Time to face facts: It's the end of an era

[hellboy1975]

Sad to admit it, but it looks like the premiership window has now closed. Barring a miracle turnaround, we've blown it for that generation of players.

 

[AFC3000]

Be interesting to see if the supporters let the club do a rebuild. I have a feeling we could be playing half a dozen new faces right now and if we were getting the same results we are getting, there would still be a lot of sack x stuff happening, media pressure to scrape into the 8 etc.

For me, just show us that they are doing it, play some kids, don't talk about Jacobs being just a couple of days too late in his recovery, imagine the confidence Obrien gets from hearing that going into his first game in forever.

Don't worry about puzzle pieces next year (Grundy), no point paying him that in a year we will likely not do much.

This current group is tired, I'm tired of watching the same stuff without anything new to look forward to.

I just hope the "Sack Pyke" pressure doesn't build to the point he has to go, but then the club using that as an easy out. We need to be focusing on the bigger picture.

It's ok to say we need a senior coach who is going to come in and tell the board he wants things his way, sack Burton, sack the assistants etc., but he probably doesn't get a second interview.

I fear we'll try and go around again with a new head coach, with the same old Craig era stuff in place, group of players who were 26/27 at their peak now 30-ish. Mini spike, everyone gets a year to show the coach what they've got, a new coach spike, ok let's keep everything. It falls apart, we try and re-capture it, coach's free pass to make changes without criticism passes, coach enters survival mode, Sack New Coach and so on.

We could be here having this same conversation for the next 5 years.

 

[GreyCrow]

If we followed Peter J's theory on list turnover we probably wouldn't be in this position

I’ll say it again until I’m blue in the face, the process of turning over this list needs to start sooner than later.

We overrate them, they have had secure tenure for 5 years and have shown themselves to be unable to take the biggest step.

I don’t advocate bottoming out, but I advocate making a start with a 2-3 year plan with the aim being for 90% of this group to be turned over.

I think we need to earmark 6 players who played last night to be the main players in our team in 3 years time.

Those should be Sloane, the Crouches, Milera, Smith and Jones. Sloane and Smith on the way out by that point but they'd be the main senior guys still in the side.

Everyone else should be cycled through and I'm including Laird and Keath in that pack although I'd hope both will press claims in our future side. I'm not sure if Laird is just out of form or not suited to the modern contested game

I'd expect Doedee to also be there, along with a number of our first round draftees playing SANFL right now. We just need to get them in and cycle others out.

And others have started identifying players.

Rory Sloane, 29: Still in great form, but probably one or two years away from his decline being evident.

Tex Walker, 29: We all love him, no doubt. Will be remembered as being one of the Crows' ALL-TIME loyal servants. However, he may have moments of brilliance every now and then but they are just mere reminders of what he once was.

Eddie Betts, 32: Same with Tex. Loved by everyone in the AFL (except the racists) but again we only see flashes instead of consistent brilliance.

Josh Jenkins, 30: Career-best year last year (ironically in a shit year for us). Has regressed badly this year and will probably get worse given he ain't no spring chicken anymore.

Tom Lynch, 28.5: Once the best link-up player in the league. Once the best player in terms of goal assists. Not anymore.

Daniel Talia, 27.5: Should really still be in his prime. Still serviceable, but a fair way off his AA year. Doesn't even look close to recapturing that form at the moment.

Sam Jacobs, 31: Dinosaur, say no more (rhyme not intended). It's painful watching him hobble around the ground (when he's actually playing).

Do you remember as a youngster watching footy for the first time and some old bloke was shuffling around slowly and everyone was calling him a champion and you couldn't figure out why because he looked like he should actually be in a wheelchair, but then you checked out some old footage and he actually looked pretty good when he was younger? That's the state of our list. Full of champions past their prime.

Let's face it. We had our golden opportunity in 2017 with this group and we blew it and the core/leaders of the group are struggling, and will continue to struggle, to perform at their best from this point on.

It'll be really painful given how much we love these players, but I fear some hard decisions will need to be made.

My personal thought it is there is the nucleus of a good list. Not a great list but a good one. Someone mentioned the idea of Pyke still in 2017 mode and thinking the players are at the same level of talent.

Time moves on and footballers more so. It can be argued that the club is introducing players in and out of the side. And they are. But they seem to be cameos. Where is the ''Get Milera to 50 games'' mantra. Where is the '' get McGovern to 50 games'' kind of thinking for others? Get Gallucci to 50 games. Get Fogarty to 50 games

For more analysis and comments listen to the Crowcast podcast. Some of the stuff I lifted from there

As I was listening to chatter about Jenkins I thought ' just drop him and play Fogarty instead, I dont care what kind of form he has in the 2s , just do it' - Crowcast mentioned this exact point. Get the kid in

So lets look at the list in full.

 

[GreyCrow]

Our list , this is a list of Keeps by Murray2503 , I dont mind most of these names and could be persuaded on all of them being kept. Now I am very aware this is done without looking at our list profile ie If it means it leaves us short of forwards then so be it.

Sloane
Jones
Laird
Keath
Doedee
Fogarty
Milera
Brown
Gallucci
Stengle
Davis
Hamill
Sholl
B Crouch
M Crouch
Greenwood
Mchenry
Seedsman
Talia


Trade??
Smith - is he this years Lynch? Value to the club in a trade? Or do we persist with him and hope his knee doesnt give way?
Himmelberg - I want to keep him and if he wants to stay - KEEP. But if he wants to join his brother then get as much value. Dont haggle him
Mcadam - I am unsure and ambivalent about Shane. If he got dropped off the list after 2 years I would not blink
Poholke - I want to believe. 2019 is going to determine a lot about Myles
ROB - if we dont get a big fish ruckman then ROB and Himmelberg may be our future. 2019 will determine a lot about ROB (and maybe Clarke can put some more time into him )

Trade?? Delist? SANFL/Depth?
Knight - I dont think he can get any better. It may be coaching or it may be Knight himself only having a low ceiling. Trade or depth
McPherson - poor kid. I want him to be great but I fear he needs another 12 months out of football and the bio-mechanists go through his body and like a car service come back and say yay or nay. Its a brutal business but our club has stagnated on being ''nice guys''
Jake Kelly - Like Knight I think this is his level. If Brown was fit I dont think he plays. Enough said. Bundle him in the Grundy deal. Find out what Sholl and co can do
CEY- Absolute first class person. But its not a nice guy business. Hopefully a good trade can be made but if not depth only
Atkins- When Rory is in full flight and confident he brings a level to his game that makes you think he was a steal at 64 ? Has been at the club 7 years and probably made 7 tackles in that time. Is another club interested?
Murphy - started like an energiser bunny but looks lost. He may be a player lost to system football. I wonder if his instinct is being stifled? Depth


Those I would retire in October.

Mackay
Douglas
Jacobs
Betts (move to Ambassadorial role)
Otten

Those who in some way or another survive for 1 more year but are put on notice

douglyzia has already done extensive profiles on these players

Jenkins - Happy to trade him and play Fogarty all day every day.
Walker - Age catches up and as a player had a great couple of years. Relinquish the Captaincy and get back to enjoying footy and life and marriage and future children Taylor. be happy again
Gibbs - Crowcast suggested Gibbs asked to be dropped himself. His contract is such he is a keeper but still on notice to perform
Lynch - this is the player I wanted to trade for the value he held. I hope some player changes around him helps him find that spark

Who is left?

Hartigan. What to do about a player like Kyle? There are times he looks really good and other times he looks like a B grader. You know the saying My Brain Hurts? There are definite times I see that across Kyles expression. Big fellow , knows our systems. Ehh depth and match ups

Rookies

Hunter
Wilson
Strachan
Butts

(And CEY and Murphy)

I have no problem with seeing these stay as rookie listed. Maybe CEY goes but if the $$ are minimal then sure

 

[GrommoT]

...
Atkins- When Rory is in full flight and confident he brings a level to his game that makes you think he was a steal at 64 ? Has been at the club 7 years and probably made 7 tackles in that time. Is another club interested?
...

Atkins was pick #81.

With players like Smith, be good if they can have the option to stay and help if we're rebuilding, or join another club with the chance of contending.

 

[Iron]

When you think about it we have given up 10, 16, 19 and this year's first pick for Gibbs and Carlton's first round pick this year.

That is a massive price to pay especially when we're now potentially facing a rebuild.

When you put it liked that it isn't that bad really. If Carlton finish last, would you trade 10 and 16 for pick 1? Gibbs for 19? Both are interesting propositions.

All that aside I'm not disagreeing with your point.

 

[Vhaluus]

The era ended 18 months ago, people have just been slow on the uptake.

 

[Vhaluus]

When you put it liked that it isn't that bad really. If Carlton finish last, would you trade 10 and 16 for pick 1? Gibbs for 19? Both are interesting propositions.

All that aside I'm not disagreeing with your point.

Possibly and no. Gibbs was worth a mid to late second rounder when we recruited him and nothing since then has changed that fact.

 

[Iron]

Possibly and no. Gibbs was worth a mid to late second rounder when we recruited him and nothing since then has changed that fact.

Your opinion on Gibbs is already well known. Almost everyone would still disagree.

 

[Vhaluus]

Your opinion on Gibbs is already well known. Almost everyone would still disagree.

History seems like its coming down on my side as well

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

They’ve just realised the meaning behind your username.

They go on about Burton and hass and boys club. But this trade was a shocker. Worse than tippet gate because it was all our fault.

They say nothing.

But hey, we threw conservatism to the wolves in chasing a premiership. It was stupid, because our hardest obstacle to premiership is the vfl and thier umpires.

A great player, ruined by shit charlton culture, addresses that in no way.

 

[Pugsley]

We're like a bunch of hair metal bands in 1990 that are waiting for Nirvana to hit it big the next year and wipe us all out.

I think we are more like Skid Row.

 

[GrommoT]

When you think about it we have given up 10, 16, 19 and this year's first pick for Gibbs and Carlton's first round pick this year.

That is a massive price to pay especially when we're now potentially facing a rebuild.

If you're going to include the Gibbs trade, you'd also have to include get Carl's 2018 2nd pick (#24 in the end) we got with Gibbs (that most people forget about or ignore), which we then traded to GWS for Carl's 2019 r2 pick, which hopefully will be a low 20s pick again.

So 10, 16, 19 and this year's first (#10**) pick for Gibbs and Carlton's first (#1?) and second (#19?) round picks this year, which doesn't look too bad.


** Let's say we limp to 9th on the table.

 

[relapse]

If you're going to include the Gibbs trade, you'd also have to include get Carl's 2018 2nd pick (#24 in the end) we got with Gibbs (that most people forget about or ignore), which we then traded to GWS for Carl's 2019 r2 pick, which hopefully will be a low 20s pick again.

So 10, 16, 19 and this year's first (#10**) pick for Gibbs and Carlton's first (#1?) and second (#19?) round picks this year, which doesn't look too bad.


** Let's say we limp to 9th on the table.

Then you have to include Pick 33 that we gave to Carlton etc in the end I just stuck with the picks inside the top 20.

My point is still valid we have given up 4 picks inside 20 in order to secure Gibbs and Carlton's 2019 first rounder.

 

[Murray2503]

Then you have to include Pick 33 that we gave to Carlton etc in the end I just stuck with the picks inside the top 20.

My point is still valid we have given up 4 picks inside 20 in order to secure Gibbs and Carlton's 2019 first rounder.

Some people need to be fired. Gross incompetence. I believe Riccuito and Burton are in charge of list management unless I am mistaken? With these 2 intellectual heavyweights at the wheel no wonder we are ****ed. Club needs to get rid of these 2 clowns immediately before they do more damage.

 

[SaltPeter]

Some people need to be fired. Gross incompetence. I believe Riccuito and Burton are in charge of list management unless I am mistaken? With these 2 intellectual heavyweights at the wheel no wonder we are ******. Club needs to get rid of these 2 clowns immediately before they do more damage.

You're mistaken

 

[ThePrideOf]

Old and slow... a bunch of high paid guys with zero mongrel... I am not enjoying watching this mob...

 

[Golumless]

It's not the end of an era yet, but we're damn well close to it.

They have 16 weeks to find a solution, however, miss finals and that is the final nail to this core. 16 weeks is plenty of time, and Pyke has found them before at least.

The real bright spot here is that Carlton are looking closer and closer to being last which gives that silver lining regardless of what happens.

 

[marty36]

It's not the end of an era yet, but we're damn well close to it.

They have 16 weeks to find a solution, but miss finals and that is the final nail to this core.

man your fingers must be hurting as you hang on

 

[crows dude]

Is there a doctor on this board?

Alot of people irrational depressed and negative.

18 games to go.

Yep. Thats exactly what Blighty put on the board in 1997 when we were 1 and 3 like we are now. 18. We then went on a 6 game winning streak.

 

[weetert]

Should've gotten games into younger (more deserving) players at the end of last season. E.g for what conceivable reason did Otten play the last two games? We've also made a few list management errors in Otten, Dmac etc. There were plenty of good youngsters to select from this years' super draft towards the back end, so that's a big chance missed. We still have the cattle imo, but we need to make some big calls on senior players (Geelong style). I think we will win the next three and it will be the showdown that makes or breaks our year. That said, our team confidence is at 0 and is looking harder to recover each week.

 

[Murray2503]

Yep. Thats exactly what Blighty put on the board in 1997 when we were 1 and 3 like we are now. 18. We then went on a 6 game winning streak.

That team contained mcleod, hart, rehn, goodwin, jarman, smart, edwards, riccuito. No offence to our current team but there is no comparison. Club needs to focus on getting better. Our list contains those ingredients. Coach needs to start maximising our list instead of his fixed beliefs that there are only 22 to 25 players on it that can get it done. Being stubborn and pigheaded will only lead to one result for the club and for him personally.

 

[Jirkago75]

Then you have to include Pick 33 that we gave to Carlton etc in the end I just stuck with the picks inside the top 20.

My point is still valid we have given up 4 picks inside 20 in order to secure Gibbs and Carlton's 2019 first rounder.

Yep and even pick one this year has no SA players


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Sanders]

Rory Sloane, 29: Still in great form, but probably one or two years away from his decline being evident.

Tex Walker, 29: We all love him, no doubt. Will be remembered as being one of the Crows' ALL-TIME loyal servants. However, he may have moments of brilliance every now and then but they are just mere reminders of what he once was.

Eddie Betts, 32: Same with Tex. Loved by everyone in the AFL (except the racists) but again we only see flashes instead of consistent brilliance.

Josh Jenkins, 30: Career-best year last year (ironically in a shit year for us). Has regressed badly this year and will probably get worse given he ain't no spring chicken anymore.

Tom Lynch, 28.5: Once the best link-up player in the league. Once the best player in terms of goal assists. Not anymore.

Daniel Talia, 27.5: Should really still be in his prime. Still serviceable, but a fair way off his AA year. Doesn't even look close to recapturing that form at the moment.

Sam Jacobs, 31: Dinosaur, say no more (rhyme not intended). It's painful watching him hobble around the ground (when he's actually playing).

Do you remember as a youngster watching footy for the first time and some old bloke was shuffling around slowly and everyone was calling him a champion and you couldn't figure out why because he looked like he should actually be in a wheelchair, but then you checked out some old footage and he actually looked pretty good when he was younger? That's the state of our list. Full of champions past their prime.

Let's face it. We had our golden opportunity in 2017 with this group and we blew it and the core/leaders of the group are struggling, and will continue to struggle, to perform at their best from this point on.

It'll be really painful given how much we love these players, but I fear some hard decisions will need to be made.

I’ve commented similarly and worried about this before

Even if these guys haven’t fallen off the table top, how long before they do?

This year? Next?

Not long until they’re more Peter Carey than Wayne

 

[Jcpdragonx]

MacKay, Walker, Jenkins, Douglas, Jacobs all gotta go. Send out all 5 at once. Bang we're close to the youngest list in the AFL and we've lost no output.

Betts will see out his contract til 2020.
Gibbs is contracted and seems a quality person to have around. No killer instinct, perfect fit for AFC.
Sloane... poor guy should have gone to the Saints
I'm not sure what Lynch gets at the trade table, indifferent on keeping/trading. IMO should be played as a 3rd tall not up the ground, hasnt been allowed to play it for years.

Seniors
Sloane, Gibbs, Talia, Betts, Lynch, Keath, Greenwood, Smith, Laird

Youth
Crouch, Crouch, Milera, Doedee, Fog, Berg, ROB, Jones, McHenry, Scholl, pick 1. Meh. Milera and Doedee are the future. Should have cashed in on the draft last year.