Religion Bondi shooting - 16 confirmed dead at Jewish event

[schneebly111]

He said that people (like Pauline) mocking the religion increase the chances of an attack. He is trying to assign SOME culpability to people who dislike Islam.

I understand perfectly well what he’s saying. He wouldn’t say it about other groups.

I repeated what Liberal Senator George Brandis, the AFP and ASIO said. Take it up with them

 

[CM86]

We also need to be honest enough to have an open discussion about integration, values, and risk, including the reality of Islamist extremism as an ideology that rejects core democratic norms. Australia is running record levels of immigration, and with that comes a responsibility to assess how well our systems are managing integration at scale. Not just for one community, but across many cohorts. This isn’t about Palestinians or Arabs alone. It spans multiple regions and backgrounds, including parts of Africa and the Middle East, where extremist networks and online propaganda have proven reach. Ignoring that complexity doesn’t make us tolerant, it makes us complacent. A mature society should be able to debate acceptable risk, expectations and the effectiveness of screening and asylum support before problems fester, not after tragedy forces the issue.

Australia is not running record levels of immigration.
We had a peak due to global conditions, and it's rapidly reducing to normal levels and lower.

We should be able to have a mature debate about these complexities. But it's not possible when people, yourself included, promote reactionary and false information about what's actually happening.

What's the first area of discussions you'd take in terms of 'acceptable risk' in regards to asylum seekers and immigration?

Do you support more regulation around disinformation? Reduction of hate speech? Government intervention to reduce radicalisation?
Or are you just arguing against immigration from non-Western countries?

Can you understand how your position could be angry, fearful and reactionary? Is there a way that you could look for the results you want, from a different perspective?

 

[ElectricG]

Holy f**k I couldn’t think of a worse take. Nobody has defended the actions or beliefs of Islamic extremists.

They are drawing a distinction between extremists and the majority who had nothing to do with it. It does apply to Nazis and sovcits. Right wingers aren’t kicked out en masse from the country, extreme right wingers (Nazis) are. Those who expressed skepticism about vaccines or government overreach weren’t raided, extreme SovCits were. And similarly the majority of peaceful Muslims weren’t targeted by ASIO or AFP but extremists were.

How can you possibly come up with this take? Unbelievable

People have absolutely defended it. Blaming people other than the perpetrators alleviates them of culpability. This is defending them.

But the distinction is less “extreme beliefs vs moderate beliefs.” It’s more “willing to act vs unwilling”. We still denounce the Nazism and sovcit-ness that exists only within the minds and online ramblings of individuals, rather than trying to just imagine or exaggerate the existence of a benign version of these ideologies.

 

[CM86]

Another example of how Islam is the only topic which can pervert everyone’s sense of right and wrong. What are you even saying? It should mean something to you that being nice to one particular group of people is critically important to prevent them from killing us. Why doesn’t this apply to Nazis and sovcits? We are willing to (rightfully) foster a paternalistic condemnation of their views.

This thread man, it’s all here. The worst and most desperate denials:

• it has nothing to do with immigration
• people who don’t like islam have lots in common with the shooter
• it’s Netanyahu’s fault

Never the fault of those committing the atrocity. Always someone else’s. Normally the victims.

People were blaming Islam before anything was known about these evil, hateful, vicious killers.
It was based on their Middle Eastern appearance.
That's what 'leftists' oppose. Hate based on racial appearances.
I'm against Islam, and religions in general. I'd say that Islam is the worst religion in general. But that in the Western world, Christianity has had more of an impact, and is more of an ongoing threat.


Religions are ideologies. And ideologies aren't stopped by borders, customs or travel.
Immigration is about people, humans, our equals... moving to our country, living with us, and enjoying the life we're all so lucky to have been born into.


We need to act against ideologies, and radicalisations.
Not against humans.

 

[Festerz]

More stories of the bravery of unarmed individuals seriously injured or killed in trying to defend against the attackers at the Hanukkah Festival in Bondi are emerging.

Reuven Morrison who was captured on camera hurling objects at Sajid Akram who was disarmed by Ahmed el-Ahmed, was subsequently shot and killed by Naveed Akram.

Boris and Sofia Gurman were killed attempting to restrain Sajid Akram before he opened fire on the Hanukkah festival.

 

[QuietB]

Do you acknowledge the part immigration played in stopping this event?

Where are we at the moment?

An immigrant and his Australian son attacked some immigrants and their Australian children and an immigrant fruiterer intervened to disarm one of the attacking immigrants.

Meanwhile, immigrants and the sons and daughters of those immigrants are adamant that immigration is the problem.

Indigenous Australians must be shaking their heads.

 

[ElectricG]

People were blaming Islam before anything was known about these evil, hateful, vicious killers.
It was based on their Middle Eastern appearance.
That's what 'leftists' oppose. Hate based on racial appearances.

I think this is getting to the heart of the matter here.

Do you remember many years ago when Tom Cruises was jumping up and down on Oprah’s couch and we were all wondering what’s this Scientology thing we keep hearing about?

Cruise’s bizarre behaviour had our curiosity. The Xenu stuff that South Park brought to our attention had us all having a good laugh. Then some journalists brought to our attention the coercive/blackmailing nature of the religion. At this point we all vomited in unison and agreed yeah, this ain’t it. This sucks. It stinks to high heaven.

Why we haven’t been able to do this with an ideology that’s so much worse is honestly one of the worst moral failings of our time. Progressives being unable to get away from associating it with “non white people” is probably the root of the problem and the elephant in the room tbh.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

actually i found access to the zion bible on my library app - the australian - and there's an article there today where josh frydenberg recaps the past 2 years and then suggests the report from the antisemitism czar....

so i went there and she makes a series of recommendations, which go into every inch of australian society....

re-program the kids in schools
promote jewish culture
more programming in sports
more tests for. those entering australia to discover anti-jewish attitudes and more programming of border people
more work by ASIO
re-program of businesses
putting money into jewish culture
re-program media outlets
censorship of internet.

These are the ones that I can remember. There are about 40, divided into about 10 headings.

I didn see anything about making KFC kosher....

Did she actually use the term “re-program”?
Why do they need reprogramming?

 

[Juddism]

I'll be glad when this week is over and the news cycle has finished...**** me, this getting the country nowhere.

 

[Festerz]

I'll be glad when this week is over and the news cycle has finished...**** me, this getting the country nowhere.

Yep - the news cycle will move on. Lucky for you. There's always Netflix I guess.

Sadly the deep trauma those impacted directly and indirectly by the events at Bondi will not be so lucky.

 

[CM86]

I think this is getting to the heart of the matter here.

Do you remember many years ago when Tom Cruises was jumping up and down on Oprah’s couch and we were all wondering what’s this Scientology thing we keep hearing about?

Cruise’s bizarre behaviour had our curiosity. The Xenu stuff that South Park brought to our attention had us all having a good laugh. Then some journalists brought to our attention the coercive/blackmailing nature of the religion. At this point we all vomited in unison and agreed yeah, this ain’t it. This sucks. It stinks to high heaven.

Why we haven’t been able to do this with an ideology that’s so much worse is honestly one of the worst moral failings of our time. Progressives being unable to get away from associating it with “non white people” is probably the root of the problem and the elephant in the room tbh.

I'm not familiar with the story or the outcomes. But I agree with your position on it.
I can be against Scientology, and be against Islam. While still being accepting of people from the USA and the Middle East.

Again, I'm against their ideologies. The same position you claim to have.
I'm not against the people, which you seem to be.


Being a Muslim, doesn't make you a bad person. Being a Scientologist doesn't make you a bad person.
The ideologies are bad, the actions of the people are bad.
I'll support the victims. I'll insist on making sure that they know that they are welcome here.
They aren't trapped in their ideologies, or the communities pushing the ideologies on them. They aren't hated. If they ever want to escape those communities and those ideologies, we are here to support them and embrace them.
No matter how much they've been taught that they can never leave, because the rest of society hates them, rejects them, and will never accept them...

 

[Sphynx]

Australia is not running record levels of immigration.
We had a peak due to global conditions, and it's rapidly reducing to normal levels and lower.

We should be able to have a mature debate about these complexities. But it's not possible when people, yourself included, promote reactionary and false information about what's actually happening.

What's the first area of discussions you'd take in terms of 'acceptable risk' in regards to asylum seekers and immigration?

Do you support more regulation around disinformation? Reduction of hate speech? Government intervention to reduce radicalisation?
Or are you just arguing against immigration from non-Western countries?

Can you understand how your position could be angry, fearful and reactionary? Is there a way that you could look for the results you want, from a different perspective?

I’m not disputing that net migration has started easing from the post pandemic spike but it’s still accurate to say Australia has been operating at historically high population pressure. As of mid 2024, 31.5% of Australia’s population was overseas born, the highest proportion in over 120 years, even exceeding the 1891 peak. Population growth was 1.6% in the year to March 2025, down from the 2.5% post covid peak, but still high by developed country standards, and around 75% of that growth is being driven by migration.

And let’s be honest this level of intake isn’t being driven by some moral vision of social responsibility, it’s being used as an economic lever to prop up growth and tax revenues after years of weak productivity and policy reform.

That context matters. Even if flows are moderating, the scale and speed of recent growth have placed real strain on housing, infrastructure, social services and integration systems pressures that don’t disappear just because the rate has come off its peak. So when I talk about integration, values and acceptable risk, I’m not making a reactionary claim. I’m saying that when migration is the dominant driver of population growth at historic proportions, it’s reasonable to ask whether our screening and social cohesion frameworks are actually keeping pace.

Part of those frameworks are the Countering Violent Extremism programs by the Home Affairs department, is this being funded to the levels required at the current scale of immigration? Settlement and Integration services and the Adult Migration English Program. Is the Multicultural Policy by DHA still fit for purpose at this scale etc?

 

[ElectricG]

I'm not familiar with the story or the outcomes. But I agree with your position on it.
I can be against Scientology, and be against Islam. While still being accepting of people from the USA and the Middle East.

Again, I'm against their ideologies. The same position you claim to have.
I'm not against the people, which you seem to be.


Being a Muslim, doesn't make you a bad person. Being a Scientologist doesn't make you a bad person.
The ideologies are bad, the actions of the people are bad.
I'll support the victims. I'll insist on making sure that they know that they are welcome here.
They aren't trapped in their ideologies, or the communities pushing the ideologies on them. They aren't hated. If they ever want to escape those communities and those ideologies, we are here to support them and embrace them.
No matter how much they've been taught that they can never leave, because the rest of society hates them, rejects them, and will never accept them...

I take your point, I don’t know if I necessarily agree with it.

You yourself said that Islam is the worst religion. I think we need to adopt a more stern attitude to the topic, like “it stops with me” type initiatives. Our leaders need to demonstrate their knowledge of the fact that the religion is bad. The only thing stopping them is political cowardice.

 

[CM86]

I’m not disputing that net migration has started easing from the post pandemic spike but it’s still accurate to say Australia has been operating at historically high population pressure. As of mid 2024, 31.5% of Australia’s population was overseas born, the highest proportion in over 120 years, even exceeding the 1891 peak. Population growth was 1.6% in the year to March 2025, down from the 2.5% post covid peak, but still high by developed country standards, and around 75% of that growth is being driven by migration.

And let’s be honest this level of intake isn’t being driven by some moral vision of social responsibility, it’s being used as an economic lever to prop up growth and tax revenues after years of weak productivity and policy reform.

That context matters. Even if flows are moderating, the scale and speed of recent growth have placed real strain on housing, infrastructure, social services and integration systems pressures that don’t disappear just because the rate has come off its peak. So when I talk about integration, values and acceptable risk, I’m not making a reactionary claim. I’m saying that when migration is the dominant driver of population growth at historic proportions, it’s reasonable to ask whether our screening and social cohesion frameworks are actually keeping pace.

But none of that has anything to do with this massacre. Right?

I'm not sure if I agree with your numbers on this. I can agree with the reason for immigration. I disagree with how it's impacting housing or social services.


But do you accept that you're talking about very recent immigration aspects, and that that's reactionary. And that you're conflating it with the actions of someone born here decades ago, to a man who immigrated even earlier than that?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

The terrorists were South Asian, not Middle East?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-12-16/philippines-says-bondi-shooters-visited-on-indian-passports

 

[CM86]

I take your point, I don’t know if I necessarily agree with it.

You yourself said that Islam is the worst religion. I think we need to adopt a more stern attitude to the topic, like “it stops with me” type initiatives. Our leaders need to demonstrate their knowledge of the fact that the religion is bad. The only thing stopping them is political cowardice.

I agree. But that's why I'm supportive of things like the social media restriction for kids, banning visas to people like Owens, finding ways to reduce hatespeech, etc.

Because I want to reduce these extremist ideologies, and the radicalisation that comes from it.

 

[Sphynx]

But none of that has anything to do with this massacre. Right?

I'm not sure if I agree with your numbers on this. I can agree with the reason for immigration. I disagree with how it's impacting housing or social services.


But do you accept that you're talking about very recent immigration aspects, and that that's reactionary. And that you're conflating it with the actions of someone born here decades ago, to a man who immigrated even earlier than that?

If you read my earlier post, I said I wasn’t going to comment on the two gunman until there is more information following the outcome of the inquiry.

These comments are about Islamic Extremism in isolation and would have been exactly the same had I made them a week ago.

 

[Sphynx]

The terrorists were South Asian, not Middle East?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-12-16/philippines-says-bondi-shooters-visited-on-indian-passports

I thought it was reported quite early in the reporting that the father was potentially Pakistani, with possible Afghan origins?

Can’t recall if that was ever debunked.

Would seem conceivable he could have had an Indian passport in that case.

 

[CM86]

If you read my earlier post, I said I wasn’t going to comment on the two gunman until there is more information following the outcome of the inquiry.

These comments are about Islamic Extremism in isolation and would have been exactly the same had I made them a week ago.

I've only seen a few posts throughout this thread.

But this thread is specifically about the horrific massacre.
And you're talking about immigration.
If that isn't you commenting on the gunmen, what is it?

And again, I'm with you in opposing Islamic extremism. I want to work on ways to prevent the growth and spread of these ideologies. And they aren't stopped by borders.

So why are you talking about 2023-24 immigration spikes in this thread? If it isn't a comment about the gunmen, and immigration from the Middle East?

 

[Sphynx]

I'm not sure if I agree with your numbers on this.

Every number is sourced from the ABS.

Australia's population by country of birth, Jun 2024

Statistics on Australia's estimated resident population by country of birth

www.abs.gov.au

Australia's population grew by 1.6%

www.abs.gov.au

Australia's population grows by 2.5%

www.abs.gov.au

 

[ElectricG]

I agree. But that's why I'm supportive of things like the social media restriction for kids, banning visas to people like Owens, finding ways to reduce hatespeech, etc.

Because I want to reduce these extremist ideologies, and the radicalisation that comes from it.

You’re glad Owens’ visa was denied as am I. I reckon you’d resent being told you only feel that way because she’s black. That’s the frustration a lot of people feel over the Islam/immigration debate.

 

[Markfs]

Did she actually use the term “re-program”?
Why do they need reprogramming?

no that's my wording.

i base that opinion on the fact that before the hamas breakout in 2023, most of australia was supportive of israel and thought that it was the sole democracy in the middle east, the most moral army in the world.. yada yada. So the re-programming involves "re-educating" Australians back to those opinions.

The other part of the re-programming is to reinstate the reverence for the holocaust....which also seems to have slipped.

 

[Sphynx]

I've only seen a few posts throughout this thread.

But this thread is specifically about the horrific massacre.
And you're talking about immigration.
If that isn't you commenting on the gunmen, what is it?

And again, I'm with you in opposing Islamic extremism. I want to work on ways to prevent the growth and spread of these ideologies. And they aren't stopped by borders.

So why are you talking about 2023-24 immigration spikes in this thread? If it isn't a comment about the gunmen, and immigration from the Middle East?

Because our dedicated support mechanisms by Home Affairs are often targeted on recent immigrants, weather that is distasteful to you or not. Through pure volume, it’s reasonable to question whether there is enough support there for these policies and initiatives.

Programs like CVE isnt only targeted purely at immigration blocks from high risk countries, but early intervention in communities to stop people exactly like this 24 year old gunman being radicalised.

It’s perfectly reasonable to question if some of these programs are at breaking point.

The public inquiry will uncover it, no doubt.

 

[CM86]

You’re glad Owens’ visa was denied as am I. I reckon you’d resent being told you only feel that way because she’s black. That’s the frustration a lot of people feel over the Islam/immigration debate.

I would resent it, but I'd also be able to explain it and justify it.


I can understand the frustrations people feel when being accused of racism, for positions they believe are valid and justified.
But I'll still try to explain and educate them on how they shouldn't hold those bigoted views.
I won't try to stop them being against Islam, I'll try to help them understand that they shouldn't fear and hate people of Middle Eastern appearance.

 

[Gethelred]

You’re glad Owens’ visa was denied as am I. I reckon you’d resent being told you only feel that way because she’s black. That’s the frustration a lot of people feel over the Islam/immigration debate.

I don't know about you, but it takes a bit more than someone disapproving of immigration for me to call them racist.

I feel like you're missing a few steps to this particular foxtrot.