Anthony Albanese - How long? -3-

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

Well it sounds like Lockheed Martin and the US government have us by the short and curlies. What an appalling situation to have allowed ourselves to be in.

I don't know what other viable options were available.

Up our spend to 5-10% (or even more) of GDP on defence spending and go at it alone? I doubt anyone would have voted for this. Or go with the Eurofighter? Logistically a challenge at the time. Also, when the F35 deal with signed in 2002, no one could have predicted what's happened in Gaza since October 2023.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I don't know what other viable options were available.

Up our spend to 5-10% (or even more) of GDP on defence spending and go at it alone? I doubt anyone would have voted for this. Or go with the Eurofighter? Logistically a challenge at the time. Also, when the F35 deal with signed in 2002, no one could have predicted what's happened in Gaza since October 2023.

Yeah, who could have possibly predicted that a war plane would be used to kill people.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I don't know what other viable options were available.

Up our spend to 5-10% (or even more) of GDP on defence spending and go at it alone? I doubt anyone would have voted for this. Or go with the Eurofighter? Logistically a challenge at the time. Also, when the F35 deal with signed in 2002, no one could have predicted what's happened in Gaza since October 2023.

You may be right that there’s no choice but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s an appalling situation to be in.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Welcome to the reality of the global arms industry. Where the international sale of major defence platforms is inexorably tied to the geo-political aims of the major supply nation.

It's why the long term consequences of the Morrison Government scrapping of the French submarine project in favour of a US led nuclear powered solution is far more about strategic politics than it is about capability.

Like I say, appalling.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

So Labor numbers man Richo has shuffled off.

I don’t know that he was the most corrupt politician we’ve seen, but he was certainly one of the more cynical; exactly the sort of “leader” we need far fewer of.

 

[Festerz]

So Labor numbers man Richo has shuffled off.

I don’t know that he was the most corrupt politician we’ve seen, but he was certainly one of the more cynical; exactly the sort of “leader” we need far fewer of.

You're right. Richo was politely described as a numbers man. Every political party has them, including the Greens. The reality is that these behind the scenes 'toe cutters' and factional heads work behind the scenes in relation to pre-selection and treasured party leadership positions to force loyalty to their party and control who gets to lead and who doesn't.

To be clear I've never been a member of any political party, but I'm not naive enough to think that political party loyalties don't rely on such 'skills'.

You mentioned 'leader'

From what I've seen, one of the core skills of political leadership - in any party in any country and any system - is to distance yourself publicly from the nastiness of those 'cynical' types who got you there.

Not here to defend the work of Graham Richardson or any of these numbers men/women who dominate the backrooms of politics. That they exist is why I could never/will never be a part of any political party despite my strong views and interest in politics.

I just think that on their death it seems both disrespectful and naive that their legacy bears the brunt of criticism for doing the nasty political work of others.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You're right. Richo was politely described as a numbers man. Every political party has them, including the Greens. The reality is that these behind the scenes 'toe cutters' and factional heads work behind the scenes in relation to pre-selection and treasured party leadership positions to force loyalty to their party and control who gets to lead and who doesn't.

To be clear I've never been a member of any political party, but I'm not naive enough to think that political party loyalties don't rely on such 'skills'.

You mentioned 'leader'

From what I've seen, one of the core skills of political leadership - in any party in any country and any system - is to distance yourself publicly from the nastiness of those 'cynical' types who got you there.

Not here to defend the work of Graham Richardson or any of these numbers men/women who dominate the backrooms of politics. That they exist is why I could never/will never be a part of any political party despite my strong views and interest in politics.

I just think that on their death it seems both disrespectful and naive that their legacy bears the brunt of criticism for doing the nasty political work of others.

Yes well I have higher expectations of what our fellow humans are capable of together.

 

[RedOrWhite]

Yes well I have higher expectations of what our fellow humans are capable of together.

As do I, but as a result get called all sorts by most for calling it out.

 

[Festerz]

Yes well I have higher expectations of what our fellow humans are capable of together.

Higher expectations than who? Me?

Yes well, no idea of your experience in life but guessing you would be wrong if you think your expectations are higher than mine of what we should 'expect' from 'fellow humans'.

Maybe I just have a better life experience of the gap between expectations and reality. And an understanding that making changes for the better comes from accepting the latter while aiming for the former - especially when it comes to politics.

Unless of course you think demonstrative hand wringing actually achieves something.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Higher expectations than who? Me?

Yes well, no idea of your experience in life but guessing you would be wrong if you think your expectations are higher than mine of what we should 'expect' from 'fellow humans'.

I may be an idealist, but I’d ask, without ideals, what point is there to existence.

 

[Festerz]

I may be an idealist, but I’d ask, without ideals, what point is there to existence.

Have you thought about being a poet?

 

[GrayRanga]

Yes well I have higher expectations of what our fellow humans are capable of together.

You have lived a protected life haven't you? No work colleagues? Home schooled so you never had to put up with bullies?

As PJ Keating once said 'In the race of life, always back self-interest - at least you know it’s trying'.

I'm an old greyhaired cynical. sarcastic, sardonic, sot and work on the principle that any interaction with a person that steps outside self interest is a win. Nice if it happens, but never expect it as a birth right

Sometimes, you have to rely on a pragmatic minor win or a tactical loss or a head kicker or numbers man to make some movement

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You have lived a protected life haven't you? No work colleagues? Home schooled so you never had to put up with bullies?

As PJ Keating once said 'In the race of life, always back self-interest - at least you know it’s trying'.

I'm an old greyhaired cynical. sarcastic, sardonic, sot and work on the principle that any interaction with a person that steps outside self interest is a win. Nice if it happens, but never expect it as a birth right

Sometimes, you have to rely on a pragmatic minor win or a tactical loss or a head kicker or numbers man to make some movement

Nah **** ‘em all. The only way we can achieve a decent society is by first being decent human beings.

 

[GrayRanga]

Nah **** ‘em all. The only way we can achieve a decent society is by first being decent human beings.

Decent human being?

And yet you say the basis of a decent society is when all those that hold different perspective than you can go and get ****ed?

Hold your self in high esteem much?

 

[Dont_be_a_Plonka]

Nah **** ‘em all. The only way we can achieve a decent society is by first being decent human beings.

Incorrect.
The only way we can achieve a decent society is by first being in power

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Decent human being?

And yet you say the basis of a decent society is when all those that hold different perspective than you can go and get ****ed?

Hold your self in high esteem much?

I would have thought a mark of a decent human being is telling people who aren’t willing to be a decent human being to get ****ed. No-one’s forcing anyone to be an arseh*le.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Incorrect.
The only way we can achieve a decent society is by first being in power

Disagree. That’s a very narrow definition of power.

Charity begins at home.

 

[RedOrWhite]

Nah **** ‘em all. The only way we can achieve a decent society is by first being decent human beings.

I appreciate the sentiment and want a better society as much as you but the sociopaths in power won't give it up without a fight so from that perspective I agree with GreyRanga. They've engineered a military industrial complex that's making it's subordinates like Australia and the rest of NATO aligned countries complicit in genocide, regardless of the majority in our countries opposing the genocide and most other US led wars like Iraq.
That's why I'm outspoken at times, and refuse to make excuses for Labor and Dems like so many (not you as I've seen you are critical of them too), as they cozy up to it to stay in power, regardless of how many suffer as a result. And regardless of whether the other side is worse.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I appreciate the sentiment and want a better society as much as you but the sociopaths in power won't give it up without a fight so from that perspective I agree with GreyRanga. They've engineered a military industrial complex that's making it's subordinates like Australia and the rest of NATO aligned countries complicit in genocide, regardless of the majority in our countries opposing the genocide and most other US led wars like Iraq.
That's why I'm outspoken at times, and refuse to make excuses for Labor and Dems like so many (not you as I've seen you are critical of them too), as they cozy up to it to stay in power, regardless of how many suffer as a result. And regardless of whether the other side is worse.

Hmm David Pocock seems like a decent human being, in politics for the all right reasons. As a former Wallaby I don’t doubt he’s tough as nails.

We need to stop making excuses for cynics like Richo.

 

[RedOrWhite]

Hmm David Pocock seems like a decent human being, in politics for the all right reasons. As a former Wallaby I don’t doubt he’s tough as nails.

We need to stop making excuses for cynics like Richo.

I agree in general, and especially on Pocock, I loved him as a Rugby player too, he was as strong in the breakdown as he appears to be in his politics. And don't get me wrong, I despise powerbrokers like the old crank Richardson.
Dare I say, Pocock's got too much integrity to ever be in either major party, they'd chew him up and spit him out knowing all the shady shit they've got going on.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Dare I say, Pocock's got too much integrity to ever be in either major party, they'd chew him up and spit him out knowing all the shady shit they've got going on.

100%.

But the thing is, he actually wants to do something about that.

Did you see his Saturday Paper piece a few weeks ago about the 1,500 lobbyists in Parliament House with 24/7, AAA credentials, and no-one, including him, is entitled to know who they are.

Can you imagine the Richos of this world raising that as an issue?

Richo’d probably think that’s as it should be.

 

[RedOrWhite]

100%.

But the thing is, he actually wants to do something about that.

Did you see his Saturday Paper piece a few weeks ago about the 1,500 lobbyists in Parliament House with 24/7, AAA credentials, and no-one, including him, is entitled to know who they are.

Can you imagine the Richos of this world raising that as an issue?

Richo’d probably think that’s as it should be.

I didn't, but I have seen him on Punter's politics talk about it and that he and some of the Teals are putting forward legislation to at least have them credentialled and not given carte blanche to roam and harrass MP's without restraint. I'd go way further than that but it's something at least.

 

[Festerz]

Decent human being?

And yet you say the basis of a decent society is when all those that hold different perspective than you can go and get ****ed?

Hold your self in high esteem much?

C'mon now mate.

Some people are without flaws and so hold the righteous privilege of judging others on the day of their passing. Even if they themselves hold a simplistic and usually uninformed fairy tale and binary view of just about everything they comment on.

The same people who cheer the social achievements of previous governments that defined Australia such as Medicare, free university education and the protection of large swathes of Tasmanian Wilderness areas without having one iota of understanding of the ruthless political deals and backroom fighting that was needed to make them happen.

As the saying goes, the best way of escaping criticism is to say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

C'mon now mate.

Some people are without flaws and so hold the righteous privilege of judging others on the day of their passing. Even if they themselves hold a simplistic and usually uninformed fairy tale and binary view of just about everything they comment on.

The same people who cheer the social achievements of previous governments that defined Australia such as Medicare, free university education and the protection of large swathes of Tasmanian Wilderness areas without having one iota of understanding of the ruthless political deals and backroom fighting that was needed to make them happen.

As the saying goes, the best way of escaping criticism is to say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

Oh yes, we’re sooo naive.

I seem to have got your goat simply by stating that the cynical, clearly corrupt Graham Richardson was exactly the sort of politician we need fewer of. Let’s not forget, if he was “flawed”, he chose to be flawed.

Let’s agree to disagree and move on.

 

[The Punter]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/paul-keating-hails-graham-richardsons-distinguished-policy-roles-during-labors-reform-years/news-story/26aed4ad38d442830be06bf11f2d6ad9

Damn disappointing humans.