the effectiveness of those possessions and the most critical aspect, what you do when you or your team doesn't have the pill

Most players are either unwilling or incapable of improving their deficiencies to be regular AFL players, even with the best support structures, it's no different to any other organisation or industry
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Thanks to Clarkson, more than ever the game is set up like soccer.

The positioning of the team and "grid" or "zone" players are in and strictly adhering to your role therein is almost as important in some positions/players as is getting possession. Not a sexy thing or exciting thing for fans to talk about but it's the reality.

Hollands so far in his career is the type to play his role in that zone excellently. Offensively lacking, but in terms of team play and set up I'd go so far as to say he's elite. His ability to hold shape has been referenced by his coaches several times and the kms he does up and down the wing are elite. The modern AFL role player if ever there was one.

Is it as exciting or .. whatever, as Nick Daicos or Sam Walsh? Not really, but he's been crucial to building a structure which is something every team is striving for, whether it sounds exciting to fans or not.

FWIW Cottrell has been that play until his injury on the wing too, also does it very well.
 
Am I correct in saying there’s next no trade value in the players who could go season end:

Dow = maybe a fourth rounder

LoB = we delisted him so no trade value

Philp = no trade value

Marchbank = no trade value and I doubt a club would pick him up even if delisted

Cuners = see Marchbank (though if he can get on the park and show some form might get an extended contract)

JSOS = a third rounder at best

Kemp = maybe a fourth rounder, but likely no trade value

Fogarty = no trade value

Plow = a fourth rounder at best.

By the way, I’m not saying all these players will be leaving the club (I doubt we trade and delist 9 players). Just that they have next to no value.

It’s why I think we will take 2 at the national draft and then sniff around come rookie time.


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Coops93 said:
Thanks to Clarkson, more than ever the game is set up like soccer.

The positioning of the team and "grid" or "zone" players are in and strictly adhering to your role therein is almost as important in some positions/players as is getting possession. Not a sexy thing or exciting thing for fans to talk about but it's the reality.

Hollands so far in his career is the type to play his role in that zone excellently. Offensively lacking, but in terms of team play and set up I'd go so far as to say he's elite. His ability to hold shape has been referenced by his coaches several times and the kms he does up and down the wing are elite. The modern AFL role player if ever there was one.

Is it as exciting or .. whatever, as Nick Daicos or Sam Walsh? Not really, but he's been crucial to building a structure which is something every team is striving for, whether it sounds exciting to fans or not.

FWIW Cottrell has been that play until his injury on the wing too, also does it very well.
Click to expand...

Think it started way before Clarkson, certainly many innovations that have been refined and countered over time

Northey started the forward/over the top handball, even though it was credited to Sheedy

Walls implemented a kick in strategy, coaches combated that with out riders

Wallace took zones from basketball, to stop an unbeaten * in 2000

Clarkson rolling defensive cluster

Hardwicks chaos footy, adding extra numbers to the front of each fall of the ball

McCrae taking the above and setting a surrounding diamond formation around the contest

Many, many more tactics employed along the way
 
Arr0w said:
Think it started way before Clarkson, certainly many innovations that have been refined and countered over time

Northey started the forward/over the top handball, even though it was credited to Sheedy

Walls implemented a kick in strategy, coached combated that with out riders

Wallace took zones from basket ball, to stop an unbeaten * in 2000

Clarkson rolling defensive cluster

Hardwicks chaos footy, adding extra numbers to the front of each fall of the ball

McCrae taking the above and setting a surrounding diamond formation around the contest

Many, many more tactics employed along the way
Click to expand...
Whether he started it or not, he's the one who turned it into the way modern footy is played. It was probably coming anyway, but you can't take it away from him.

Either way, we've got a soldier (or 2, in Mooboy) who will play with the discipline to adhere to it which is great.
 
Mondyboy said:
Am I correct in saying there’s next no trade value in the players who could go season end:

Dow = maybe a fourth rounder

LoB = we delisted him so no trade value

Philp = no trade value

Marchbank = no trade value and I doubt a club would pick him up even if delisted

Cuners = see Marchbank (though if he can get on the park and show some form might get an extended contract)

JSOS = a third rounder at best

Kemp = maybe a fourth rounder, but likely no trade value

Fogarty = no trade value

Plow = a fourth rounder at best.

By the way, I’m not saying all these players will be leaving the club (I doubt we trade and delist 9 players). Just that they have next to no value.

It’s why I think we will take 2 at the national draft and then sniff around come rookie time.


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Click to expand...

Pretty much agree with all that. I think JSOS would get us a definite 3rd rounder either via trade or free agency given he would require a good offer to leave but probably no more.

LOB I don't think is on the chopping block. He has a contract for next year. If a contract saved fogarty last year who otherwise would have been at the top of the delist pile no way LOB goes.
 

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windows1 said:
May I pop in and offer my Dow views. I think he is both improving AND not hard done by. I’m not sure there’s a spot for Hewitt in our best midfield let alone Dow right now.

BUT I also believe his (positive) trendline on his weaknesses are heading to him having a very solid AFL career.

His running is DEF getting better. His run to receive in link up play is def getting better. His intensity is higher. Tackling better. Pressure acts seem better. Defensive running to cover space better.

He’s still fading a bit late in games which sees him fall off a chase more than you’d like. Kicking is still Ed Curnow like. But he’s getting closer and closer to neutralising his definciencies.

He doesn’t deserve a game yet.

But his strengths are just phenomenal. He is simply top shelf afl standard at ground ball gets. Hand below knees at pace ridiculously good. Top top shelf. His lateral movement and explosiveness is top top shelf. I couldn’t name 10 players in the afl better at Paddy at the stuff he’s great at.

If he can keep at it and keep at it and continue to close the gaps he will be a long term AFl player.
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Good to know but does his stats support this?
 
Arr0w said:
An 18 year old, 3 VFL games in Binns essentially matched his output, but Dow is hard done by
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Dow would get all the attention though. Dow is the best player in the VFL.

I think Dow actually has 2 ways to make it:
1-improve his deficiencies which Voss and co have been trying to stamp out for more than 12 months; or
2-make his strengths so good that we have to play him ahead of guys like Kennedy, Hewett...and let them be relegated or play a different role

Maybe 2- is unrealistic, but if he's getting 40 a week (hypothetically) we can't ignore him like Sydney did with Tom Mitchell, or Hawks did with Josh Kennedy.
 
windows1 said:
May I pop in and offer my Dow views. I think he is both improving AND not hard done by. I’m not sure there’s a spot for Hewitt in our best midfield let alone Dow right now.

BUT I also believe his (positive) trendline on his weaknesses are heading to him having a very solid AFL career.

His running is DEF getting better. His run to receive in link up play is def getting better. His intensity is higher. Tackling better. Pressure acts seem better. Defensive running to cover space better.

He’s still fading a bit late in games which sees him fall off a chase more than you’d like. Kicking is still Ed Curnow like. But he’s getting closer and closer to neutralising his definciencies.

He doesn’t deserve a game yet.

But his strengths are just phenomenal. He is simply top shelf afl standard at ground ball gets. Hand below knees at pace ridiculously good. Top top shelf. His lateral movement and explosiveness is top top shelf. I couldn’t name 10 players in the afl better at Paddy at the stuff he’s great at.

If he can keep at it and keep at it and continue to close the gaps he will be a long term AFl player.
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Great reading windows! If this is true, I'd rather play him in some sort of Fisher role, with Fisher playing more as a small forward. Worth a shot!
 
windows1 said:
May I pop in and offer my Dow views. I think he is both improving AND not hard done by. I’m not sure there’s a spot for Hewitt in our best midfield let alone Dow right now.

BUT I also believe his (positive) trendline on his weaknesses are heading to him having a very solid AFL career.

His running is DEF getting better. His run to receive in link up play is def getting better. His intensity is higher. Tackling better. Pressure acts seem better. Defensive running to cover space better.

He’s still fading a bit late in games which sees him fall off a chase more than you’d like. Kicking is still Ed Curnow like. But he’s getting closer and closer to neutralising his definciencies.

He doesn’t deserve a game yet.

But his strengths are just phenomenal. He is simply top shelf afl standard at ground ball gets. Hand below knees at pace ridiculously good. Top top shelf. His lateral movement and explosiveness is top top shelf. I couldn’t name 10 players in the afl better at Paddy at the stuff he’s great at.

If he can keep at it and keep at it and continue to close the gaps he will be a long term AFl player.
Click to expand...

Guess the million dollar question is: does the club hold the same view?

You never want to wish for an injury, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if, for example, Cripps missed a block of games. Does that open the door for Dow to come in and play a pure contested/clearance focused game, and if he's the primary option does his good VFL form in the same role carry over?

I reckon the only way he stays on the list past this year is if something happens to give him a senior opportunity, and then he steps up and dominates, challenging the MC to find ways to keep him in the side.
 
Blue__Balls said:
Guess the million dollar question is: does the club hold the same view?

You never want to wish for an injury, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if, for example, Cripps missed a block of games. Does that open the door for Dow to come in and play a pure contested/clearance focused game, and if he's the primary option does his good VFL form in the same role carry over?

I reckon the only way he stays on the list past this year is if something happens to give him a senior opportunity, and then he steps up and dominates, challenging the MC to find ways to keep him in the side.
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yup, or if cripps is say rested against hawks
 
windows1 said:
May I pop in and offer my Dow views. I think he is both improving AND not hard done by. I’m not sure there’s a spot for Hewitt in our best midfield let alone Dow right now.

BUT I also believe his (positive) trendline on his weaknesses are heading to him having a very solid AFL career.

His running is DEF getting better. His run to receive in link up play is def getting better. His intensity is higher. Tackling better. Pressure acts seem better. Defensive running to cover space better.

He’s still fading a bit late in games which sees him fall off a chase more than you’d like. Kicking is still Ed Curnow like. But he’s getting closer and closer to neutralising his definciencies.

He doesn’t deserve a game yet.

But his strengths are just phenomenal. He is simply top shelf afl standard at ground ball gets. Hand below knees at pace ridiculously good. Top top shelf. His lateral movement and explosiveness is top top shelf. I couldn’t name 10 players in the afl better at Paddy at the stuff he’s great at.

If he can keep at it and keep at it and continue to close the gaps he will be a long term AFl player.
Click to expand...
Awesome report on Paddy.

Thank you.

Here’s hoping when he does get his chance it’s taken in full.
 
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