Religion Bondi shooting - 16 confirmed dead at Jewish event

[Johnny Bananas]

I'd deport anyone who hates our values. Why live here if you want to change it to something else, especially through violence? Just go live somewhere that aligns with your ideals instead.

Plenty of immigrants come here and assimilate into our way of life just fine, after all.

I just wondered if you had any condition on how far back their ancestry has to go to be eligible for deportation, like 10571z seems to. If ancestry isn't a criterion, just incompatible ideology, well I still wouldn't support such a drastic step, but I have fewer problems with it in that case.

 

[Rob R]

The son was on a terrorism watch list and people are speaking about tightening gun laws…

He obviously did things to alert the authority’s. Should have had a one way ticket back to the Middle East.

The son was born here so a citizen and can't be deported. If the father was on the watch list he could and should have been deported as a non citizen .

 

[schneebly111]

Looks like the result of the National Cabinet is a strengthening of the National Firearms Agreement. Stricter laws, and probably a ban on straight pull rifles is my guess.

Having a look at some videos of straight pull rifles if skilled you can get off shots almost as fast as a semi auto. They need to be banned immediately.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Sure but it was a vigil for those who died, not a gathering to show solidarity for Israel.

Was there a French flag being flown too, for the French victim? Because if not, then there was no reason for an Israeli flag either. One victim was from Israel, but one was from France, and most were Australian.

 

[bzparkes]

"Progressives need to be open to debate."
"Not like that!"

So much for the open marketplace of ideas.

So it's fine to go and scream at someone's funeral to 'express your ideas' then?

Gee whiz....

This is irrelevant to the argument being made: that progressives are not open to debate.

Do you genuinely think screaming at a bunch of people holding a vigil for people who just got murdered is a forum for an open debate?

Do you think she had any interest in 'debating' whatsoever?

Either progressives are open to debate and any time is appropriate, or you cannot have a debate at a vigil because there's an appropriate time and place for a debate and this isn't it and people should cease using this for point scoring against progressives.

Screaming about a flag at a vigil for the deceased isn't a 'debate' and it certainly doesn't strengthen your position.

It makes the people you are trying to engage with hate you even more due to how disrespectful you are.

You cannot have it two ways any more than Stumpy Pete can.

Then why suggest it?

... thoughtcrime? We're criminalising thoughts now?

At some point, espousing strong sounding yet utterly impossible - without even discussing how reprehensible some of them are - opinions about real world problems will start to wear a little thin, BZ.

'Engaging in criminal behaviour related to terrorism'

Not sure where you got 'thoughtcrime' from there?

 

[Bloods86]

Just answer the question please: Do Christians shoot up Mosques and slaughter Muslims, or other Christians, on a weekly basis?

Yes or no?

It's not more 'nuanced' than that.

It is more nuanced than that, as much as you'd like it to be simple.

In terms of recent attacks, there is more violence carried out by professing Muslims than professing Christians. At least with an apparent religious motive.

This has no bearing on how Muslims should be treated, unless they give individual reasons otherwise.

Christians would say that certain acts of violence carried out by professing Christians is not really Christian. Same goes for Muslims.

 

[bzparkes]

I just wondered if you had any condition on how far back their ancestry has to go to be eligible for deportation, like 10571z seems to. If ancestry isn't a criterion, just incompatible ideology, well I still wouldn't support such a drastic step, but I have fewer problems with it in that case.

If people are completely incompatible with a country's culture and way of life, then they should move onto somewhere that they are compatible with.

If they don't have the means to do so, happy for the government to help them out in certain cases.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Netanyahu, the latent war criminal. lecturing the Australian government was nothing short of appalling.
Political point-scoring at its lowest.

Has a go at Albanese for “letting antisemitism fester” yet what exactly did he do up to October 7?

 

[bzparkes]

It is more nuanced than that, as much as you'd like it to be simple.

In terms of recent attacks, there is more violence carried out by professing Muslims than professing Christians. At least with an apparent religious motive.

This has no bearing on how Muslims should be treated, unless they give individual reasons otherwise.

Christians would say that certain acts of violence carried out by professing Christians is not really Christian. Same goes for Muslims.

So there's more violence carried out by radical Muslims than radical Christians worldwide?

Thanks for confirming.

The saddest part of this is most attacks are actually carried out on other Muslims over ideological differences.

 

[Sphynx]

Are you also in favour of deporting Anglo Australian citizens who have committed crimes back to Britain, even if they've never been there?

A fair bit of stereotyping and casual racism on your behalf there also tbh.

 

[bzparkes]

Was there a French flag being flown too, for the French victim? Because if not, then there was no reason for an Israeli flag either. One victim was from Israel, but one was from France, and most were Australian.

They're Jews. Why wouldn't they fly their own flag?

Plenty of Australian flags flown at vigils after the Bali bombings, as I recall.

 

[Balls In]

Looks like the result of the National Cabinet is a strengthening of the National Firearms Agreement. Stricter laws, and probably a ban on straight pull rifles is my guess.

Having a look at some videos of straight pull rifles if skilled you can get off shots almost as fast as a semi auto. They need to be banned immediately.

Predictable deflection from a colossal government policy failure. Australians need to be told exactly who these bastards were, their online footprint, if they known to the ADF, who they hang out with, how they got here, how they got their guns. Deflecting this to a "gun" issue is NOT ****ing good enough.

 

[10571z]

Looks like the result of the National Cabinet is a strengthening of the National Firearms Agreement. Stricter laws, and probably a ban on straight pull rifles is my guess.

Having a look at some videos of straight pull rifles if skilled you can get off shots almost as fast as a semi auto. They need to be banned immediately.

I mean how a person on a student visa was able to obtain a gun license should probably be addressed first

 

[evolved2]

Christianity has been used to justify violence for many centuries, millennia even, on a massive and global scale. This continues in some parts of the world against minorities. There's a reason why it's the most populous religion and it's not just by letting others see their good works and hear peaceful evangelism.

We can pretend we're being reasonable by saying it's not a competition and then upend that by pretending one religion has a unique association with violence.

Or we can realise the problem with any religion is extremism, react to that fact, and not let it affect how we perceive the many followers who have nothing to do with it.

Nope. Some delusions are worse than others.

There's a happy medium between Christianity and secularism in the West. Islam is a very different proposition.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If people are completely incompatible with a country's culture and way of life, then they should move onto somewhere that they are compatible with.

If they don't have the means to do so, happy for the government to help them out in certain cases.

But that's not what was being discussed. We were talking about the forcible deportation of people, whether it's their wish to go or not. Are in you favour of forcing people to go, or just encouraging them? And will these countries be happy to accept the people, or just immediately deport them? Everything is perfect if we can impose our will on others, it gets harder when there has to be buy-in from multiple parties.

 

[MrBarry]

It is more nuanced than that, as much as you'd like it to be simple.

In terms of recent attacks, there is more violence carried out by professing Muslims than professing Christians. At least with an apparent religious motive.

This has no bearing on how Muslims should be treated, unless they give individual reasons otherwise.

Christians would say that certain acts of violence carried out by professing Christians is not really Christian. Same goes for Muslims.

However you want to spin it there are elements to the Islamic faith that make it more prone to extremism than others.

 

[Bloods86]

So there's more violence carried out by radical Muslims than radical Christians worldwide?

Thanks for confirming.

The saddest part of this is most attacks are actually carried out on other Muslims over ideological differences.

Recently yes, with an apparent religious motive.

 

[Chief]

If people are completely incompatible with a country's culture and way of life, then they should move onto somewhere that they are compatible with.

If they don't have the means to do so, happy for the government to help them out in certain cases.

You've fully integrated with Australian Aboriginal culture?

 

[bzparkes]

But that's not what was being discussed. We were talking about the forcible deportation of people, whether it's their wish to go or not. Are in you favour of forcing people to go, or just encouraging them? And will these countries be happy to accept the people, or just immediately deport them? Everything is perfect if we can impose our will on others, it gets harder when there has to be buy-in from multiple parties.

Of course there'll be barriers but what's the alternative?

Let ticking timebombs walk our streets?

Something has to be done. What's the point of having someone on a watchlist for 6 years when they then go and murder a bunch of people at the beach?

We then get the 'Say the line Bart' statement of 'He was known to authorities' time and time again.

 

[Markfs]

Although I dont like Netanyahu......It's not unusual for overseas leaders to criticise foreign countries when their citizens are killed...

 

[bzparkes]

You've fully integrated with Australian Aboriginal culture?

Is that on the citizenship test?

 

[Sphynx]

You've fully integrated with Australian Aboriginal culture?

All religion and culture is evil, remember…

 

[Johnny Bananas]

They're Jews. Why wouldn't they fly their own flag?

Because it isn't the flag of global Jews. It's the flag of Israel, a independent state that is not entirely populated by Jews, and does not contain the entirety of global Jews. You're essentially saying all Australian Jews should consider the Israeli flag to be "their own flag", not the Australian one.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

And we’re supposed to believe she’s actually Jewish. If so she’s a traitor to her people

No, it is the likes of Benjamin Netanyahu who is all but ensuring that Israel's legacy is one of hate and guaranteeing that the only Jewish nation on earth is despised. He and all who back him are not just traitors to their kind, but traitors to our common humanity.

 

[Gethelred]

So it's fine to go and scream at someone's funeral to 'express your ideas' then?

Gee whiz....

Do you genuinely think screaming at a bunch of people holding a vigil for people who just got murdered is a forum for an open debate?

Do you think she had any interest in 'debating' whatsoever?

Screaming about a flag at a vigil for the deceased isn't a 'debate' and it certainly doesn't strengthen your position.

It makes the people you are trying to engage with hate you even more due to how disrespectful you are.

Not a single response here actually addresses the complaint being made.

If you want to concede the point - which would be easy to do - then I'd be more than willing to say that there's a correct time and place for political protest and a vigil the day after a terrorist attack is not that place. Until you - and Stumpy Pete - are willing to make that concession, I'm not moving.

'Engaging in criminal behaviour related to terrorism'

Not sure where you got 'thoughtcrime' from there?

Here:

... lock them up until they change their mind about things, however long that may take.

The pretext for sending them to prison - illegal action - might be perfectly reasonable, but keeping someone in prison indefinitely because their thoughts are wrong is absolutely dystopian.