Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

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yebach said:
How good is it seeing English getting his pants pulled down by first gamers, geriatrics and journeymen?
Click to expand...
And for the millionth time, he can't have been all that bad last year given he was literally deemed All-Australian.

Whether or not he is as apparently physical in some random ruck contest and how that flows on to all other elements of the game that helps teams win or lose is far less important than modern footy. It's like people are taking their assessments of rucks from the era of Polly Farmer, Gary Dempsey and John Nicholls even though the game is completely different.

There's no point having good discussion on this forum if people are suggesting that Jordon Sweet is a comparable footballer to Tim English, or that either can play key forward anywhere near as well that either can play in the ruck, or whatever. It's just pointless. People wanting to be obtuse for the sake of it.
 
threenewpadlocks said:
And for the millionth time, he can't have been all that bad last year given he was literally deemed All-Australian.

Whether or not he is as apparently physical in some random ruck contest and how that flows on to all other elements of the game that helps teams win or lose is far less important than modern footy. It's like people are taking their assessments of rucks from the era of Polly Farmer, Gary Dempsey and John Nicholls even though the game is completely different.

There's no point having good discussion on this forum if people are suggesting that Jordon Sweet is a comparable footballer to Tim English, or that either can play key forward anywhere near as well that either can play in the ruck, or whatever. It's just pointless. People wanting to be obtuse for the sake of it.
Click to expand...
It was about Sweet V Lobb.
 

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yebach said:
How good is it seeing English getting his pants pulled down by first gamers, geriatrics and journeymen?
Click to expand...

English had a good game overall , in fact maybe in our best 6 ?
but he is just a crap ruckman .
I know Charlie doesn’t agree with me .
Ruckman have been important since the game began. It’s one position you can’t always just apply stats too for their influence on the game.

I almost feel sorry for him , cause if he wasn’t 210 cm he wouldn’t have to ruck 😳
 

RALPHY’S 30 FREE AGENTS TO WATCH​

CAMERON ZURHAAR (NORTH MELBOURNE)
His manager has made it clear that Zurhaar has a decision to make. His teammates want him to stay, but he is the definition of noncommittal. Bounced back with three goals against Adelaide after four goals in his first five games. He’s very much on the table for a rival, with his good mate Ben McKay saying post-Anzac Day he was sure Essendon would be interested.
As McKay said, making a pitch to his former teammate is above his pay grade, but if the Roos remain uncompetitive, it would be surprising if Zurhaar stays. But surely no one offers him the deal to trigger first-round compensation and another top-five pick.

Zurhaar could be the latest to leave the Roos. (Photo by Dylan Burns/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
HUGH MCCLUGGAGE (BRISBANE)
The Lions have the cap space, have offered him a six-year deal and believe he will stay after he told this masthead in the pre-season it was his preferred outcome. But given rivals are also offering six-plus years at $1.3m, he might have to accept seven figures less over the life of the deal to stay. It’s still not likely to be enough to move the needle, so would a club like St Kilda throw him $1.4m-$1.5m a year to extract him? Make it a $9m deal over six years.
His year has just been solid – 37th of all midfielders and 63rd of all players in the league.

McCluggage will command big money. Pic: Michael Klein
JARROD BERRY (BRISBANE)
Has an offer in front of him, but Berry is an inside midfielder playing wing with a bit of inside action. His contested possession rate is elite, but his kicking is below average as a wingman even tried in defence earlier in the year after Keidean Coleman’s ACL tear. After missing the top 10 in the best-and-fairest last year, would a rival make a sizeable play for Berry to help their centre square team? With Will Ashcroft back as early as round 10 and brother Levi coming in November, would the Lions match a bid? Perhaps not.

Berry has been a solid contributor at Essendon. (Photo by Russell Freeman/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
BLAKE HARDWICK (HAWTHORN)
One Hawk who can truly put his hand up and say he’s given his all this year, playing both forward and back. Four goals against Collingwood, but plenty of time being flicked to both ends. Contract talks have started and you’d expect him to stay the course given he is a restricted free agent, which means he’s already in the top 10 pay rankings at the Hawthorn. At age 27 he would want a four-or-more year deal.
Hardwick and the Hawks are in discussions on a new deal. Pic: Michael Klein
OLIVER FLORENT (SYDNEY)
Contract talks have started with his management at Connor Sports. As an unrestricted free agent (outside the top 10 in pay at the club), Florent will be seeking a hefty pay rise, but as a durable running flanker coming off a 140-ranking point, 28-disposal and seven-score involvement game, he has timed those contract discussions well.

Florent has been a key cog at Sydney. Pic: Michael Klein
ANDREW MCGRATH (ESSENDON)
The Dons will reward McGrath as one of their “glue guys” with a six-year deal, which he told this masthead this week he was happy to sign. Essendon is still resisting putting CBA contract clauses in their deals to reflect the future rise in the salary cap. The parties are still haggling, but McGrath should expect a deal well in excess of $800,000 a year.

McGrath has been superb down back for Essendon. (Photo by Dylan Burns/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
JACK GRAHAM (RICHMOND)
Is he exactly the kind of selfless hard-running prototype midfielder for the transition game a club would love to get its hands on, or is he just a handy type? Graham racked-up 15 tackles in his first two games, in a year interrupted by a quadricep issue, but hasn’t hit 20 possessions in any of his three games. He ranks below average for disposals, contested possessions, clearances, and scoreboard impact and poor for kicking. They are unflattering numbers.
But with clubs like the Crows desperate to lure free agents home to Adelaide, they will have to be interested in him to bulk-up their midfield.

Graham has had a tough start to the season. (Photo by Dylan Burns/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
ELLIOT YEO (WEST COAST)
Was very keen to sign a two-year deal, which was in the works before new list boss Matt Clarke arrived at West Coast. That still seems on track, even as clubs who asked about him last year step up the chase. If the Eagles lost him as a 31-year-old on a three-year deal elsewhere, their compensation might be second-round at best. That won’t be enough given his importance in helping midfielders Harley Reid and Reuben Ginbey grow, so the only option that makes any sense is a sign-and-trade where the Eagles lock him away, then wait for insane offers inside the top 12 picks. If someone is desperate enough to pay him the money to consider a trade, then it’s his decision to stay or go.

Yeo is back to his best. (Photo by Daniel Carson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
HARRY PERRYMAN (GWS GIANTS)
Port Adelaide is keen on the general defender, who in some sides might play midfield, but has been used in the backline for the Giants under Adam Kingsley. He wants to stay, but after signing a pair of two-year deals, would a rival turn its head with a long-term deal on reasonable money? The Power certainly has the cap space and needs another mid-sized defender in a week when they dropped Ryan Burton. Perryman faces the free-agency conundrum – stay for less at a club he loves, or use the privilege of eight years’ service to jump ship to shore up his financial future.

Perryman is being chased by the Power. (Photo by Mark Metcalfe/AFL Photos/via Getty Images )
ISAAC CUMMING (GWS GIANTS)
Another Giants defender keen to stay, with clubs like Gold Coast interested in his services.
Has pace and elite kicking skills, which don’t always stand out, given brilliance of Lachie Whitfield and Lachie Ash around him, but his upside is what excites rivals. In 2022 he averaged nearly 550m gained. Another player who would need to be offered a deal of several hundred thousand dollars a year higher than the Giants to consider moving on. Has battled a 2024 calf injury, so is returning through the VFL.

Cumming hasn't been able to get on the field this season. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
JACK HENRY (GEELONG)
Not going anywhere given brother Ollie is an attacking mainstay, but the Cats just wanted to see how his body responded after twin foot issues. A new deal in the offing.

Henry is expected to stay. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
NICK HAYNES (GWS GIANTS)
Another loyalist who won’t want to leave, but after only two games in 2024 (one against the Roos with 36 minutes of game time), Haynes is surplus to requirements. Just racked up 36 possessions against the Roos in the VFL, so he’s still got it, but he turns 32 next month. Would he accept a two-year deal on modest money elsewhere to extend his career? Not sure.

Haynes has not been able to crack the GWS team. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
BEN AINSWORTH (GOLD COAST)
He and his partner are very keen to remain on the Gold Coast, but the Suns do have a reasonably tight cap (with Matt Rowell and Charlie Ballard out of contract next year). So after being paid very well so far across his career, Ainsworth has the choice to stay on good, but not ridiculous money on a new deal – or chase a fortune elsewhere. His free agency status means he will have suitors after a strong start to the year without shooting the lights out – averaging 15 possessions and kicking six goals in seven games.

Ainsworth will have suitors. (Photo by Russell Freeman/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
TIM ENGLISH (WESTERN BULLDOGS)
An enigma. He ranks sixth of all rucks this year and his critics have come hard. As Leigh Matthews said of him last week: “Tim English is a big man playing like a little man. He’s not playing with enough aggression. You can’t have soft big men. He is playing soft”. English responded with 23 touches, six tackles, six clearances and 28 hit-outs and, to be honest, it’s hard to find a suitor for him. The Eagles have three rucks, aren’t in the window and would be cautious about his concussion history. Might not get the very top dollar he wants, but English should stay at the Bulldogs on a six or seven-year deal on seven figures a season.

English will command big money. Pic: Michael Klein
WILL HAYWARD (SYDNEY)
A medium forward with significant interest from rival clubs, including Adelaide, given his free agency status and goal power. Hayward is elite for inside-50 marks and has kicked 11.4 so far this season. He’s not a superstar, but would fit well into Adelaide’s forward line as a consistent lead-up presence and enable the Crows to release Izak Rankine into the midfield.

Adelaide has strong interest in Hayward. Pic: Michael Klein
JOSH BATTLE (ST KILDA)
The Saints are supremely confident Battle will stay, with talks on track for a long-term deal. Elite for disposals and above-average for one-on-one contests, but his intercept game isn’t at the level it has been previously – only four intercept marks in the last three weeks. If Dougal Howard could get back to form, it would release him to fly for marks.

The Saints expect Battle to stay. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
ELLIOTT HIMMELBERG (ADELAIDE)
GWS missed out on the 2024 unrestricted agent last year and the Crows at least played him on the weekend – rewarding them with two goals, 98 ranking points and seven score involvements. Still expect him to get to the Giants alongside brother Harry, but just not sure he would play in the senior side very much.

The Giants chased Himmelberg in 2023. (Photo by Linda Higginson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
MATT TABERNER (FREMANTLE)
Still only 30 and finally putting games together (six goals in four contests). Taberner is a low-possession winner, but hasn’t gone goalless in 2024 so far. If the Dockers’ keep Sean Darcy it’s hard to see where he fits into the Luke Jackson/Jy Amiss/Joel Treacy forward line. He needs to stay fit all year – after his back issues – to be an attractive proposition for rivals.

Taberner is a known goalkicker. (Photo by Paul Kane/Getty Images)
BAILEY BANFIELD (FREMANTLE)
An extremely bright start to the year after only 14 games in 2023, kicking nine goals to go with 16 touches a game. The hero against the Dogs with three goals, Banfield is keen to stay in Perth, but told Fox Footy on the weekend that talks with the Dockers were yet to kick off.

Banfield was the hero in round 7. (Photo by Will Russell/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
DUSTIN MARTIN (RICHMOND)
Do whatever makes you happy, Dusty. No suitors yet. Gold Coast a little interested, but aware that he might be happy to stay at Punt Rd or retire. It would help if he wouldn’t be seen to want top-dollar to play elsewhere. Will sit down with manager Ralph Carr at season’s end to work through his future.

Where does Dusty play in 2025? (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
BRANDAN PARFITT (GEELONG)
Quieter on the weekend after a five-week hot streak where he averaged five clearances and eight tackles a game. As an unrestricted free agent, Parfitt would be mad not to want to shore-up his financial future. Last year it was apparent with tight list sizes that he didn’t have suitors, but he will this year. How much will he sacrifice to stay at the Cats?

Parfitt has worked his way back into the Geelong team. (Photo by Albert Perez/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
TYSON STENGLE (GEELONG)
The Cats are keen to lock Stengle away and after 12 goals in his first seven games in 2024, he has the form on the board to start negotiations. He will want to set himself up financially and Geelong will want to offer a responsible deal, so it might take some time to broker. Not going anywhere.

Stengle has made a strong start to 2024. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
CONOR NASH (HAWTHORN)
The unrestricted free agent wants to stay at the Hawks, but has put talks on hold with his manager Peter Lenton until mid-season. Nash is still putting up huge tackling numbers (six per game) and averaging 4.9 clearances. The Hawks have so much salary cap space they would be crazy to low-ball him and allow him to consider a rival deal.

Nash has delayed talks. Pic: Michael Klein
ADAM TOMLINSON (MELBOURNE)
Unlucky to lose his spot after nine spoils and eight intercept possessions in the first game of the season against Sydney and now putting up huge VFL numbers. As an unrestricted free agent, a rival would be silly not to swoop for Tomlinson. His latest VFL game? 38 possessions, six intercept marks, 17 intercept possessions, 15 marks. And he’s only 30.

Tomlinson is out of the Dees team. (Photo by Matt King/AFL Photos/Getty Images)
TOM MCDONALD (MELBOURNE)
Admits he came into 2024 aware it could be his last season. More likely to sign a one-year deal or retire than play elsewhere. But in a market with so few key defenders, will never go out of style.

McDonald may be in his last year. (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
TRENT MCKENZIE (PORT ADELAIDE)
Has only played a single SANFL game this year due to injury and the club’s inclusion of Brandon Zerk-Thatcher and Esava Ratugolea means others have gone past him at the Power. He’s 32, but played 19 games last season, and a club like North Melbourne could do worse than ask about McKenzie if he is deemed surplus to requirements at Alberton.
McKenzie (R) in the SANFL. (Photo by Mark Brake/Getty Images)
DION PRESTIA (RICHMOND)
More likely to sign a one-year deal at the Tigers, given his many injury issues of late.

Dion Prestia has continued to battle injury. (Photo by Dylan Burns/AFL Photos via Getty Images)
LEWIS MELICAN (SYDNEY)
A strong season so far, after only eight games due to hamstring issues last year. Melican is 27 and will be keen to stick around in Sydney to add to his tally of 67 games.

Melican has been steadfast for the Swans. (Photo by Quinn Rooney/Getty Images)
LIAM DUGGAN (WEST COAST)

More Coverage​


The Eagles’ co-captain has finished top-five in the best-and-fairest in three of the past four seasons. He will be looking for a five-year deal in excess of $800,000 to stay.

Duggan will be hunting a big deal. (Photo by Matt Roberts/AFL Photos/via Getty Images )
JASON JOHANNISEN (WESTERN BULLDOGS)
Had a sneaky-good start to the season, averaging 23 possessions and 76 per cent kicking efficiency. The 31-year-old is worthy of another one-year deal, with clubs always looking for rebounding backs.
 
How many of those defending English saying he’s All-Australian are also critics of the Brownlow and other awards? Is it only one that’s rigged/ poorly ran? Why not all?
 
CarnTheScray said:
How many of those defending English saying he’s All-Australian are also critics of the Brownlow and other awards? Is it only one that’s rigged/ poorly ran? Why not all?
Click to expand...
Yes, a unique game-by-game voting system decided upon by three individuals in a short period of time after the game and with a weird view of the game at the time is exactly the same as a large number of professionals who have limitless time to construct a team from all angles. The same.
 
King Harold said:
English had a good game overall , in fact maybe in our best 6 ?
but he is just a crap ruckman .
I know Charlie doesn’t agree with me .
Ruckman have been important since the game began. It’s one position you can’t always just apply stats too for their influence on the game.

I almost feel sorry for him , cause if he wasn’t 210 cm he wouldn’t have to ruck 😳
Click to expand...

Yep, I don’t agree he’s crap.

He’s having a poor year re hit outs, yet still ranks 8th for total from 4th highest RC attendances. Ranks 2nd for all ruckman for hit outs to advantage rate. And has a higher hit out win percentage than a handful of players that are regularly noted in here as being a player we should target as a ruck replacement.

The modern ruck role is more than just what a player can do in the ruck contest, hence players like Cox, Gawn and Grundy have been hailed as the best across the last 20 years.

If hit outs were such an important marker for ruckman, then Sweet would be touted as one of the games greats. Instead, he’s struggled for games at Port Adelaide after struggling for games with us.

Stating English is a crap ruckman, you’re completely ignoring the majority of what is important about the role.
 
Charlie Bucket said:
How good would it be seeing Sweet running around this year in our best 22. Zero marks and zero impact outside the ruck contests.

Would be a joy to watch.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if you watched Sweet's game on the weekend but he had enormous impact. 6 tackles & 6 1%'s and beat an elite ruckman in Marshall. There were several things to his game on the weekend that surprised me.

He's the complete polar opposite to English in literally every aspect of the game. If English & Bevo were on board, we could've made it work and played both but it was not to be. That ship has sailed.
 
King Harold said:
English had a good game overall , in fact maybe in our best 6 ?
but he is just a crap ruckman .
I know Charlie doesn’t agree with me .
Ruckman have been important since the game began. It’s one position you can’t always just apply stats too for their influence on the game.

I almost feel sorry for him , cause if he wasn’t 210 cm he wouldn’t have to ruck 😳
Click to expand...
Yeah. We're clearly asking for too much when we want a ruckman that can actually ruck.
If we want another midfielder why not just play Macrae as the ruck. English can take Buku's spot as the interceptor. ( I hope Bevo isn't reading this.)
 

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Golden_6 said:
I'm not sure if you watched Sweet's game on the weekend but he had enormous impact. 6 tackles & 6 1%'s and beat an elite ruckman in Marshall. There were several things to his game on the weekend that surprised me.

He's the complete polar opposite to English in literally every aspect of the game. If English & Bevo were on board, we could've made it work and played both but it was not to be. That ship has sailed.
Click to expand...
Let's not confuse Charlie with reason and logic.
It makes him angry.
 
Golden_6 said:
I'm not sure if you watched Sweet's game on the weekend but he had enormous impact. 6 tackles & 6 1%'s and beat an elite ruckman in Marshall. There were several things to his game on the weekend that surprised me.

He's the complete polar opposite to English in literally every aspect of the game. If English & Bevo were on board, we could've made it work and played both but it was not to be. That ship has sailed.
Click to expand...

If 6 tackles and not much else is enormous impact, then I’m expecting English’s game on Saturday night to net him 6 Brownlow votes.
 
Charlie Bucket said:
Nek minut
Click to expand...
charlie murphy fuck yo couch GIF
 
Gee, some tempting free agents coming up.

Florent, Berry, Cummings, Stengle.

Berry especially might be a Moneyball inside mid.

Don't @ me.

I feel they would all be best 22.
 
yebach said:
It was about Sweet V Lobb.
Click to expand...
It's such a bizarre thing to even talk about though, as that's not what you need to be comparing.

What needs to be compared is Sweet to English as a ruck, and then compare English to Lobb as a forward. It's a small sample size, the only time we can definitively say English has been a forward primarily are the games where he's played with either Jordon Sweet or Stefan Martin.

As a pure ruck, Sweet averages:
8 disposals
3.8 score involvements
1.8 clearances
3.5 contested possessions
22.46 hit outs
34% hit out to advantage (7.6 hit outs per game)
2.08 marks per game
0.15 goals per game
1.46 inside 50s

As a pure ruck, English averages:
15.3 disposals
4.8 score involvements
2.6 clearances
7.2 contested possessions
20.79 hit outs
31.3% hit out to advantage (6.4 hit outs per game)
4.96 marks per game
0.58 goals per game
2.31 inside 50s

So in this instance, if you prefer Sweet to English in the ruck, you're really saying is you'd rather the extra 1.2 hit outs to advantage, at the expense of the rest, because the facts are English beats Sweet in every other measure listed above as a ruckman.

Now let's do the exercise where we compare Tim English the forward/ruck to Rory Lobb the forward/ruck - which is something we'd get if we had Sweet playing as the pure ruck and we never got Rory.

In games where English has been forward/ruck (the games where he and either Sweet or Stef Martin have played - admittedly a small sample size but these are rounds 1-6, 11, 12, PF and GF in 2021 as well as rounds 18 and 22 in 2022), English averages:
12.5 disposals
1 goal
2 tackles
5 marks
4.3 score involvements
12.6 hit outs

As a forward ruck, Rory Lobb averages:
11 disposals
1 goal
2 tackles
4 marks
1.7 score involvements
9.3 hit outs

The fact of the matter is, Tim English is just a bit better than Rory Lobb in the forward ruck role on the small sample size we have, no doubt about that, but the advantages there are well and truly lost in what we lose by moving English out of the ruck.
 
Bald said:
It's such a bizarre thing to even talk about though, as that's not what you need to be comparing.

What needs to be compared is Sweet to English as a ruck, and then compare English to Lobb as a forward. It's a small sample size, the only time we can definitively say English has been a forward primarily are the games where he's played with either Jordon Sweet or Stefan Martin.

As a pure ruck, Sweet averages:
8 disposals
3.8 score involvements
1.8 clearances
3.5 contested possessions
22.46 hit outs
34% hit out to advantage (7.6 hit outs per game)
2.08 marks per game
0.15 goals per game
1.46 inside 50s

As a pure ruck, English averages:
15.3 disposals
4.8 score involvements
2.6 clearances
7.2 contested possessions
20.79 hit outs
31.3% hit out to advantage (6.4 hit outs per game)
4.96 marks per game
0.58 goals per game
2.31 inside 50s

So in this instance, if you prefer Sweet to English in the ruck, you're really saying is you'd rather the extra 1.2 hit outs to advantage, at the expense of the rest, because the facts are English beats Sweet in every other measure listed above as a ruckman.

Now let's do the exercise where we compare Tim English the forward/ruck to Rory Lobb the forward/ruck - which is something we'd get if we had Sweet playing as the pure ruck and we never got Rory.

In games where English has been forward/ruck (the games where he and either Sweet or Stef Martin have played - admittedly a small sample size but these are rounds 1-6, 11, 12, PF and GF in 2021 as well as rounds 18 and 22 in 2022), English averages:
12.5 disposals
1 goal
2 tackles
5 marks
4.3 score involvements
12.6 hit outs

As a forward ruck, Rory Lobb averages:
11 disposals
1 goal
2 tackles
4 marks
1.7 score involvements
9.3 hit outs

The fact of the matter is, Tim English is just a bit better than Rory Lobb in the forward ruck role on the small sample size we have, no doubt about that, but the advantages there are well and truly lost in what we lose by moving English out of the ruck.
Click to expand...
No. What I was saying is that we'd be better off with Sweet & English and 2 second round picks, rather than Lobb & English and no second round picks.
Also, I think as an actual ruckman who's job it is to win hitouts and protect his onballers, Sweet does this better.
Remember, Bevo gifted English about 40 games at the beginning of his career. Sweet was never given the same opportunity to develop.
 
I’d give me left nut for Jack Henry.
 
adogsfan5 said:
I’d give me left nut for Jack Henry.
Click to expand...
Yep, I'd give your left nut for him too. Maybe even your right one.

Your selflessness (and nutlessness) is greatly appreciated! :thumbsupemoji:
 
English is averaging over 9 Hitouts to Advantage a game this year. Only 5 players who have played 3 games or more are averaging higher. He's above Nankervis, Witts, Xerri, McInerney, Pittonett and Marshall among other first choice rucks.

He's clearly not the most physical ruck but I think some of the commentary here is based on "the vibe" from how he was years ago. He's an average ruck, with extremely good skills and a decent mark.
 
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