List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part V

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 5

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[ScrappyDo]

A lot of Tassie's draft concessions are in the "must be traded" variety. So its an equity safety blanket.

Everything points to our current plan having two years to work.

Perhaps, but if things turn to shit a couple of 3rd round picks isn't gonna do much for us (TBD on next year of course).
It's more than likely there's no reason for it.

 

[The Punter]

Perhaps, but if things turn to shit a couple of 3rd round picks isn't gonna do much for us (TBD on next year of course).
It's more than likely there's no reason for it.

That reason may be as simple as "that's what Melbourne and West Coast were willing to give us", but we took 2027 picks en masse and moved out 2025 and 2026 picks. It's not like we won 2027 picks in a packet of children's cereal.

 

[ScrappyDo]

That reason may be as simple as "that's what Melbourne and West Coast were willing to give us", but we took 2027 picks en masse and moved out 2025 and 2026 picks. It's not like we won 2027 picks in a packet of children's cereal.

Sure, but is about which is more likely. Chance or a plan.

 

[The Punter]

Sure, but is about which is more likely. Chance or a plan.

The list team are highly paid professionals. I'm leaning more towards plan considering the nature of some of the trades (the Ryan one sent out earlier picks for later picks).

 

[gringo2011]

Sliding doors.

But if we Landed Flanders at the end of 23 when we were right into him.

We probably never draft Wilson, which means we never do the pick slide with GWS over Leake. Which impacts our 2024 draft haul.

Wasn't he a free agent last year so could have had both and kept 7 this year? Maybe he was just out of contract and my memory is going.

 

[longtimesaint]

Wasn't he a free agent last year so could have had both and kept 7 this year? Maybe he was just out of contract and my memory is going.

I don’t think he has played long enough to achieve free agency status

 

[Joffaboy]

Just as an aside; Darley - continuous AFL club, Cobras aka Bacchus, they changed names a few times and aren't as great, so in that sense, you go Darley to play with better players mostly.

It's all Bacchus anyway, and people always forget Maddingley.

Duggan from WCE and Suban from Freo, both Bacchus Marsh lads.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

Perhaps, but if things turn to shit a couple of 3rd round picks isn't gonna do much for us (TBD on next year of course).
It's more than likely there's no reason for it.

One thing we can bank on since SOS and Lyon have returned is everything is planned and happens for a reason.

The 3rd picks would have a specific purpose - we just don't know what it is yet.

 

[Joffaboy]

I find all that weird because I didn't think we got the indigenous support crew in intelligence much later, during Lethlean's reign. Maybe I'm misremembering.

By "obscure supporter groups" do you mean gay people and their friends? I can't think who else his policies targetted. I thought the Pride match was a good initiative for a club desperate for more supporter and attendance, especially one with links to the suburbs of St Kilda. It probably didn't have much of an effect really but I'm sure the LGBT community were happy with any club actually welcoming them to games. Not convinced it had any detracting effect on our efforts to be a better footy team, I doubt the budget for the Pride match stuff was that significant, but maybe im wrong. If that's who you were talking about, it's a but weird to say "who traditionally had no interest in footy"- do you think they have no interest or they don't want the negative attention?

Maybe it didn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things but you never know the full effect something like that has until later...

The second part of your post I can absolutely get behind, the coaches and training seemed pretty half-arsed by all reports, and once again not enough rigour was applied from the top. That is an indictment not only on Finnis and Richardson and Lethlean and Ratten and Rath and all the clowns under them but also on Westaway and the board that just let it happen. A lot of us that didnt get to the club and see it first hand thought they were serious at the time, but it turns out they weren't, not really.

So i agree that we should have focused on footy, but I think we were, we just couldn't get the right coaches in. Ross might not be everything, and I believe in what hes building, but if im weong and nothing goes right and its another false dawn, at the very least he made the training environment professional. Its crazy that it took that long, but im doubtful that its not because we were holding off on the footy stuff because we cared more about being inclusive.

Just on the training at the time with Richo to Ratts, I didn't see much change, main coaches standing about while others seemed to take drills, didn't get there as much those days but do remember watching when Crouch first turned up and thinking this training seems a bit laid back.
The training intensity and involvement was an exponential leap when I got down to watch Lyon led training. I could not believe the stark difference.
Finnis had his failings but to blithely say the state govt, the AFL and local council did it all apparently with no input from Finnis is laughable. Oh that's right he was actually a hinderance, if it wasn't for Dictator Dan and Saints supporter Gill, Finnis would have kept us at Seaford for ever.
The character assassination of the good things he achieved is farcical and pretty piss poor in my view.

 

[gringo2011]

100%

For all the recruits Max, Pou, hopefully some continuity in the bookends and a year of development of Windy, Nas (who only really broke out in the last 6-8 weeks of the season) will make the biggest difference.

Nas has been consistently building since being drafted and was already an incredible player. His Melbourne game helped elevate him to the elite status in the wider community but he was already pretty insanely good.

Windy probably had the biggest lift in performance of any Saint beside Nas and Hall even though he was coming off zero games so hard to compare. Windhager was also thrown around to back fill holes and had no consistent role.

I get the feeling Windy is going to be a quiet achiever who never gets the accolades he deserves because he does the grunt to let others shine. So much of Nas's best work was generated by Windhager getting his hands dirty so Nas could keep his space and feet.

 

[phantom13]

One thing we can bank on since SOS and Lyon have returned is everything is planned and happens for a reason.

The 3rd picks would have a specific purpose - we just don't know what it is yet.

I think strategy with draft picks especially with no 2 years futures trading isnt a science at all yet.

We clearly focused on improving this year and i reckon it was done with very little foresight to the 26/27 drafts.

As it stands we have 2026 1st, 3rd and 4th (enough to go to the draft or do a little bit with a trade, id suggest wed use the first next year as its a better draft and we have to use however many in a 3 year period unless something big is available) and 2027 is just where people were willing to give stuff over rather than any plan.

3rd rounders arent exactly a hot commodity.

 

[phantom13]

Nas has been consistently building since being drafted and was already an incredible player. His Melbourne game helped elevate him to the elite status in the wider community but he was already pretty insanely good.

Windy probably had the biggest lift in performance of any Saint beside Nas and Hall even though he was coming off zero games so hard to compare. Windhager was also thrown around to back fill holes and had no consistent role.

I get the feeling Windy is going to be a quiet achiever who never gets the accolades he deserves because he does the grunt to let others shine. So much of Nas's best work was generated by Windhager getting his hands dirty so Nas could keep his space and feet.

Windy is a proper glue guy IMO. Does the hard work, runs defensively harder than anyone, tackles, bumps, clears space.

Hes vital and looks like hell keep elevating.

 

[luca77]

I find all that weird because I didn't think we got the indigenous support crew in intelligence much later, during Lethlean's reign. Maybe I'm misremembering.

By "obscure supporter groups" do you mean gay people and their friends? I can't think who else his policies targetted. I thought the Pride match was a good initiative for a club desperate for more supporter and attendance, especially one with links to the suburbs of St Kilda. It probably didn't have much of an effect really but I'm sure the LGBT community were happy with any club actually welcoming them to games. Not convinced it had any detracting effect on our efforts to be a better footy team, I doubt the budget for the Pride match stuff was that significant, but maybe im wrong. If that's who you were talking about, it's a but weird to say "who traditionally had no interest in footy"- do you think they have no interest or they don't want the negative attention?

Maybe it didn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things but you never know the full effect something like that has until later...

The second part of your post I can absolutely get behind, the coaches and training seemed pretty half-arsed by all reports, and once again not enough rigour was applied from the top. That is an indictment not only on Finnis and Richardson and Lethlean and Ratten and Rath and all the clowns under them but also on Westaway and the board that just let it happen. A lot of us that didnt get to the club and see it first hand thought they were serious at the time, but it turns out they weren't, not really.

So i agree that we should have focused on footy, but I think we were, we just couldn't get the right coaches in. Ross might not be everything, and I believe in what hes building, but if im weong and nothing goes right and its another false dawn, at the very least he made the training environment professional. Its crazy that it took that long, but im doubtful that its not because we were holding off on the footy stuff because we cared more about being inclusive.

Absolutely. And I think it's a good point that St.Kilda as a suburb was a gathering place for people of all sexualities and walks of life. It's as much part of that area's identity as Footscray being working-class, Hawthorn being comfortable and family friendly, Melbourne being inner-suburban lawyer-types, Essendon being a place you'd only live if you really had to, Collingwood being a place you'd only pass through if you had to etc. Identity as a club is important to me, even though I started following the Saints because I could get to Moorabbin easily from Bentleigh.

As far as the indigenous work goes. We have probably the best reputation right now, as far as indigenous players wanting to come here. It was clearly a significant factor in Nas staying, which most people on here agree is one of the most significant things to happen to this club in a long time. I don't care how much time a BigFooty user thinks they spent at a club, there's no telling how valuable or otherwise the groundwork for our indigenous culture during the Finnis years was to the state we're in today.

But, honestly, the concept that working on these things takes away from a club's focus on, and ability to win football matches is about the most moronic, idiotic and nasty/despicable takes that I've regularly heard on social media. It's generally spouted on Facebook with spelling so appalling it's barely comprehensible, and it's really just an excuse to spout self-centered, hostile takes on society in a way that makes the spouter feel like they're not actually being a pr!ck.

We lost matches because of the end of the Lyon/Riewoldt era, the Watters debacle, the McCartin/Billings disasters, other woeful drafting, playing it safe after the Lovett and other incidents, crappy coaches, having our hands tied due to finances, Seaford and countless other tangible reasons. Finnis did his bit to help pull us out of that world into the situation we're in now, which is a pretty optimistic one. People who still blame him for the losses and want an excuse to dribble on with their anti-inclusive attitudes should try to be a bit better imo. It says a lot more about them than it does about Finnis.

 

[True Believer]

I think strategy with draft picks especially with no 2 years futures trading isnt a science at all yet.

We clearly focused on improving this year and i reckon it was done with very little foresight to the 26/27 drafts.

As it stands we have 2026 1st, 3rd and 4th (enough to go to the draft or do a little bit with a trade, id suggest wed use the first next year as its a better draft and we have to use however many in a 3 year period unless something big is available) and 2027 is just where people were willing to give stuff over rather than any plan.

3rd rounders arent exactly a hot commodity.

The science of trades/drafting 2 years out may not be refined yet (I think they're probably more advanced than Joe Public realises) but I still think there has been a definite plan in place - even if it is not fully formed yet, which I doubt is the case.

 

[phantom13]

Nas has been consistently building since being drafted and was already an incredible player. His Melbourne game helped elevate him to the elite status in the wider community but he was already pretty insanely good.

Windy probably had the biggest lift in performance of any Saint beside Nas and Hall even though he was coming off zero games so hard to compare. Windhager was also thrown around to back fill holes and had no consistent role.

I get the feeling Windy is going to be a quiet achiever who never gets the accolades he deserves because he does the grunt to let others shine. So much of Nas's best work was generated by Windhager getting his hands dirty so Nas could keep his space and feet.

Yeh i more meant his last 6-8 weeks showed the ability to move into the absolutely elite air of Bont and co. True single hand match winner, hes not gonna do that every week but we saw that his "floor" in that time was still 25+ and a goal and his ceiling is truly ****ed, probably the highest of anyone currently playing.

I think the biggest thing with him is that hes found his confidence now, the ability has always been there but i recall seeing in the Richmond game he ran past for a handball recieve (maybe from Heath) and got burned, stopped, then Heath realised who it was and gave him the ball.

Flat footed with two opponents within 5m of him he just took off and burned them both, took two steadying steps and laced a perfect little Rob Harvey inside 50m to Hall (i think).

I remember being in awe of it, most bloke wouldnt even dream of just going and burning off TWO defenders in front of them but he wasnt just confident he KNEW he could take them on and deliver.

 

[phantom13]

The science of trades/drafting 2 years out may not be refined yet (I think they're probably more advanced than Joe Public realises) but I still think there has been a definite plan in place - even if it is not fully formed yet, which I doubt is the case.

If youve seen or read much about player management and list management the opposite is true.

Its agricultural as ****, the player manager space especially is about as unprofessional and reactive as anything in professional sport youve ever seen.

 

[gringo2011]

Imagine if Pou could have a Nas like breakout? And King? We'd be freaking unstoppable

The organic internal growth inside the club is huge.

Players Elite to A grader- Wilkie, Nas, Hall, Marshall, Macrae, Sinclair

Players who could be Elite to A grade next season- King, Flanders, TDK, Windhager, Phillipou, Snags, Wilson, Garcia, Owens, Ryan.

Players with big growth potential- Boxshall, Tauru, Travaglia, Hastie, Said, Dodson, LOC, Collard, Keeler, Hammer.

Solid citizens that could have big years still- JSOS, Wood, Hill, Dow, Henry, Sharman, Howard, Stoker, Clark, Butler, Byrnes.

If we could ever get a good injury run and a bit of luck with the fixture we really could have massive improvement. Just the thought of potentially having up to 16 players that could be playing at an A grade level is so bizarre after we were lucky to find 2 in the Richo era.

 

[stavro#4]

Wasn't he a free agent last year so could have had both and kept 7 this year? Maybe he was just out of contract and my memory is going.

Just out of contract.

Was always going to require a trade.

 

[Diehard Saint]

The list team are highly paid professionals. I'm leaning more towards plan considering the nature of some of the trades (the Ryan one sent out earlier picks for later picks).

They planned for three years for this year’s trade time. I’m agreeing with you - definitely planning ahead.

 

[Xxxx66]

Nas has been consistently building since being drafted and was already an incredible player. His Melbourne game helped elevate him to the elite status in the wider community but he was already pretty insanely good.

Windy probably had the biggest lift in performance of any Saint beside Nas and Hall even though he was coming off zero games so hard to compare. Windhager was also thrown around to back fill holes and had no consistent role.

I get the feeling Windy is going to be a quiet achiever who never gets the accolades he deserves because he does the grunt to let others shine. So much of Nas's best work was generated by Windhager getting his hands dirty so Nas could keep his space and feet.

You're right. Amazing when watching Naz's highlight reel, how often Windy was involved in the chain

 

[CaptainRisky]

I felt unsafe the stadium was shaking so much

It wasn't the grandstand shaking it was you just like everyone else that was at that game was shaking, What a night

 

[TheJackal]

I understand the pull to a team you barracked for as a child, its not everything, but its definitely a consideration - TDK, Higgins, Jones, there's examples of it happening.

Anyway, the reason I bring it up is Bulldogs was Butters' team, so they are at an advantage. Having said that, I get so over the fact that there is this notion that Geelong and Bulldogs are the only options due proximity to Darley and his family home.

Even if Butters was to specifically live in Darley, these are the travel times to Melbourne clubs.

Darley to:

The Hangar - 38 minutes
Whitten Oval - 38 minutes
Arden St - 44 minutes
Iron Park - 46 minutes
AIA Centre - 46 minutes
GMHBA - 55 minutes
RSEA Park - 69 minutes
Dingley Tip - 73 minutes
Casey Fields - 85 minutes

Geelong vs St Kilda is negligible, Geelong are 6th on the list which actually surprised me. I'm not sure of the impact the new link roads are going to make, but if anything it will make us even closer again.

 

[Geezington]

Was watching this the other night.

Abit of figjam big balls leave it to me attitude about him

I bet Ned doesn’t make his bed.

he’s going to change our midfield completely, he’s like Brad crouch on meth, tough, clean and does some freakish things around goals, he’s also abit taller then listed aswell I think he’s listed at 181 but I’d say he’s about 185

 

[SaintsofSteel]

If youve seen or read much about player management and list management the opposite is true.

Its agricultural as ****, the player manager space especially is about as unprofessional and reactive as anything in professional sport youve ever seen.

The recruiters start watching and analysing the kids at 15yo and know everything about them when they get to their draft year.

Its ignorant to believe List Managers in charge of 42 players and millions of dollars in caps etc aren't well planned and have strategic and financial plans and contingencies that span years ahead.

Player Managers are a poorly regulated industry so anything is possible there. You only have to look at the recent issue Pendlebury had with his manager.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Clohesy & Stevens delisted by Geelong