Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on FF *Guilty Overturned on Appeal
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on FM *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

WT - William Tyrrell
FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[31550]

It’s my understanding that the trace was in the yard near the large verandah overlooking the yard to the south east. Not the carport or the driveway.

So nobody noticed the tyre tracks leading from a road around the house up to the back verandah?

 

[31550]

And FM telling Lydene Heslop that William disappeared while she was taking Lindsay inside to the toilet. Then told numerous people he disappeared while she was inside making cups of tea. Then the final version changed to her claiming she was sitting on the deck where he was playing daddy tiger just metres from her, he ran around the corner said “raa” then nothing.

Is there any record of any interview with Lydene Heslop available?

 

[Wallace52]

And Lindsay claims he disappeared around the corner when she is actually in the toilet.

So glad we all rely on Lindsay’s testimony.

A four year child’s testimony probably won’t hold up in court. There are issues with child witnesses, and with the way L was interviewed.
IMO

 

[Lady O]

And FM telling Lydene Heslop that William disappeared while she was taking Lindsay inside to the toilet. Then told numerous people he disappeared while she was inside making cups of tea. Then the final version changed to her claiming she was sitting on the deck where he was playing daddy tiger just metres from her, he ran around the corner said “raa” then nothing.

Where did you get this info about FM taking LT to the WC?

 

[Curious Clues]

Is there any record of any interview with Lydene Heslop available?

Not that I’ve seen.

Where did you get this info about FM taking LT to the WC?

It’s in the 2016 interview with Jubelin and FM. It’s not publicly available so you can take my word for it or disregard it.

 

[Lady O]

Not that I’ve seen.

It’s in the 2016 interview with Jubelin and FM. It’s not publicly available so you can take my word for it or disregard it.

Inside info eh (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

 

[DropBearess]

I don't think the CCTV evidence of FF passing the TC should be the 'be all and end all'. FGM said he left at 8.00 am. Maybe he actually did. Wasn't there some sort of dummy-spit when he was jack of all the morning chaos, resulting in FM saying "l'll do the kids and you just do you".
How often has a co-parent flown the coop earlier than necessary and fibbed about reasons, just to get some peace? Perhaps he grabbed a handful of toast, a coffee, then drove around to compose himself, only passing cameras once.

We know FF was taking anti-anxiety meds and according to FGM, was "really keen" to get to the pharmacy. If William was up at 6, which he probably was, why is there almost no narrative between 6 and 8? Maybe FF foresaw impending trouble between FM and WT and disappeared, thinking William was safe with FGM around. If he left at 8.00, he cannot account for two and a half hours that morning when William wasn't in his care. That's a long time.

 

[Leon Higgins]

So nobody noticed the tyre tracks leading from a road around the house up to the back verandah?

Not sure , but you can drive to the point under the verandah. Separate entrance to the car port where the vehicles were parked. There were no fences.

You will have to ask inspector Rex that.

 

[Leon Higgins]

I don't think the CCTV evidence of FF passing the TC should be the 'be all and end all'. FGM said he left at 8.00 am. Maybe he actually did. Wasn't there some sort of dummy-spit when he was jack of all the morning chaos, resulting in FM saying "l'll do the kids and you just do you".
How often has a co-parent flown the coop earlier than necessary and fibbed about reasons, just to get some peace? Perhaps he grabbed a handful of toast, a coffee, then drove around to compose himself, only passing cameras once.

We know FF was taking anti-anxiety meds and according to FGM, was "really keen" to get to the pharmacy. If William was up at 6, which he probably was, why is there almost no narrative between 6 and 8? Maybe FF foresaw impending trouble between FM and WT and disappeared, thinking William was safe with FGM around. If he left at 8.00, he cannot account for two and a half hours that morning when William wasn't in his care. That's a long time.

It’s enough time to get to the bird tree and back. Maybe Dan Box was closer than he realised. I think the FGM let the cat out of the bag in that walkthrough. It was only days later. She definitely is not demented in that interview.

The way she was gaslighted after that by the fosters has to be explained. Can’t have a loose cannon firing away.

 

[31550]

I don't think the CCTV evidence of FF passing the TC should be the 'be all and end all'. FGM said he left at 8.00 am. Maybe he actually did. Wasn't there some sort of dummy-spit when he was jack of all the morning chaos, resulting in FM saying "l'll do the kids and you just do you".
How often has a co-parent flown the coop earlier than necessary and fibbed about reasons, just to get some peace? Perhaps he grabbed a handful of toast, a coffee, then drove around to compose himself, only passing cameras once.

We know FF was taking anti-anxiety meds and according to FGM, was "really keen" to get to the pharmacy. If William was up at 6, which he probably was, why is there almost no narrative between 6 and 8? Maybe FF foresaw impending trouble between FM and WT and disappeared, thinking William was safe with FGM around. If he left at 8.00, he cannot account for two and a half hours that morning when William wasn't in his care. That's a long time.

Some very relevant observations in this:

• Morning chaos (or chaos in general)
• Lack of detailed narrative between 6am and 9am compared with very detailed narrative between 9am and 10am. Everyone except FGM was supposedly up early, so why the late breakfast, and why didn't FF have time to eat properly?
• FF had 3 hours to prepare for his meeting, but was in a rush
• FF needed his anxiety medication and didn't have time to get them before the meeting (Wasn't there a pharmacy open in Laurieton or Kew which opened earlier ~ 8am?)

I'm interested in the family dynamic. What sort of roles did each foster parent play? We know they both worked and the kids were in regular day-care. I think there were moves to extend the hours / days of day-care? Did FM look after the kids on any days when they were not in day-care? She took on the role of packing stuff for the kids, but they still left the house late and in a hurry, and clearly she did not pack FFs anxiety meds. She didn't pack any food or snacks, or they would not have had to stop at McDonalds. (I know, 'special treat'). It seems she put more effort into boarding the cats than planning the trip. She rang multiple catteries to arrange boarding for two nights. If it was only one night she was going to leave the cats unattended. Why didn't she just arrange with a close friend or neighbour to come in on the Friday and check on the cats, empty their litter and top up food and water? When they dropped off the cats, they had to phone the cattery as they were running late and the cattery closed at 3.15 (or 3.30?) She had to wait for FF to finish work, but why didn't she drop off the cats herself earlier? Why didn't she collect the kids from day-care early herself, so they were ready to leave when FF got home? Why leave everything to the last minute? They made the decision to leave early at around 1pm. She had about 3 hours to do all the 'Mum' stuff, but all she seemed to manage was to pack a few clothes and wait for FF to get home? Then at FGM house, it seems she tried to do 'Mum' stuff with William - tree climbing, dice rolling, drawing, bike riding - but ALL of these activities led to failure of some sorts : William refused to climb the tree, wouldn't roll the dice properly, didn't want to write anything on Poppas card, deliberately crashed his bike. Anyone else see the pattern here? She's trying to be a 'Mum' but William won't let her. It's all his fault. She doesn't seem to understand his needs and wants. (Contrast to FF where William is supposedly happy to jump into bed and watch Fireman Sam with him).

So was the morning chaos and events which followed anything to do with the strange family dynamics?

And then the FF. Clearly he expected his anxiety meds to be packed for him, and assumed they were, otherwise he would have reminded FM to do so. But why doesn't he carry them round with him if they are needed regularly? What caused his anxiety? Stressful job? He spoke as though he considered himself in control and 'the head honcho'. He spoke as though he had run a number of these online meetings before, so it was not a stressful thing. He talked about possibly doing the meeting in the car on the way up. He knew the internet at FGM was 'crap'. So, he knew in advance he was going to have to go to Lakewood for the meeting. Why leave it until so late? Why not leave the house around 8am or 8.15 after a cooked breakfast which you had 2 hours to prepare, take a leisurely drive to say, Laurieton where there's a pharmacy open, get your meds, have a coffee, and start your online meeting then? What stopped him doing this?

I'm also interested in the FF job situation. He had been with the company for several years - he bragged about how he didn't have to pay for a phone, got regular phone upgrades, and couldn't identify the (unused) phone service in his name which was disconnected in the weeks leading up to William's disappearance. Clearly he was well paid - new car, nice home. Why was this service disconnected? Was he sacked or about to be sacked? Or maybe looking to leave the company? Why was he getting phone calls from recruiters? It seems his job was sales-related, not a hiring/firing person. He was due to go to Perth the next weekend. What was the nature of that trip? It seems his employment with that company did not last long after William's disappearance. Was his anxiety stress-related or family-related, or something else?

Put aside the 'lost' and 'abducted' scenarios for just a minute and think about what else might have happened that morning to cause William to be removed from the property. No 'normal', 'caring' parent would allow their child to come to harm, or try to cover up a serious accident, unless there were very exceptional circumstances.

My question is, are we certain these are normal caring parents, and that there were no exceptional circumstances in play?

PS. Not trying to throw anyone under a bus. Just trying to get to the truth.

 

[31550]

Not sure , but you can drive to the point under the verandah. Separate entrance to the car port where the vehicles were parked. There were no fences.

You will have to ask inspector Rex that.

Under the verandah? Or do you mean under the balcony?
You can certainly drive up the lower gravel driveway to a point almost beneath the high balcony.
You can see how some type of vehicle could potentially get up close to the back verandah area (see the FGM walkthrough, 'which way would I have gone?' part). But a car would surely have left tyre tracks in the grass at some points which would be obvious to investigators. There are no tyre marks on that part of the lawn in any pictures or videos I have seen, and none are mentioned in any reports.

 

[31550]

Yes, the incompetent interview Jubelin did with FM in 2016 that I’m sure he hopes will never see the light of day.
I would be surprised if they did do a download of their phones and devices, but if they did it was perhaps not done properly.

I know of the FF interview with Jubelin in 2016. I don't think I have seen the one with the FM. Was it presented to the coronial inquest? If not why not? If so, wouldn't it be a matter of public record (even if heavily redacted?). Why would the entire interview record be suppressed? Couldn't it be subpoenaed?

I understand that you may not be able to share it legally and within forum rules.

Can you explain how you came about this, and / or why we should take your word about its contents? It's not a matter of distrust, but a matter of due diligence in seperating fact from narrative. Some sort of evidence is required. Is there something you can provide to support these statements?

 

[Underarrest_]

Some very relevant observations in this:

• Morning chaos (or chaos in general)
• Lack of detailed narrative between 6am and 9am compared with very detailed narrative between 9am and 10am. Everyone except FGM was supposedly up early, so why the late breakfast, and why didn't FF have time to eat properly?
• FF had 3 hours to prepare for his meeting, but was in a rush
• FF needed his anxiety medication and didn't have time to get them before the meeting (Wasn't there a pharmacy open in Laurieton or Kew which opened earlier ~ 8am?)

I'm interested in the family dynamic. What sort of roles did each foster parent play? We know they both worked and the kids were in regular day-care. I think there were moves to extend the hours / days of day-care? Did FM look after the kids on any days when they were not in day-care? She took on the role of packing stuff for the kids, but they still left the house late and in a hurry, and clearly she did not pack FFs anxiety meds. She didn't pack any food or snacks, or they would not have had to stop at McDonalds. (I know, 'special treat'). It seems she put more effort into boarding the cats than planning the trip. She rang multiple catteries to arrange boarding for two nights. If it was only one night she was going to leave the cats unattended. Why didn't she just arrange with a close friend or neighbour to come in on the Friday and check on the cats, empty their litter and top up food and water? When they dropped off the cats, they had to phone the cattery as they were running late and the cattery closed at 3.15 (or 3.30?) She had to wait for FF to finish work, but why didn't she drop off the cats herself earlier? Why didn't she collect the kids from day-care early herself, so they were ready to leave when FF got home? Why leave everything to the last minute? They made the decision to leave early at around 1pm. She had about 3 hours to do all the 'Mum' stuff, but all she seemed to manage was to pack a few clothes and wait for FF to get home? Then at FGM house, it seems she tried to do 'Mum' stuff with William - tree climbing, dice rolling, drawing, bike riding - but ALL of these activities led to failure of some sorts : William refused to climb the tree, wouldn't roll the dice properly, didn't want to write anything on Poppas card, deliberately crashed his bike. Anyone else see the pattern here? She's trying to be a 'Mum' but William won't let her. It's all his fault. She doesn't seem to understand his needs and wants. (Contrast to FF where William is supposedly happy to jump into bed and watch Fireman Sam with him).

So was the morning chaos and events which followed anything to do with the strange family dynamics?

And then the FF. Clearly he expected his anxiety meds to be packed for him, and assumed they were, otherwise he would have reminded FM to do so. But why doesn't he carry them round with him if they are needed regularly? What caused his anxiety? Stressful job? He spoke as though he considered himself in control and 'the head honcho'. He spoke as though he had run a number of these online meetings before, so it was not a stressful thing. He talked about possibly doing the meeting in the car on the way up. He knew the internet at FGM was 'crap'. So, he knew in advance he was going to have to go to Lakewood for the meeting. Why leave it until so late? Why not leave the house around 8am or 8.15 after a cooked breakfast which you had 2 hours to prepare, take a leisurely drive to say, Laurieton where there's a pharmacy open, get your meds, have a coffee, and start your online meeting then? What stopped him doing this?

I'm also interested in the FF job situation. He had been with the company for several years - he bragged about how he didn't have to pay for a phone, got regular phone upgrades, and couldn't identify the (unused) phone service in his name which was disconnected in the weeks leading up to William's disappearance. Clearly he was well paid - new car, nice home. Why was this service disconnected? Was he sacked or about to be sacked? Or maybe looking to leave the company? Why was he getting phone calls from recruiters? It seems his job was sales-related, not a hiring/firing person. He was due to go to Perth the next weekend. What was the nature of that trip? It seems his employment with that company did not last long after William's disappearance. Was his anxiety stress-related or family-related, or something else?

Put aside the 'lost' and 'abducted' scenarios for just a minute and think about what else might have happened that morning to cause William to be removed from the property. No 'normal', 'caring' parent would allow their child to come to harm, or try to cover up a serious accident, unless there were very exceptional circumstances.

My question is, are we certain these are normal caring parents, and that there were no exceptional circumstances in play?

PS. Not trying to throw anyone under a bus. Just trying to get to the truth.

Why didn’t FF remember/pack his medication or if he’d run out fill his script on the way home to collect FM. Why didn’t FF make his Friday work appointment for the afternoon if he thought he’d be travelling in the morning. Big rush to fit one short video call in.

 

[passball]

Going through old posts.
Anyone remember this?
Why were FPs cooking dinner and drinking wine the night of William's 'disappearance'?
Did they say they didn't want to be disturbed when they were in their bedroom?
Wasn't there also phone activity on their phones while they were in there?

 

[passball]

I know you like to stick to facts. Also what is evidence. But don't ignore the vibe, even if it will not be able to stand up to legal evidence in court.

Inspector Rex, Gov, thought that William did not leave 48 on foot. William did not wander into a neighbours yard, or on the road. Gov thought William was taken from 48 by a car, . Gov was there to find a lost child. I don't think inspector Rex will be asked to give evidence.

Last person to see William is confusing. Different versions. Again may not be important and not used as evidence. It would seem careless for FM or FGM to let William play in the front unfenced yard unsupervised. FGM said she saw him go around the house as did FM. Other versions have FM making tea inside, so FM is not the one to let William go out of site.

Tennis Club CCTV. The recorded FF leaving time is 8:49. This does not fit in with running late and leaving after nine, or with FGM saying leaving at 8:00. Return trip, i don't know the recorded time (or even if the car was seen returning) but estimating (10:16 +7) let's say around 10:23. But then the CCTV time is in doubt. I thought it was eventually corrected by 19 minutes. So again, with confusion, may not be evidence.
Recorded times would be 8:49 and 10:04
Corrected times would be 9:08 and 10:23.
Interesting. The time spent by FF waiting (in or around the chemist) between the work call and the receipt was also about 19 minutes.
The corrected times fit in better with the FF's narrative.

I thought the CCTV was initially 9 mins out and then 14.
When did it change to 19?

 

[winyhill]

I'm also interested in the FF job situation. He had been with the company for several years - he bragged about how he didn't have to pay for a phone, got regular phone upgrades, and couldn't identify the (unused) phone service in his name which was disconnected in the weeks leading up to William's disappearance. Clearly he was well paid - new car, nice home. Why was this service disconnected? Was he sacked or about to be sacked? Or maybe looking to leave the company?

When abduction was the theory, I wondered about a targeted abduction due to his work. For leverage of some kind if he was involved in something shady.
That is based on the assumption the abductors did not know William was a foster child and assumed he was FF's son. When they found out he was not, just killed and dumped?

Or, if the biological father was in deep with some drug thing being that he had recently been released from goal. But again, that needed knowledge of the foster situation. And we were told Police checked him out very thoroughly and I am sure they would have thought of that possibilty.

 

[Underarrest_]

Going through old posts.
Anyone remember this?
Why were FPs cooking dinner and drinking wine the night of William's 'disappearance'?
Did they say they didn't want to be disturbed when they were in their bedroom?
Wasn't there also phone activity on their phones while they were in there?

What was the phone activity?

 

[passball]

Was it only FM who checked in at the command centre during the night?
Trying to make it seem they were both at FGMs but the FF was actually out and about

 

[Underarrest_]

Was it only FM who checked in at the command centre during the night?
Trying to make it seem they were both at FGMs but the FF was actually out and about

FM or FF might not know either was out. Didn’t they say they slept in separate bedrooms or had they moved to the one bedroom the next night?

 

[Underarrest_]

When abduction was the theory, I wondered about a targeted abduction due to his work. For leverage of some kind if he was involved in something shady.
That is based on the assumption the abductors did not know William was a foster child and assumed he was FF's son. When they found out he was not, just killed and dumped?

Or, if the biological father was in deep with some drug thing being that he had recently been released from goal. But again, that needed knowledge of the foster situation. And we were told Police checked him out very thoroughly and I am sure they would have thought of that possibilty.

I’d wondered the same thing about FF. He did ask if his car could have been tracked.

 

[passball]

What was the phone activity?

I don't know, just reading back apparently there was activity

 

[LRitz]

Do you have a source for the tennis club CCTV and the 19 minutes? That would seem to make more sense if FF passed the tennis club at 9.08am actual time. It would coincide with him arriving in Lakewood in time to set up his online meeting, but not enough time to get his script from the pharmacy first. It also fits better with FF being present in the house when the Spedding call was made. (FM was explicit about this in her 2015 statement - she said she could see FF when she was on the phone). It blows FGM walkthrough out of the water however - she must have known FF was in the house when they had breakfast, so why say he had to leave early and before breakfast?

This time discrepancy in the tennis club CCTV therefore becomes quite crucial, as it can potentially tell us which account of breakfast is possible, and which is not possible.

Following up. looks like 14 minutes slow is the CCTV error, not 19 minutes. If you are happy to accept the report by always intrigued of the inquest. In 2017 they corrected Richard's time leaving the TC by 9 minutes. in the 2024 inquest the time of Peter passing the TC is also corrected but now is 14 minutes.

From media report daily Mail below: ...Richard Donoghue's BMW was still at the tennis club at 9.42am, which police say is the real time and the CCTV was set nine minutes early

Why CCTV at local club could prove crucial in William Tyrrell case

CCTV shows the car of a Kendall neighbour leaving a tennis club after hearing police get a call more than hour before William Tyrrell's Triple-0 call.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Part 2 post 5336 page 214. Always intrigued said they were at th inquest.: ...
On Wed 6/11/24 when the truck driver Peter gave is evidence, it was mentioned 3 times about the CCTV times from the Kendall Tennis club CCTV & it was stated it was 14mins slow & the times were being read from statements.

What time did CCTV show FF. Was it 8:40? if it was 9:40 the corrected time (8:40 + 14) is 8:54. Not after 9, and not in house when phone call to BS.

 

[LRitz]

I thought the CCTV was initially 9 mins out and then 14.
When did it change to 19?

Sorry it does look like it was 14.

But how did they work this out. And why was it corrected to 9 in 2017 and in 2024 it was 14?
I don't think there was a photo of a morning Show for reference.

 

[Leon Higgins]

Under the verandah? Or do you mean under the balcony?
You can certainly drive up the lower gravel driveway to a point almost beneath the high balcony.
You can see how some type of vehicle could potentially get up close to the back verandah area (see the FGM walkthrough, 'which way would I have gone?' part). But a car would surely have left tyre tracks in the grass at some points which would be obvious to investigators. There are no tyre marks on that part of the lawn in any pictures or videos I have seen, and none are mentioned in any reports.

High balcony.

 

[Leon Higgins]

Following up. looks like 14 minutes slow is the CCTV error, not 19 minutes. If you are happy to accept the report by always intrigued of the inquest. In 2017 they corrected Richard's time leaving the TC by 9 minutes. in the 2024 inquest the time of Peter passing the TC is also corrected but now is 14 minutes.

From media report daily Mail below: ...Richard Donoghue's BMW was still at the tennis club at 9.42am, which police say is the real time and the CCTV was set nine minutes early

Why CCTV at local club could prove crucial in William Tyrrell case

CCTV shows the car of a Kendall neighbour leaving a tennis club after hearing police get a call more than hour before William Tyrrell's Triple-0 call.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Part 2 post 5336 page 214. Always intrigued said they were at th inquest.: ...
On Wed 6/11/24 when the truck driver Peter gave is evidence, it was mentioned 3 times about the CCTV times from the Kendall Tennis club CCTV & it was stated it was 14mins slow & the times were being read from statements.

What time did CCTV show FF. Was it 8:40? if it was 9:40 the corrected time (8:40 + 14) is 8:54. Not after 9, and not in house when phone call to BS.

This is what I worked out as well. Clearly the FM is lying about him being there during the call. This adds another layer to the logical reasoning.

Why lie about this if he had not disappeared yet.

I think this is proof that something happened to William much earlier than we have been lead to believe.

Nearly everything we know is smoke and mirrors. The problem is the police were forced to investigate a fake timeline after Craddock because the investigation failed to do the most basic checks of the only evidence that proved he was alive.

Jubelin is right on this. There should be an open enquiry into the whole mess.