Coaching Staff Senior Coach: John Worsfold - Thank you John

[BrunoV]

What are your opinions on the matter?

I want to know as well

I'm biased, like if I was playing a football manager game or picking a team from scratch (all things being equal which just looks like a normal team) I probably wouldn't pick our mids, other than Sheil and maybe Merrett (though Merrett's game is largely wasted getting cheap kicks in the defensive half of the ground, he could be used effectively).

I also think we're genuinely a bottom 4 or 5 midfield in the AFL as a collective. At the current rate I'd really only look at GC, St Kilda and Calrton as being quantifiably worse when it comes to output (though Carlton really only because they are young - I expect them to fly past us).

Someone will start talking about all Australians and stats but the collective is terrible. It's certainly bottom 3 least physically imposing and definitely in terms of overall physical capability.

I doubt we have a ball winner who is genuinely in the top 50 in the AFL in that one skill. Seriously, that's about 2.5 a team and there are lists with 6 players or more.

You'd think that in a group skewed like that someone could run hard. Shit, you'd think there would be at least one or two quality endurance athletes to work defensively.

We keep pointing to clearance stats but I cant reconcile that with a group of players that gets smashed in actual contested situations as was the case against GWS.

Neither contested possessions nor clearances require a physical dispute between opposition players for the ball. All they really require is for no one to have possession of the ball in certain scenarios. I dont have hours or even the technological capability to create videos of it but I am confident it's why our numbers look okay.

Obviously there is a strength to this one aspect of our clearance work, that is also assisted by the quality of Bellchambers ruck work. I think if you play the percentages there are enough occasions when a clearance or stoppage scenario ends in space for our mids to be effective and they can be but they're not serious.

 

[ant555]

I'm biased, like if I was playing a football manager game or picking a team from scratch (all things being equal which just looks like a normal team) I probably wouldn't pick our mids, other than Sheil and maybe Merrett (though Merrett's game is largely wasted getting cheap kicks in the defensive half of the ground, he could be used effectively).

I also think we're genuinely a bottom 4 or 5 midfield in the AFL as a collective. At the current rate I'd really only look at GC, St Kilda and Calrton as being quantifiably worse when it comes to output (though Carlton really only because they are young - I expect them to fly past us).

Someone will start talking about all Australians and stats but the collective is terrible. It's certainly bottom 3 least physically imposing and definitely in terms of overall physical capability.

I doubt we have a ball winner who is genuinely in the top 50 in the AFL in that one skill. Seriously, that's about 2.5 a team and there are lists with 6 players or more.

You'd think that in a group skewed like that someone could run hard. Shit, you'd think there would be at least one or two quality endurance athletes to work defensively.

We keep pointing to clearance stats but I cant reconcile that with a group of players that gets smashed in actual contested situations as was the case against GWS.

Neither contested possessions nor clearances require a physical dispute between opposition players for the ball. All they really require is for no one to have possession of the ball in certain scenarios. I dont have hours or even the technological capability to create videos of it but I am confident it's why our numbers look okay.

Obviously there is a strength to this one aspect of our clearance work, that is also assisted by the quality of Bellchambers ruck work. I think if you play the percentages there are enough occasions when a clearance or stoppage scenario ends in space for our mids to be effective and they can be but they're not serious.

True Bruno. We are an average midfield and we run a lot of non midfielders through the middle. We can break even in the clearance stakes but we actually lack midfield craft. This is the reason why I have been saying we have been 2 or 3 genuine midfielders short for a long time.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

That's usually the case. If you're well prepared tactically, it will show early in the game.

We looked shaky first quarter, alarm bells were already ringing. Went half arsed at some contests and they looked dangerous whenever forward. A lot of shit teams look competitive first quarter.

 

[BrunoV]

We looked shaky first quarter, alarm bells were already ringing. Went half arsed at some contests and they looked dangerous whenever forward. A lot of shit teams look competitive first quarter.

But we still maintained field position and stifled their ball movement while looking like a pack of VFL players.

It can only be the system can't it?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Btw I’m not saying we’re a shit team overall.....yet.

Last year we beat Eagles away, thrashed Swans and Cats, comfortably accounted for Port away. Certainly capable list wise

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

But we still maintained field position and stifled their ball movement while looking like a pack of VFL players.

It can only be the system can't it?

Giants were a bit scratchy at start then put down the pedal. Just didn’t see the same pressure on ball winner as last year especially in mid field. Looked like we were holding back, was it some kind weird zone? Baffling

 

[Mr_McBoogerBalls]

I probably wouldn't pick our mids, other than Sheil and maybe Merrett (though Merrett's game is largely wasted getting cheap kicks in the defensive half of the ground, he could be used effectively).

I also think we're genuinely a bottom 4 or 5 midfield in the AFL as a collective. At the current rate I'd really only look at GC, St Kilda and Calrton as being quantifiably worse when it comes to output (though Carlton really only because they are young - I expect them to fly past us).

I doubt we have a ball winner who is genuinely in the top 50 in the AFL in that one skill. Seriously, that's about 2.5 a team and there are lists with 6 players or more.

Agree. I also think with the arrival of the 6-6-6 formation, ball winning contested mids are more important than ever.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Btw I’m not saying we’re a shit team overall.....yet.

Last year we beat Eagles away, thrashed Swans and Cats, comfortably accounted for Port away. Certainly capable list wise

our list on paper is one of the best in the league. Multiple All Australians in every area on the park. Mid, Fwd & Back.

Our issue is a mental one. This is the exact same situation as Carlton last year. We got beaten by them and came out pissing fire for 10 weeks.

I expect to see the same here.

 

[Vander18]

Our biggest issue is the lack of ability in the marking department. No one takes a telling mark coming out of defence so the ball is always in a contest. IF we could take a mark we could move the ball quicker and bring the running players into the game.

This.

 

[citizen-erased]

I'm biased, like if I was playing a football manager game or picking a team from scratch (all things being equal which just looks like a normal team) I probably wouldn't pick our mids, other than Sheil and maybe Merrett (though Merrett's game is largely wasted getting cheap kicks in the defensive half of the ground, he could be used effectively).

I also think we're genuinely a bottom 4 or 5 midfield in the AFL as a collective. At the current rate I'd really only look at GC, St Kilda and Calrton as being quantifiably worse when it comes to output (though Carlton really only because they are young - I expect them to fly past us).

Someone will start talking about all Australians and stats but the collective is terrible. It's certainly bottom 3 least physically imposing and definitely in terms of overall physical capability.

I doubt we have a ball winner who is genuinely in the top 50 in the AFL in that one skill. Seriously, that's about 2.5 a team and there are lists with 6 players or more.

You'd think that in a group skewed like that someone could run hard. Shit, you'd think there would be at least one or two quality endurance athletes to work defensively.

We keep pointing to clearance stats but I cant reconcile that with a group of players that gets smashed in actual contested situations as was the case against GWS.

Neither contested possessions nor clearances require a physical dispute between opposition players for the ball. All they really require is for no one to have possession of the ball in certain scenarios. I dont have hours or even the technological capability to create videos of it but I am confident it's why our numbers look okay.

Obviously there is a strength to this one aspect of our clearance work, that is also assisted by the quality of Bellchambers ruck work. I think if you play the percentages there are enough occasions when a clearance or stoppage scenario ends in space for our mids to be effective and they can be but they're not serious.

its hard to disagree after the weekend....but i think our midfield can be better.
The question is going to be whether they will be.

It would be hard to argue any midfield in the comp has the inconsistency in effort that ours does.
Or the propensity to not give a shit and rollover.

Shiel, Smith, Stringer, Merrett, Heppell, McGrath. Thats a strong midfield.
If we get a run of games where these guys all play to potential and max capacity, we'd be tough to beat.

Woosha needs to get that from them.
And throwing the likes of Fanta, Tippa, Myers, Zaka, etc at the coalface is not going to help.

 

[Bombermania]

its hard to disagree after the weekend....but i think our midfield can be better.
The question is going to be whether they will be.

It would be hard to argue any midfield in the comp has the inconsistency in effort that ours does.
Or the propensity to not give a shit and rollover.

Shiel, Smith, Stringer, Merrett, Heppell, McGrath. Thats a strong midfield.
If we get a run of games where these guys all play to potential and max capacity, we'd be tough to beat.

Woosha needs to get that from them.
And throwing the likes of Fanta, Tippa, Myers, Zaka, etc at the coalface is not going to help.

Shiel, Smith, Stringer, Merrett, Heppell, McGrath is the mid field I expected to see and I don't mind Walla going in once or twice a quarter as he is clean with his hands in close.

 

[Liberator]

This.

Absolutely this.
I think it's partly a team balance thing - in terms of physical traits for sure (quite a few vertically challenged) but also actual talent in the air which even short arses can possess.
Of course, you can have both (appropriate height for position/aerial talent) more present in your team which makes things easier obviously, and doesn't need necessarily to cost too much in terms of lessened mobility.
As a team you can't really carry too many players who have neither the talent nor the frame to provide a consistent aerial contest I think - you become neutered in the air (which is so, so painful). More unfavourable contests result, and then your genuine targets become easier to defend because they are that much more relied on.
The difference might just be one or two players who are more able, or at least be more competitive in making contests - including the fitness/mobility to get to said contests.
It's one of the reasons why it's so important for us that most of Laverde, Redman, Langford and Ridley come on, and can eventually play a lot of time in midfield. Decent size and can mark the ball. Even the B team boys - DClarke, Mutch, Jok, are at least serviceable as marking targets from what I've seen.

 

[yaco55]

There are three parts of a team's performance - Effort, Execution and organisation - EFC could have done better with effort and organisations BUT the overwhelming factor in the defeat was EXECUTION - My definition of execution is not just kicking or handballing but movement throughout the field - When the team hopelessly fumbles, disposal by hand and foot is shoddy and forwards are not providing viable options, then it's a recipe for disaster - I have been banging on about EXECUTION for years - Will add that in a perfect world, EFC would have grabbed Whitfield before Shiel because he's an elite kick - Finally usually when the EFC game plan breaks down its caused by our vulnerability to aerial balls in defence - This has been an issue since 2016, though it's often nullified when Hooker is playing.

 

[Jade]

Shiel, Smith, Stringer, Merrett, Heppell, McGrath is the mid field I expected to see and I don't mind Walla going in once or twice a quarter as he is clean with his hands in close.

Strong as all hell too...

 

[srobbo]

He’s got this year to get the buy in or he’s gone. From what I’ve seen JLT/Rd 1, it looks like the same disorganised, weird zone brand that stunk rd’s 2-8 lst year.

Thankfully & this means by no ends I think we’ll win, we’re at home for the next month against opposition that weren’t much better than us Rd 1. (Although brisbane will beat us on form)

 

[JayJ20]

I'm biased, like if I was playing a football manager game or picking a team from scratch (all things being equal which just looks like a normal team) I probably wouldn't pick our mids, other than Sheil and maybe Merrett (though Merrett's game is largely wasted getting cheap kicks in the defensive half of the ground, he could be used effectively).

I also think we're genuinely a bottom 4 or 5 midfield in the AFL as a collective. At the current rate I'd really only look at GC, St Kilda and Calrton as being quantifiably worse when it comes to output (though Carlton really only because they are young - I expect them to fly past us).

Someone will start talking about all Australians and stats but the collective is terrible. It's certainly bottom 3 least physically imposing and definitely in terms of overall physical capability.

I doubt we have a ball winner who is genuinely in the top 50 in the AFL in that one skill. Seriously, that's about 2.5 a team and there are lists with 6 players or more.

You'd think that in a group skewed like that someone could run hard. Shit, you'd think there would be at least one or two quality endurance athletes to work defensively.

We keep pointing to clearance stats but I cant reconcile that with a group of players that gets smashed in actual contested situations as was the case against GWS.

Neither contested possessions nor clearances require a physical dispute between opposition players for the ball. All they really require is for no one to have possession of the ball in certain scenarios. I dont have hours or even the technological capability to create videos of it but I am confident it's why our numbers look okay.

Obviously there is a strength to this one aspect of our clearance work, that is also assisted by the quality of Bellchambers ruck work. I think if you play the percentages there are enough occasions when a clearance or stoppage scenario ends in space for our mids to be effective and they can be but they're not serious.

Agreed. I’ve always criticised the club for not developing and drafting pure ball-winning midfielders. None of our current midfielders would ever be the main ball-winner at Collingwood/Melbourne/Richmond/Geelong.

The VFL watchers can see what a genuine midfield looks like (relative to the competition of course).

It’s why a player like Clarke would be valuable if he can get his kicking to a reasonable level. Which also brings the question of why it’s still at the level it is. I’d personally still play him in the seniors considering some of our other players aren’t great kicks either.

Another thing I question the club on is the development of Laverde who has the physical attributes of a midfielder. He’s strong in the contest compared to Langford’s laconic style. We should be developing Laverde as the midfielder and Langford as the forward. He’s more of a bash, crash and win the ball type than Langford will likely ever be.

 

[JayJ20]

You are correct in what you say about the Pies and the Tigers but we are not going after their exact plan.

We just want the pressure and the team defence aspect which we have been very poor at. It is not about playing small forward lines. It is about not allowing sides to march the ball up the ground and get easy possession inside 50 and exposing the defenders. We need to be able to play team defence if we are to release the running power of McKenna and Saad out of half back. In games like Sunday they get stuck in the back half defending because the pressure through the middle of the ground is non existent. Take the first goal. GWS simply chipped forward along the edge of the zone. We did not slide so they had 3 x 25m kicks forward down the wing and then kicked it to the pocket where Hurley was stuck defending 3.

Our biggest issue is the lack of ability in the marking department. No one takes a telling mark coming out of defence so the ball is always in a contest. IF we could take a mark we could move the ball quicker and bring the running players into the game.

Worsfold is not a great in the tactic department but has always been a team defence man which is why he won a flag with the Eagles.

Clarkson is considered the best coach but his tactics are not radical. Find skilled players who limit turn overs. Demand players play their role and sacrifice for the team. Team defence and players who can play at both ends.
We have some players I suspect would get moved on in his game plan.

Bucks actually took a lot out of his game plan to make it more a simple pressure and defend game. With the help of his captain he managed to get most of the down hill skiers to defend and went back to Mayne who was not flashy but was prepared to play the team game and give a bit more defence.

I am not going to say Woosha is the man because the jury is out on his ability to be able to get the buy in. He has to be able to sell the message. If he can not then he has to go. I will say his wanting team defence is the right way to go and anyone else who comes in will be asking the same thing. Question the coach for sure but also question our club culture and the fact leading players like Zaharakis and Merritt do not seem to be on board with team defending. Richmond, West Coast , Collingwood and the Bulldogs all went forward on the back of team first buy in various forms.

Good summary. I’d add that we need to take a harder stance on players not willing to buy into team defence. That’s where Woosha should use his authority.

Players need to have the impression that team defence is non-negotiable. It’s the only way players will buy into it.

 

[BrunoV]

Agreed. I’ve always criticised the club for not developing and drafting pure ball-winning midfielders. None of our current midfielders would ever be the main ball-winner at Collingwood/Melbourne/Richmond/Geelong.

The VFL watchers can see what a genuine midfield looks like (relative to the competition of course).

It’s why a player like Clarke would be valuable if he can get his kicking to a reasonable level. Which also brings the question of why it’s still at the level it is. I’d personally still play him in the seniors considering some of our other players aren’t great kicks either.

Another thing I question the club on is the development of Laverde who has the physical attributes of a midfielder. He’s strong in the contest compared to Langford’s laconic style. We should be developing Laverde as the midfielder and Langford as the forward. He’s more of a bash, crash and win the ball type than Langford will likely ever be.

Honestly, part of me thinks we're just trolling Laverde. We're even now playing Myers forward. Myers who has taken 3 overhead marks in 10 years and cant run to save himself.

I understand the flaw in the logic that turning another non-midfielder into a midfielder will change anything but it's so odd, in the extreme, that someone at some point decided that turning Langford into a first receiving mid was a good use of his talents. Laverde will at least attack the ball and man with some intensity and strength.

 

[Doss]

Honestly, part of me thinks we're just trolling Laverde. We're even not playing Myers forward. Myers who has taken 3 overhead marks in 10 years and cant run to save himself.

Pray tell (and I’m in agreement with much of your analysis), why would we be ‘trolling’ Laverde?

 

[BrunoV]

Pray tell (and I’m in agreement with much of your analysis), why would be ‘trolling’ Laverde?

Of course we wouldn't be. It just looks like we are. I think the decisions made re Laverde are so intensely stupid, like we'll play any bargain basement player on the list in front of him, that I can almost see the joke of it all. I certainly couldn't explain any of them except by expressing faith in a coaching panel I largely think nothing of.

Now Myers is playing forward. Myers, that guy who does some stuff every now and then, whose qualities as a forward start and finish with bombing goals from 60.

Even the fact that now he's play 1.5 games in a month. Like the time the same thing happened last year and was taken to Perth which resulted in him playing about 1 game in 3 or 4 weeks when what he needed was conditioning.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Of course we wouldn't be. It just looks like we are. I think the decisions made re Laverde are so intensely stupid, like we'll play any bargain basement player on the list in front of him, that I can almost see the joke of it all. I certainly couldn't explain any of them except by expressing faith in a coaching panel I largely think nothing of.

Now Myers is playing forward. Myers, that guy who does some stuff every now and then, whose qualities as a forward start and finish with bombing goals from 60.

Even the fact that now he's play 1.5 games in a month. Like the time the same thing happened last year and was taken to Perth which resulted in him playing about 1 game in 3 or 4 weeks when what he needed was conditioning.

Laverde isn’t much better mate. He’s terribly inconsistent.

But then again so is Myers so whatever.

 

[BrunoV]

Laverde isn’t much better mate. He’s terribly inconsistent.

But then again so is Myers so whatever.

We gave him a 2 year deal.

Presumably someone with authority thinks his games against Melbourne and Port are closer to the norm than not.

It's very hard to become a consistent AFL player if you're not playing AFL.

 

[JayJ20]

Laverde isn’t much better mate. He’s terribly inconsistent.

But then again so is Myers so whatever.

Laverde has a lot of improvement left in him if he’s developed correctly. Myers shouldn’t be playing unless we have injuries or form warrants it. He wouldn’t be a walk up best 22 player in any of the other top 8 contenders.

His round 23 game shows what he’s capable of. I’d be happy to give him an extended run in the seniors so that he can adjust to the speed of AFL football.

 

[katana]

there's also the fact that they've dropped a first-rounder on laverde and we're still not exactly sure what he's capable of or where he might fit into a team. obviously injuries have something to do with that, but there's no point signing him on for another 2 years to fly around the country as travelling emergency. whichever way you spin it, playing plodders like baguley ahead of players you've dropped serious draft currency on is moronic for a mid-table side.

really, worsfold does himself no favours at the selection table.

 

[Vander18]

Laverde has a lot of improvement left in him if he’s developed correctly. Myers shouldn’t be playing unless we have injuries or form warrants it. He wouldn’t be a walk up best 22 player in any of the other top 8 contenders.

His round 23 game shows what he’s capable of. I’d be happy to give him an extended run in the seniors so that he can adjust to the speed of AFL football.

Myers is neither one thing nor the other....at his best when he gets it on the outside but doesn’t have the running ability to do this regularly. Has the body to win the ball inside but he is appalling by hand (his right is non-existent and his left is remarkably shit by AFL standards) so he ends up just bombing the ball by foot.

Some of the issues are the cumulative impact of his injuries but how a bloke who has been in the system for 10years or so can be this bad by hand baffles me. It’s the basic tool of trade for an inside mid and something that should be easily enough improved.