Themanbun's Midfield Minute

[Moti]

I think they are aware of the basics and it's not too hard to get down pat. Some of these guys however, were the midfield stud at junior level. You can't run tags there, and typically they structure a midfield at that level in a way that lets the stud ball hunt, so they're never facing any consequences for breaking midfield structures. But you need to leave your ego at the door when you hit AFL level, and that's what separates the Bonts, Cripps, Merretts, Serongs, etc. from the B graders.

So, IMO it's a mental concentration/application thing and that is applying your brain hard enough, for long enough, to compete at AFL level. You could see after that first clearance that Powell was trying to do the right thing for example, even if he caught himself doing the wrong thing. But it's been a consistent theme that he's just hit/miss at doing what his role demands of him.

That clearance where LDU completely breaks his sweeper position and tried to shark the tap, and then just elects not to shut down Essendon's outlets when he doesn't win the ball lend me towards a not so generous interpretation.

Compare that to Horne-Francis last week who, when we were getting a run on, doubled up his efforts and laid two tackles in 5-10 seconds to shut down our outlets and prevent an exit out the front, and you can see why we struggle to defend stoppages if we don't win the ball compared to other sides.

Realistically though, who is gonna drop our 'best' players for not holding shape? They won't face any repercussions for this stuff so the coaches are kind of coaching with one arm behind their back so to speak.

Simpkin is generally pretty good at his role at a bounce or stoppage.

JHF can cover ground significantly better than all but Wardlaw. We just don't have anyone other than George that can do that.

 

[Moti]

I think they are aware of the basics and it's not too hard to get down pat. Some of these guys however, were the midfield stud at junior level. You can't run tags there, and typically they structure a midfield at that level in a way that lets the stud ball hunt, so they're never facing any consequences for breaking midfield structures. But you need to leave your ego at the door when you hit AFL level, and that's what separates the Bonts, Cripps, Merretts, Serongs, etc. from the B graders.

So, IMO it's a mental concentration/application thing and that is applying your brain hard enough, for long enough, to compete at AFL level. You could see after that first clearance that Powell was trying to do the right thing for example, even if he caught himself doing the wrong thing. But it's been a consistent theme that he's just hit/miss at doing what his role demands of him.

That clearance where LDU completely breaks his sweeper position and tried to shark the tap, and then just elects not to shut down Essendon's outlets when he doesn't win the ball lend me towards a not so generous interpretation.

Compare that to Horne-Francis last week who, when we were getting a run on, doubled up his efforts and laid two tackles in 5-10 seconds to shut down our outlets and prevent an exit out the front, and you can see why we struggle to defend stoppages if we don't win the ball compared to other sides.

Realistically though, who is gonna drop our 'best' players for not holding shape? They won't face any repercussions for this stuff so the coaches are kind of coaching with one arm behind their back so to speak.

Simpkin is generally pretty good at his role at a bounce or stoppage.

Why doesn't the defensive and clearane beast in Will play the sweeper role? Surely the best defensive player in our team with the cleanest skills would suit the role?

 

[Themanbun]

JHF can cover ground significantly better than all but Wardlaw. We just don't have anyone other than George that can do that.

We never know if they don't bother, though.

Why doesn't the defensive and clearane beast in Will play the sweeper role? Surely the best defensive player in our team with the cleanest skills would suit the role?

Will more often than not plays as the hit-to but occasionally plays sweeper. In earlier matches this year he didn't set the world on fire there, he didn't hold structure well and often dump kicked, much like Powell. He seems to play better when he is the hit-to, feeding it out. Just my two cents.

 

[Moti]

We never know if they don't bother, though.



Will more often than not plays as the hit-to but occasionally plays sweeper. In earlier matches this year he didn't set the world on fire there, he didn't hold structure well and often dump kicked, much like Powell. He seems to play better when he is the hit-to, feeding it out. Just my two cents.

JHF does love a good tackle, but the lack of athleticism always stands out for me with our mids.

So do we have anyone who is suited to the sweeper role?

Also, interested in your thoughts on Colby. I watched every clearance from the weekend again and our "dump kicks" seem to result more from a lack of options and defensive pressure than the old Adam Simpson throw it on the boot. If we had Colby in there offering the attacking option, do you think we would be more effective? Considering we have been pretty good at winning clearances, surely we can roll the dice a little with his lack of defensive prowess.

 

[TruRoo]

Not really related to this thread TMB, but I saw your post on the Dogs' board about Bont's influence, and it was basically the first comment in his player thread since their flag. That's unfathomable. Where the **** do they discuss their players on there, or are they too busy huffing ethanol

There's not much to comment on when he's the best player in the game...

Post #808 -

Bont is back from injury

Post #809 -

Yep, Marcus was his usual self after a long lay-off -32d, 11i50s, 9 tck, 3 goals and 3 assists.

Post #810 -

Yeah, he was pretty good

Post #811 -

He has another gear though, but we have too many quality mids

Yeah, but if we had him, it'd go something like:

'**** he's good'

'Missed him today'

'I wonder what his Mum does for a living'

'Dim sims are demonstrably better when steamed'

'Butcher Bailey could learn a thing or two from him'


And this cycle would continue for two entire threads and 678 pages in total.

We're blessed on this board.

I genuinely felt like I'd wandered into the twilight zone trying to find the appropriate place to post it.

I looked and they have this thread https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...off-your-shoes-and-pay-your-respects.1067544/

It has 4K posts but none since November and it had dropped to the fifth page

Must be boring discussing one of the best players to have played the game from 2010 onwards.

 

[Themanbun]

JHF does love a good tackle, but the lack of athleticism always stands out for me with our mids.

So do we have anyone who is suited to the sweeper role?

Also, interested in your thoughts on Colby. I watched every clearance from the weekend again and our "dump kicks" seem to result more from a lack of options and defensive pressure than the old Adam Simpson throw it on the boot. If we had Colby in there offering the attacking option, do you think we would be more effective? Considering we have been pretty good at winning clearances, surely we can roll the dice a little with his lack of defensive prowess.

I think Jy is our best sweeper at the moment if we're looking to protect the exit. We don't however have someone like George Hewett who is one of the best at it going around.

He's intelligent enough, has a defensive edge, and is quick enough to close with speed. His disposal however means he's not as good at the quarterbacking that a sweeper often does.

With the dump kicks it's a bit of both. We have a lot of blokes who really don't like just absorbing a tackle and taking the heat. Guys whose disposal we often talk up. It's made worse when they have no option to give to, which is a structure/stoppage intelligence thing.

A small change Clarko has made that I love is having Sheezel coming off the back of the square, particularly at centre bounces. It means if we go backwards in the contest, our sweeper has an option and allows us to play a more defensively minded one. It also can break the oppo's setup and allow for an overlap handball. Unfortunately Daniel hasn't been on the same page and his man has often been able to pressure Sheez, which I was really disappointed with on the weekend.

I was keen on Colby getting midfield rotations at the start of the year but having watched him this year I don't think he's there yet. He often gets caught out in the wrong position when coming up to the stoppage as the half forward or skinny side winger. We could play him in that Sheezel role described above though.

 

[Themanbun]

well said, two great analysts, with an established figure in Rick18 and the midfield specialist Themanbun dissecting the stoppages

I was at the ground, and I'm interested in the thoughts of both on why Essendon were able to beat us on the outside in the first quarter, a period that really determined the game.

Essendon were good enough to switch for space, and with runners moving into it, they were able to move the ball quickly. So credit to them, but those offensive passages followed either contest wins or bad turnovers.

Interested on what you'll have to say around that period in the game

Hey mate, just getting back to this.

From what I can see, the Bombers ran with an unusual setup, playing two extras at the back of the stoppage. Typically you would run a half forward up to be part of the 'diamond' setup, and then you would have your skinny side wing at the back of a stoppage but biased toward protecting the corridor. Effectively a sweeper. Your fat side winger is out of the stoppage protecting the corridor.

Essendon ran two extras up. One from half forward (Caleb Daniel's man), and then they rolled Nic Martin up from the backline (or he may have been another half forward, I can't tell where he started) or occasionally McGrath as well to sit as a sweeper behind the skinny side wing, effectively being the real quarterback at the back of the stoppage, one layer behind all the pressure. Toward the end of the first quarter Daniel starting coming up to the stoppage to equalise but it still wasn't working for us.

We for the first time this year played an extra defensive spare at the start of the first, which I don't think is a bad move, but they kept getting sucked into the contest and Essendon were excellent at using Martin to turn inboard and out the other side. They did this really well.

Actually pretty smart from Braddles.

After 1/4 time, Clarko adjusted in a simple way I wouldn't have considered, which allowed us to take advantage theoretically. He didn't man up the sweeper. He moved our hit-to 2-4 metres to the defensive side (instead of splitting the middle) and had Xerri use his ruck dominance to put it to the defensive side of the stoppage and had us exit out the back of the stoppage with numbers, effectively making their second sweeper useless and leaving Essendon a man down on transition.

 

[TruRoo]

Themanbun looking at your Bont analysis

Sorry to intrude but in analysing some midfield stats I came across a few that show just how insanely good this bloke is.

In his 2 games so far The Bont has had first possession from a hitout 17 times (average 8.5 per game) and him getting first hands on it has resulted in a clearance every single time. 100% hit rate.

For context, the Serongs, Cripps, etc. of the world normally average 6.5-8 and about 80-85%.

What's even more insane is that only 1 of the 17 first possessions has been a gather from a hitout to advantage. Most of the others are at about 30-50%.

Meaning this bloke has sharked/contested for first possession the ball 16 times and resulted in a clearance every single time. He's not even your hit-to mid and he's still winning it first.

That is insane.

How do our main mids measure up vs taps from the opposition?

 

[Themanbun]

Themanbun looking at your Bont analysis




How do our main mids measure up vs taps from the opposition?

Can't get any stats for taps from the oppo, but in terms of what our players actually get, here are the hitout gather stats in addition to what I posted in the below post.

LDU 3.1 per game
Wardlaw 2.5 per game
Parker 2.5 per game
Simpkin 1.6 per game
Phillips 1.5 per game
Powell 1.4 per game
Sheezel 0.8 per game

So you can use that stat, subtracted from their '1st posession' stat, to work out how many times they win first possession from sharking. It's rough but gives an indication.

Interesting stat - first possession to clearance.

Overall
North Melbourne is 17th in the league for how frequently our opponent turns a 1st possession into a clearance - at 80.4%. Meaning if we don't get first hands on it, we are the second worst for allowing the opposition to exit with a clearance.

We are the 10th in the league for turning our own first possession into a clearance, at 75.2%.

Port are 13th in the league, at 74.3% for how many first possessions they turn into a clearance. And they are 13th for how often they let their opposition turn a first possession into clearance, at 76.3%.

For reference, we are second in the league for actually getting first possession - basically meaning Xerri gets it to our players a lot, and our players are excellent at gathering the ball. But something in the system means we struggle to turn it into clearance, and we struggle even more at preventing a clearance when we don't get first hands to it.

North Melbourne vs Port
North: 63.8%
Port: 76.2%

Probably backs up the eye test. It felt like we were slightly better than usual defensively at stoppage/bounce, but it also felt like Port were really strong defensively around the clearance and were able to turn our 1st possession into a stoppage or even their own clearance.

How effective are our players at turning first possession into clearance?
Stats from Wheelo below.

Note this stat should be taken with a lot of caution if you're using it to pot certain players - a successful clearance after first possession is often a sign of a system rather than an individual, but our numbers are interesting regardless.

My main takeaway is that as noted elsewhere, we've been sharing the midfield roles around more than previous years.


View attachment 2298635

However, for what it's worth:

Bontempelli (2 matches): 8.5/100% clearance rate
Serong: 9.1/85.9%
Rowell: 8.8/84.9%
Cripps: 7.4/84.6%
Dangerfield: 3.3/83.3%
Butters: 7.8/74.2%

 

[Merlin007]

Hey mate, just getting back to this.

From what I can see, the Bombers ran with an unusual setup, playing two extras at the back of the stoppage. Typically you would run a half forward up to be part of the 'diamond' setup, and then you would have your skinny side wing at the back of a stoppage but biased toward protecting the corridor. Effectively a sweeper. Your fat side winger is out of the stoppage protecting the corridor.

Essendon ran two extras up. One from half forward (Caleb Daniel's man), and then they rolled Nic Martin up from the backline (or he may have been another half forward, I can't tell where he started) or occasionally McGrath as well to sit as a sweeper behind the skinny side wing, effectively being the real quarterback at the back of the stoppage, one layer behind all the pressure. Toward the end of the first quarter Daniel starting coming up to the stoppage to equalise but it still wasn't working for us.

We for the first time this year played an extra defensive spare at the start of the first, which I don't think is a bad move, but they kept getting sucked into the contest and Essendon were excellent at using Martin to turn inboard and out the other side. They did this really well.

Actually pretty smart from Braddles.

After 1/4 time, Clarko adjusted in a simple way I wouldn't have considered, which allowed us to take advantage theoretically. He didn't man up the sweeper. He moved our hit-to 2-4 metres to the defensive side (instead of splitting the middle) and had Xerri use his ruck dominance to put it to the defensive side of the stoppage and had us exit out the back of the stoppage with numbers, effectively making their second sweeper useless and leaving Essendon a man down on transition.

thanks for taking the time to consider that particular period in the game.

Clarko's move helps to explain a more competitive effort, but we can't keep going 6 goals down in the first quarter and expect to haul in the difference.

 

[kanga kanga kanga]

our midfield is destroying brisbanes

 

[Themanbun]

our midfield is destroying brisbanes

I missed the first half but we appear to be using the back of the stoppage really well

 

[Midas]

Have the oppo scored from the first CB the last five games in a row?

 

[giantroo]

 

[Skarrz]

Interesting how much more competitive we are with sheez out of the midfield

 

[TruRoo]

Interesting how much more competitive we are with sheez out of the midfield

A Ferrari is better driven on the open road than in traffic.

 

[shintemaster]

Interesting how much more competitive we are with sheez out of the midfield

There's room for him there down the track - with the right mix around him - but yeah it is very noticeable. We don't have enough defensive pressure to carry him in there at the moment.

 

[Themanbun]

Will probably be a bit slow this week which is disappointing given it'll be a fun one to review.

 

[Passmore]

Will probably be a bit slow this week which is disappointing given it'll be a fun one to review.

.

 

[Chadwiko]

Will probably be a bit slow this week which is disappointing given it'll be a fun one to review.

This is just part of your wider conspiracy to protect Tom Powell!!!111111222

 

[Themanbun]

This is just part of your wider conspiracy to protect Tom Powell!!!111111222

 

[Themanbun]

I will say though Chadwiko - I've only reviewed the second half but I can't really find this tag of Neale people are talking about yet.

 

[Chadwiko]

I will say though Chadwiko - I've only reviewed the second half but I can't really find this tag of Neale people are talking about yet.

Yeah watching the game I certainly didn't think Powell was playing a tagging role. The SEN commentators made multiple comments throughout the game about how they thought it was strange we weren't playing a "run-with" role on Neale.

 

[Moti]

Yeah watching the game I certainly didn't think Powell was playing a tagging role. The SEN commentators made multiple comments throughout the game about how they thought it was strange we weren't playing a "run-with" role on Neale.

We rotated players on him, I thought. Powell was one but Wardlaw was there in the 2nd. Powell was mainly matched against Dunkley and McCluggage

 

[archereleven]

No tag. Neale was just shit scared of getting in Gorgeous' way...

I thought we were in for a very long day after the first centre bounce and LDU got sucked in instead of holding his ground and brissy exited the front.

Handball, kick, spoil, goal