Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse

[Kurve]

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[Kurve]

I'll leave this here for now and move it later.

Lia Harris on The Project. Lia says she found a new witness through her research for the podcast that had never been spoken to by police before and has since been interviewed.

From 0:51

Just moved this in here from the pods thread and giving it a bump as it might be relevant to recent discussion of a new witness.

 

[Lady O]

Very hard to analyse the photos publicly available because I'm not confident on what is a shadow in these pics due to the quality.

Also the photos were taken in an enclosed area, albeit outside.

I'm not confident that, even if they were taken at the earlier time, it would have much impact on the investigation. We know he was there and was alive. That's really all they tell us. If the timeline given by the parents was out of wack, what really does it prove? I've recently experienced a traumatic event and already I am having trouble putting the sequence of what happened together in a correct timeline. Days and hours tend to blend into each other.

 

[31550]

I'm not confident that, even if they were taken at the earlier time, it would have much impact on the investigation. We know he was there and was alive. That's really all they tell us. If the timeline given by the parents was out of wack, what really does it prove? I've recently experienced a traumatic event and already I am having trouble putting the sequence of what happened together in a correct timeline. Days and hours tend to blend into each other.

It would have enormous impact. FM has repeatedly stated that William jumped off the verandah just minutes after the photo was taken, and was never seen again. If this happened at 7:39am, her and FF testimony as to their movements that morning are completely out the window, as there are nearly 2 hours unaccounted for.

 

[Awakening]

It would definitely have an impact imo.

If the coroner or police confirm that the photo was taken at 9.39 and FF is on CCTV around 9ish, then imo it makes it more unlikely that the fosters were involved.

It's not impossible, but one person FM pulling this off in the space of 53 minutes is more unlikely then 2 people (FF & FM) pulling it off in 2 hours and 53 minutes.

 

[insanity]

For seven years, the entire investigation has hinged on the photo being taken at 9:37. If this turns out to be proven false, the implications are enormous. Not just for the fosters, but for a lot of other people.

Perhaps that's where the lying to the NSW Crime Commission comes from? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the inquest stop for the time stamp to be investigated. And we've never heard the outcome. Perhaps that's what they were both lying about and it can be proved.

Apologies if this has been stated already, I'm catching up.

As an aside ms finch I love your posts and insights.

 

[insanity]

Every time I see the images, my brain sets them as taken far earlier than the corrected time suggests. It looks like a 7.39am image.

I live on the north coast of NSW, a couple of hours north of Kendall and have always felt the same.

 

[insanity]

I've always thought they were taken earlier than 9:37am, and there's a few things.

FGM is dressed as though it is cooler and William's sister is cool enough that she has socks and a dressing gown on. That suggests early morning cool, not mid morning warmth, especially if the kids had apparently been outside running around as the story goes. Yes, older people tend to get cold more easily, but we also have his sister rugged up.

William isn't wearing socks, and I'd imagine that a child would be put in socks when they were dressed not so much for warmth but to protect their feet in their shoes (and even if they are sandals or something - every little kid I see always has socks on no matter how ridiculous it looks). On this, the FM has also, as far as I recall, explained at great lengths that his shoes were at the back door and that yes he put them on before he went back outside. What about the socks?

They had gone up there to help FGM pack and sort because she was planning to sell the house in the near future (which got delayed due to the intervening acts). By 9:37am I would have expected the adults to have started doing things and the kids to be playing inside with them or watching TV.

The image just screams: everyone just got up, kids are drawing while FGM wakes up with the newspaper.

Just on the socks thing. I moved to the NSW north coast from Melbourne some years ago and was astonished at how many people didn't wear shoes, let alone socks. Also many kids on the spectrum and/or with sensory issues don't like shoes or socks and prefer to go barefoot. Not saying this is William but it was been discussed he could be.

 

[ms finch]

Perhaps that's where the lying to the crime commission come from? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the inquest stop for the time stamp to be investigated. And we've never heard the outcome. Perhaps that's what they were both lying about and it can be proved.

Apologies if this has been stated already, I'm catching up.

As an aside ms finch I love your posts and insights.

Thank you. That's a very kind thing to say.

I did think that the photo time could be related to the charges for false & misleading evidence. The last we officially heard was that the coroner had ordered an urgent investigation into the photograph conflicting times. A couple of days ago the Daily Telegraph published an article in which they indicated that the 9:39am time had been confirmed, but this was not sourced nor was any explanation provided as to how they came to this conclusion. For me personally I think it is definitely worth exploring other options, but I'm also reserving my judgement on the photo until we get more information.

 

[Awakening]

FWIW the time looks around 8.40 in my amateur opinion and so I don't know what to make of that. Other than I don't have a clue?

 

[ms finch]

I'm not confident that, even if they were taken at the earlier time, it would have much impact on the investigation. We know he was there and was alive. That's really all they tell us. If the timeline given by the parents was out of wack, what really does it prove? I've recently experienced a traumatic event and already I am having trouble putting the sequence of what happened together in a correct timeline. Days and hours tend to blend into each other.

It depends on the degree of the timeline being out of whack. 20 minutes is probably not really anything in the big scheme of things, but if it's more than that it raises questions not just about the amount of time itself, but also about the circumstances and integrity of the FPs evidence.

The most significant issue is that it could mean FF was there when something happened to William.

The other matter is that, while it is absolutely possible to lose track of time, and I could see it being realistic that FM lost track of William for longer than 5 minutes without it being significant, there are chains of events that revolve around this photo. FM (and FF, up until the point he left) has been adamant about what went on that morning in terms of the activities and the order. If the time is different by anything more than a few minutes, the circumstances completely change.

There is then also the question about the FM's (and FF's) honesty. I make enormous amounts of room for people misremembering things due to trauma. I have been in that situation myself and boy can your mind play tricks on you. But then you raise that possibility. You say, "Look, I can't be sure about this because........." or "I think this is the case but it could be this." We are led to believe that all three foster family members have clear and identical recollections of that morning to the degree that they were involved. The certainty has framed the investigation.

 

[Kurve]

FWIW the time looks around 8.40 in my amateur opinion and so I don't know what to make of that. Other than I don't have a clue?

Having spent seven solid years in Sydney with many weekends on the north coast I'd put that image at between 7.00am and 8.00am at the latest. It still looks a bit dewy as if the sun hasn't quite had enough time up to take the edge off any morning chill.

I couldn't swear on it though obvs but I was so curious about it I even looked at the temps for the day.

 

[ms finch]

Having spent seven solid years in Sydney with many weekends on the north coast I'd put that image at between 7.00am and 8.00am at the latest. It still looks a bit dewy as if the sun hasn't quite had enough time up to take the edge off any morning chill.

Ohhhhhh, great observations about the deweyness. I have been noticing that but it just crystallised for me when you said it. And, that's my feeling about the time, too: 7-8am.

 

[Kurve]

If the timeline is faulty and pushed back by two hours, every witness in the street has to be re-interviewed. Every potential witness, taking their kids to school or standing at the bus stop, or on their way to work with the opportunity to have seen something prior to say 9.30 may be lost. Those who may have even seen something that looked suspicious and rang in could possibly have been ignored because it didn't fit within the timeline the police were working on.

The fallout from this if it's proved the FPs have lied and were involved, from FACS to the state government, NSW Police and even the negative impact on victims of crime in how they move forward is huge.

 

[Awakening]

Hold up! I've got a new suspect.

'Creepy' man approaches child, chased away by other kids

A group of brave Sydney children confronted a 'super creepy man' after he approached a young boy in broad daylight and tried to lure him away with the promise of $20 cash.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[BFew]

With both foster parents having been charged with lying to the NSW Crime Commission, surely that will impact on the inquest, in causing it to be further delayed from it's final report, until a certain point is reached in the fosters lying charges prosecution?

 

[Kurve]

With both foster parents having been charged with lying to the NSW Crime Commission, surely that will impact on the inquest, in causing it to be further delayed from it's final report, until a certain point is reached in the fosters lying charges prosecution?

IMO it might be quite some time before the Coroner delivers findings and thinking atm, on whether the FPs were actually referred to the NSW Crime Commission by the Coroner on the switch to declaring the FM sole POI.

They may have indicated refusal to cooperate any further ... bam .. hello NSW CC?

 

[ms finch]

IMO it might be quite some time before the Coroner delivers findings and thinking atm, on whether the FPs were actually referred to the NSW Crime Commission by the Coroner on the switch to declaring the FM sole POI.

They may have indicated refusal to cooperate any further ... bam .. hello NSW CC?

I don't think the Coroner can make a referral like that, but I could be wrong. I am actually not sure where to start researching it because information on the intersection of the NSW Crime Commission and NSWPol and the Coroner is very limited.

 

[Kurve]

I don't think the Coroner can make a referral like that, but I could be wrong. I am actually not sure where to start researching it because information on the intersection of the NSW Crime Commission and NSWPol and the Coroner is very limited.

I've never seen anything like this before. NSW Police are on the record as acting on and in conjunction with Coroner's orders, so I figured it might be something the Coroner was involved in.

 

[ms finch]

If the timeline is faulty and pushed back by two hours, every witness in the street has to be re-interviewed. Every potential witness, taking their kids to school or standing at the bus stop, or on their way to work with the opportunity to have seen something prior to say 9.30 may be lost. Those who may have even seen something that looked suspicious and rang in could possibly have been ignored because it didn't fit within the timeline the police were working on.

The fallout from this if it's proved the FPs have lied and were involved, from FACS to the state government, NSW Police and even the negative impact on victims of crime in how they move forward is huge.

There should already be fallout re FACS and the police. One child went missing while in the care of FCs in a situation that should have prompted an immediate review of them being FCs. Their innocence or not is not the point; an assessment had to be done. So either that assessment wasn't done or it was and it drew the wrong conclusion. The recent AVO required evidence to be put in front of a magistrate and assessed, and while obviously the magistrate will act with caution re the child, it still has to reach a threshold. The child was not just removed from their care, but an AVO issued. In addition, the FM is a POI. FACS should most certainly be doing a major review now. I cannot believe the media hasn't made an issue out of this. There are major questions to be asked about the decision making at the time.

I have particular concerns about this because of the emails between the FM and social worker from just before William's disappearance. That whole situation is tending into the realm of forced adoption and there are very, very strict laws around this in Australia. I want to know why FACS were not shutting down the FPs thoughts about adoption, let alone why there seemed to be implicit support and encouragement. That is way beyond the bounds of what they are supposed to be doing. The media should be calling for an inquiry. How many other young women and men are being railroaded into losing their children because FACS is biased against people from a lower socioeconomic demographic who have made mistakes and in favour of upper middle class pr**ks who speak the "right way"?

 

[ms finch]

I've never seen anything like this before. NSW Police are on the record as acting on and in conjunction with Coroner's orders, so I figured it might be something the Coroner was involved in.

I had some experience in a Coronial matter years ago, and I learnt that the Coroner is (surprisingly) quite limited in the way they can actually make findings and referrals. Like I said, could be wrong, but this could also be outside the bounds of what the Coroner can do just because so many things are. So you could be right. I'm trying to figure out how to check it.

 

[31550]

It depends on the degree of the timeline being out of whack. 20 minutes is probably not really anything in the big scheme of things, but if it's more than that it raises questions not just about the amount of time itself, but also about the circumstances and integrity of the FPs evidence.

The most significant issue is that it could mean FF was there when something happened to William.

The other matter is that, while it is absolutely possible to lose track of time, and I could see it being realistic that FM lost track of William for longer than 5 minutes without it being significant, there are chains of events that revolve around this photo. FM (and FF, up until the point he left) has been adamant about what went on that morning in terms of the activities and the order. If the time is different by anything more than a few minutes, the circumstances completely change.

There is then also the question about the FM's (and FF's) honesty. I make enormous amounts of room for people misremembering things due to trauma. I have been in that situation myself and boy can your mind play tricks on you. But then you raise that possibility. You say, "Look, I can't be sure about this because........." or "I think this is the case but it could be this." We are led to believe that all three foster family members have clear and identical recollections of that morning to the degree that they were involved. The certainty has framed the investigation.

I don't support the view that all three fosters (assuming you mean FM FF and FGM) have clear and identical recollections. FGM recollection (related via one of the books (Chumley or Overington, I don't remember, maybe both) was at odds with FF in regards to time of breakfast and when he left the house. FF has always had a pretty clear and consistent story. FM story however, I find to be all over the place, with cars suddenly being remembered days later, and incredible details provided, yet not knowing or recalling basic information - whether she turned left or right at Batar Ck Rd, or the name of the nearest intersecting Road, details of tree-climbing, bike-riding, card-making, cups of tea. When prompted by the 000 whether she'd seen any strange cars she IMMEDIATELY said "no no no nothing like that". When asked if William had ever gone missing before she said, "No it's completely out of character", yet she also says later, "I had a feeling immediately that someone had taken him", but then she gets her husband to search the backyard instead of looking for cars. I guess it was 'completely out of character' for William to be taken by a stranger - is that what she meant? Why didn't she immediately tell 000 or police, "I think someone's taken him!"? Why give details of the mark on the top of his head instead of repeating - "He's in a SPIDERMAN SUIT!"? FM drive in FGM car also only emerged later in the piece if I recall correctly. Why did she ask FF if he had William when he returned home? If you string together all of FM's accounts of that day, you'll get an incredible word soup that makes no sense at all. Of course, this may be a result of trauma and she could still be innocent - but I just don't believe we can take ANY of her testimony at face value.

 

[BFew]

I don't think the Coroner can make a referral like that, but I could be wrong. I am actually not sure where to start researching it because information on the intersection of the NSW Crime Commission and NSWPol and the Coroner is very limited.

Interesting that the current NSW Crime Commissioner Michael Barnes (from Aug 2020) who was also the NSW Coroner (2014-2017 until he spent 3 years as NSW Ombudsmon), was the QLD Coroner in the Daniel Morecombe case.

Coroner who helped crack Daniel Morcombe murder tasked to William Tyrrell case

The coroner who helped crack the Daniel Morcombe murder case has been tasked with assisting the investigati...

www.9news.com.au

'Coroner who helped crack Daniel Morcombe murder tasked to William Tyrrell case
1:40am Oct 24, 2016'

'NSW State Coroner Michael Barnes has revealed he is working "closely" with homicide detectives probing the disappearance of the then three-year-old, The Daily Telegraph reports.

However, Mr Barnes added that no steps had been taken to open a coronial inquest at this stage.

The development is a result of changes to the way the coroner's office works with the homicide squad, which were initiated by Mr Barnes.'

'Mr Barnes said that while inquests into unsolved homicides are usually held after a police investigation concludes, coronial courts can help to advance investigations.'

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/william-tyrrell-coroner-who-cracked-morcombe-murder-now-on-tyrrell-case/news-story/52f56fd9f743bf83491a28e8fc6acc53

'October 23, 2016 - 11:00PM'​

'William Tyrrell: Coroner who cracked Morcombe murder now on Tyrrell case​

EXCLUSIVE: THE coroner who helped crack the case of murdered teenager Daniel Morcombe has been drawn into the disappearance of William Tyrrell.'

NSW State Coroner Michael Barnes, known as “Cold Case Barnes” because of his work on unsolved murders, has confirmed he is working “closely” with homicide detectives but there are no steps yet to open an inquest into the toddler’s disappearance.

Mr Barnes has been receiving regular updates on the country’s biggest missing persons case.

It is part of the overhaul of the close working relationship between the homicide squad and the coroner’s
office initiated by Mr Barnes, who also shook up his former office as Queensland State Coroner by getting involved sooner in unsolved homicides.
....
As the police investigation reached a dead end and over the objections of the police commissioner, Mr Barnes held an inquest at which he called the various “persons of interest’’ to give evidence. It led to the arrest of paedophile Brett Peter Cowan and his jailing for life for Daniel’s murder.

William Tyrrell’s file was referred to Mr Barnes’ office last year. He has the power to hold an inquest whenever he feels it is necessary or appropriate.

Mr Barnes said that while an inquest into an unsolved homicide was traditionally held at the close of the police investigation, a coroner’s court can play an important role in the investigation itself.'

 

[ms finch]

I don't support the view that all three fosters (assuming you mean FM FF and FGM) have clear and identical recollections. FGM recollection (related via one of the books (Chumley or Overington, I don't remember, maybe both) was at odds with FF in regards to time of breakfast and when he left the house. FF has always had a pretty clear and consistent story. FM story however, I find to be all over the place, with cars suddenly being remembered days later, and incredible details provided, yet not knowing or recalling basic information - whether she turned left or right at Batar Ck Rd, or the name of the nearest intersecting Road, details of tree-climbing, bike-riding, card-making, cups of tea. When prompted by the 000 whether she'd seen any strange cars she IMMEDIATELY said "no no no nothing like that". When asked if William had ever gone missing before she said, "No it's completely out of character", yet she also says later, "I had a feeling immediately that someone had taken him", but then she gets her husband to search the backyard instead of looking for cars. I guess it was 'completely out of character' for William to be taken by a stranger - is that what she meant? Why didn't she immediately tell 000 or police, "I think someone's taken him!"? Why give details of the mark on the top of his head instead of repeating - "He's in a SPIDERMAN SUIT!"? FM drive in FGM car also only emerged later in the piece if I recall correctly. Why did she ask FF if he had William when he returned home? If you string together all of FM's accounts of that day, you'll get an incredible word soup that makes no sense at all. Of course, this may be a result of trauma and she could still be innocent - but I just don't believe we can take ANY of her testimony at face value.

Yes, fair points about FM's commentary. Clear and identical was an overstatement; I should have said something like "consistent", at least to the degree that any inconsistencies could be considered immaterial, but would be seriously called into question if the photo time was inaccurate.

For me there is a difference between recounting the time before William disappeared and the time after. I would expect there to be greater clarity on beforehand but understandably very limited clarity from the moment he disappeared. I would also expect the behaviour in the aftermath to be all over the place, but the behaviour beforehand to be quite normal. What I was referring to in the context of my post above, about what would change if the phone time is inaccurate, is more about what has been said in the longer aftermath about the normal things that occurred before William disappeared rather than things the recollection of which may have been influenced by his disappearance (eg what was said at the time or what was said about what happened after he disappeared).

I agree that as a whole with the situation as an entirety, nothing at all from her is reliable. Which is one of the reasons I couldn't stand the certainty in her commentary.

 

[BFew]

Some interesting quotes from Michael Barnes (current NSW Crime Commissioner, and ex NSW Coroner, including in the William Tyrrell case)
approach to Coroners in the below 2013 article.

Outgoing State Coroner reflects on headline-making tenure

For a decade, Michael Barnes took a central seat when the worst of humanity was scrutinised.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

​

'July 10, 2013'
'Mr Barnes said he passionately believed the coroner's office should be more closely allied to the police service than the Department of Public Prosecutions or the courts.

“The police and the coroner are both investigating how did the death occur, and then other agencies decide what should be the consequence of that conclusion,” he said.

“In my view coroners need, and in some cases should, get more involved in establishing the facts in suspicious cases.

“A number of lawyers all testing the same evidence are likely to find ways forward that wouldn't be available or immediately apparent to the officers who were initially involved in it and since have had to move on to other cases."'

 

[BFew]

I had some experience in a Coronial matter years ago, and I learnt that the Coroner is (surprisingly) quite limited in the way they can actually make findings and referrals.

In NSW?