Preview Round 2 - GWS v St Kilda [Saturday 21 March 2026 • 4:15 PM (AEDT) • Engie Stadium]

[gringo2011]

The shock Saint leaping into Champion Data's top three players

The youngster has risen to No. 3 over a 20-game sample size.

www.sen.com.au

What I've been saying for a while now. Absolutely already an A grader.

 

[gringo2011]

So we have 3,5 and Sinclair in the top 10.

But we are 0-2.

Garbage data.

Dogs had a huge stack in the top 20 last year and did nothing with them. Having a few quality players doesn't guarantee you anything.

 

[Klaatu]

2 changes for me that we know of
Out: Keeler,McCrae
In: Marshall,Stocker

Play Windy a permanent M/F but not as a negative one like he was against Melb

Backline will have Stock, Carrol & Sinclair as med to small & Viking, SOSJ, Cama & Wilkie as the talls.

Should of moved Wilkie to Van Rooy in 1st Q, Cama to Miochec & SOSJ to Fritsh match up are important

Also keep in mind we have a new backline coach who hasn't got AFL experience so might take time to bed down.

 

[gringo2011]

We have three top rated players, but our middle six are just doing ok, and the bottom six are generally young and inexperienced players. It's a team game and we need team efforts, so Lyon needs to close that performance gap a bit and get more out of the middle rung players.

Yep. Our list profile is still a dogs breakfast. It doesn't read well on paper. It's inexperienced and journeymen and age profiles all over the shop. When you get a bulk between 24 and 27 years old you are at peak. Ours has been really messy for about 5 years and we are trying to back fill still. Guys like Liam Stocker, Liam Henry, Carroll, King, Clark etc are our core age group representatives.

 

[MordySaint]

I don’t disagree with that.

But we have a champ data telling us we have 2 of the top 5 rated players in the ENTIRE COMP and 3 in the TOP10.

If that was remotely true. We would be 2-0.

Champion data tells no real stories... just accumulations.

Our main issues are dropped marks, missed kicks, shanked goal shots at pivotal moments in the games.

 

[Remboy]

Champion data tells no real stories... just accumulations.

Our main issues are dropped marks, missed kicks, shanked goal shots at pivotal moments in the games.

How many of the top five do we have in those categories? Actually, don't tell me, I don't think I want to know.

 

[stavro#4]

Dogs had a huge stack in the top 20 last year and did nothing with them. Having a few quality players doesn't guarantee you anything.

That proves my point.

It’s BS data that people choose to lap up.

It has ZERO link to being a positive stat.

In any world. If we have 2 of the top 5 players in the game and 3 of the top 10 right now based on output. We would have won a game.

It’s useless information

 

[CaptainRisky]

What I've been saying for a while now. Absolutely already an A grader.

Mate , you have a stable bigger than Godolphin , it was just a mater of time before one from your stable turned into an A grader

 

[CaptainRisky]

Champion data tells no real stories... just accumulations.

Our main issues are dropped marks, missed kicks, shanked goal shots at pivotal moments in the games.

Poor skills, Bad decision making , Leg Speed and lack of marking power , plus all of yours as well

 

[beside the seaside]

That proves my point.

It’s BS data that people choose to lap up.

It has ZERO link to being a positive stat.

In any world. If we have 2 of the top 5 players in the game and 3 of the top 10 right now based on output. We would have won a game.

It’s useless information

Having top ten players in the comp doesn't guarantee you wins. As Saints fans we should know that, we had Plugger, Harvey and Winmar running around in the same side.

 

[Veer Right]

2 changes for me that we know of
Out: Keeler,McCrae
In: Marshall,Stocker

Play Windy a permanent M/F but not as a negative one like he was against Melb

Backline will have Stock, Carrol & Sinclair as med to small & Viking, SOSJ, Cama & Wilkie as the talls.

Should of moved Wilkie to Van Rooy in 1st Q, Cama to Miochec & SOSJ to Fritsh match up are important

Also keep in mind we have a new backline coach who hasn't got AFL experience so might take time to bed down.

I like Windhager the defensive mid/half back. His ball use is good in those roles.

 

[beside the seaside]

Poor skills, Bad decision making , Leg Speed and lack of marking power , plus all of yours as well

And missed tackles.

 

[Veer Right]

Poor skills, Bad decision making , Leg Speed and lack of marking power , plus all of yours as well

Both of you are describing Sharmans start to this year to a tee.

 

[The_Steadier]

Banfield to wing, Boxshall to Macrae role.

I don't hate it.

Do that plus drop carroll and put nas at half back for a couple of weeks to get his head straight.

While we are at it, drop the viking for stocker.

 

[MordySaint]

Both of you are describing Sharmans start to this year to a tee.

I don't think in Sharmans wildest dreams he ever thought he would end up the number 1 KPF in an AFL side. The pressure of this position has got to him.

We put all our eggs in the basket of injured KPF (McCartin/King) thinking they would come good.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Both of you are describing Sharmans start to this year to a tee.

I'm pretty sure we could add more than Sharman to the list , have had a lot of verry ordinary players so far

 

[stavro#4]

Having top ten players in the comp doesn't guarantee you wins. As Saints fans we should know that, we had Plugger, Harvey and Winmar running around in the same side.

There’s a difference between ranking and actual impact.

Ranking is just numbers spit out by a formula. It rewards accumulation. Impact is what actually changes games. Big moments. Scoreboard influence. Winning contests when it matters.

That’s why saying someone is a top 10 player isn’t the same as saying someone is statistically performing like a top 3, top 5 or top 10 player.

Because if those rankings actually reflected impact, we’re not dropping two games by a couple of kicks while supposedly having three players performing at that level.

That’s the issue with Champion Data. Fine for team trends, but when you drill into individuals it often overrates output and misses real influence.

This is the only part of the article that actually matters and should have been the focus:

“who is the third highest rated player over the last 20 matches of footy?”

Just highlights this entire top 10 crap is baseless formula dribble. Means nothing to actually winning games.

 

[Mav3rick]

So we have 3,5 and Sinclair in the top 10.

But we are 0-2.

Garbage data.

Takes more than three players to win a game. How many guys do you think we have outside of the top 250? A lot I'd wager.

Without those three we lose by 10 goals most weeks I'd imagine

 

[stavro#4]

Takes more than three players to win a game. How many guys do you think we have outside of the top 250? A lot I'd wager.

Without those three we lose by 10 goals most weeks I'd imagine

Scroll down and read my most recent post.

It’s a formula that really shouldn’t be celebrated.

We know all 3 are A graders and that fits your point.

But they aren’t 3 of the top 10 players in the league right now which is mine and it’s BS data that is meaningless.

 

[cooperrules]

max could be boltons son

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Willy has one blinder per year. Don’t overpay. Make others overpay in trade terms.
Poo has one blinding quarter per year, same rules.
Pay Hally whatever he wants and never ever again get hauled across the barrel like we did with NaZ Wilkie and Windy.
Set the limits and stick to them.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

When is training in this week? Tell rtb and the coaches to stay home and let Hally take it. He’s the only one with any football brains who knows how to read a game.
Hally for captain coach.

 

[Mav3rick]

Scroll down and read my most recent post.

It’s a formula that really shouldn’t be celebrated.

We know all 3 are A graders and that fits your point.

But they aren’t 3 of the top 10 players in the league right now which is mine and it’s BS data that is meaningless.

You don't know what the formula is, that's pretty clear based on your posts. Champion data specifically doesn't award accumulation and counting stats, it rewards winning hard ball, good ball use and scoreboard impact, which is why Hall is in the top 3 and the top disposal getters aren't.

If you agree that they're A graders and you agree with the other names on the list, as I imagine most would, I'm not sure why you're so offended by their placement in the top 10. People like data because it's not based on opinion, your opinion is that it's meaningless which is fine but it doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with you.

 

[Palantine]

So people are just throwing darts , Lets just say he would want to have improved over the summer

I caught a big of his game against Seagulls and thought he was impressive. And I’m not his number one fan but I’m hopeful for him. His pressure and tackling was very very good. Didn’t see him kick a goal - but he had good involvement and was getting a bit of it in the contest and was super fast and clean. Looked improved to me. Personally it would be zero surprise to see him come in if Ryan goes out.

 

[stavro#4]

You don't know what the formula is, that's pretty clear based on your posts. Champion data specifically doesn't award accumulation and counting stats, it rewards winning hard ball, good ball use and scoreboard impact, which is why Hall is in the top 3 and the top disposal getters aren't.

If you agree that they're A graders and you agree with the other names on the list, as I imagine most would, I'm not sure why you're so offended by their placement in the top 10. People like data because it's not based on opinion, your opinion is that it's meaningless which is fine but it doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with you.

Odd response. But I’ll bite.

You’re giving that list way more authority than it deserves.

No one is arguing that Champion Data doesn’t try to weight things like contested ball, efficiency or scoreboard impact. The issue is pretending that because a formula exists, the output suddenly becomes definitive.

It doesn’t.

A model is still just a set of assumptions. What it chooses to reward, what it can’t measure, and how it weights moments all shape the result. That’s not “objective truth”, it’s just a structured opinion.

That’s the gap you’re missing. There’s a difference between:

•saying someone is performing like a top 10 player based on certain tracked metrics
•and saying they are a top 10 player in the competition

Those aren’t the same thing.

Footy impact isn’t fully captured by data. role, opposition attention, system, game state, leadership, how a player influences contests they don’t even touch — none of that is cleanly quantified.

The best players consistently shape games beyond what shows up in any formula.

So yeah, you can have Hall rated top 3 by their model. That tells you how he’s scoring in their system. It doesn’t suddenly override broader context or make it gospel.

I’m not pushing back because i “don’t understand the formula”. I’m pushing back because I understand its limitations.

Use it as a tool, not a conclusion.

Facts are that if we truly had 3 top 10
Players in the game and 2 in the top 5. They would have masked a bucket load of short comings from the others because they ARE that good.

The “Tool of champion data” agrees the boys are having an impact and we all agree with Hall. We agree Nas is having scoreboard impact but missing elsewhere and if you read through the post game autopsy. A lot have highlighted that Sinclair made some howlers.

What they are not and is being missed, is that outside the data set it’s not a true reflection of those performing as top 10 players in the game. Because they impact winning. They impact the performances of those around them.