Are we ruthless enough?

[iameviljez]

If asked at the end of 2006, would you have traded Ablett Senior as a Cat (pretend he played at Hawthorn his whole career) for a single flag in the 90s? Let's assume just one deep finals run with a flag - Richmond of that era kind of mediocrity for the other 20 years.

Yes. Would have sold our whole 90s history for a single flag at that time.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I agree, but Hawks fans see it differently, of course.
And how would we have gained a flag in his era without him?

Hawks fans got their own generational stars they fell head over heels for in dunstall matthews.

 

[Catman]

I tread very gently don't worry.....I haven't met a more fervent, adoring, rabid Hawthorn fan in my life

You must have enjoyed Prelim night?

 

[The rabbi]

It is tough to argue
But they were shit for 50 years before that

And have been the most successful club in the competition in the last 55 years.

 

[Commando]

And have been the most successful club in the competition in the last 55 years.

That's why I said it's tough to argue
But it's where you draw the line isn't it.

This generation would say Essendon are rubbish
Go back another 20 years they are a genuine powerhouse

 

[Partridge]

That's why I said it's tough to argue
But it's where you draw the line isn't it.

This generation would say Essendon are rubbish
Go back another 20 years they are a genuine powerhouse

All supporters tend to be extremely selective about where and especially when history starts and ends. Sport is cyclical, and always has been. If you'd told Carlton fans on Grand final night in 1995 they'd be waiting at least thirty years until their next flag you would have been met with hysterical laughter (and it's been glorious to see). Essendon are now in their longest ever drought as well. Doesn't mean both don't have magnificent records over time because they do.

You just have to hope you take advantage of having a top side and nab some flags, and don't have too long a drought when you're crap. Like just about every other side we've done both.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Question for those here…

Would you happily erase Garry ablett senior as a geelong player in exchange for a single premiership during his playing era??

Erasing Garry Ablett Senior as a player? We wouldn't notice! Gary Ablett on the other hand... Tough question. I think Gazza brought more joy to behold his individual talent over more than a decade that a team Premiership would have in one year.

So yeah nah, I'd keep Gazza Senior. Plus we'd never get not one but two father/son picks!

 

[Partridge]

Erasing Garry Ablett Senior as a player? We wouldn't notice! Gary Ablett on the other hand... Tough question. I think Gazza brought more joy to behold his individual talent over more than a decade that a team Premiership would have in one year.

So yeah nah, I'd keep Gazza Senior. Plus we'd never get not one but two father/son picks!

There was nothing more enjoyable, scintillating, or exciting than going to watch Gary Ablett senior. There have been many very good players or course, and some rare great ones - Carey and Lockett were utterly brilliant as well. But for the complete package I don't think anyone has come close. And with modern coaching and defensive attitudes that are drilled into players, I doubt you'll see anything like it again anytime soon either.

 

[Hinkley29]

And have been the most successful club in the competition in the last 55 years.

Define success.

My definition of success and yours could (and likely would) be very different.

For example, I would not swap Geelong’s results of the last 20 years with any other club in the country. Not Brisbane, not Hawthorn. Or anyone else.

 

[The rabbi]

Define success.

My definition of success and yours could (and likely would) be very different.

For example, I would not swap Geelong’s results of the last 20 years with any other club in the country. Not Brisbane, not Hawthorn. Or anyone else.

I think that your truncated view of footy history is designed to lessen Hawthorn's achievements. Even if we count only the last 20 years, Hawthorn is at least our equal. I love Geelong and I am born and bred in this town, but I cannot bullship myself about the club's achievements when compared with other clubs.

Hawthorn's recent history is equal to ours, and in some ways better. They have managed to win 3 flags on the trot. We have not managed back to go back to back for just shy of 75 years. Hawthorn has won more premierships than Geelong, and have not been in the competition as long as we have. You may choose to delude yourself, that's your choice. I prefer to look at VFL/AFL history and face it honestly.

 

[Mr Meow]

I think that your truncated view of footy history is designed to lessen Hawthorn's achievements. Even if we count only the last 20 years, Hawthorn is at least our equal. I love Geelong and I am born and bred in this town, but I cannot bullship myself about the club's achievements when compared with other clubs.

Hawthorn's recent history is equal to ours, and in some ways better. They have managed to win 3 flags on the trot. We have not managed back to go back to back for just shy of 75 years. Hawthorn has won more premierships than Geelong, and have not been in the competition as long as we have. You may choose to delude yourself, that's your choice. I prefer to look at VFL/AFL history and face it honestly.

It's such a pointless thing to care about. Comparison being the thief of joy and all that. Regardless of whether club x has done y, we've had a damn enthralling (including heartbreaks and near misses) club to follow over the past 40 odd years. More often than not, daring to dream March-September each year and having every game matter.

MORE, MORE, MORE premierships would have been spectacular - sure. We've still been very lucky.

 

[The rabbi]

It's such a pointless thing to care about. Comparison being the thief of joy and all that. Regardless of whether club x has done y, we've had a damn enthralling (including heartbreaks and near misses) club to follow over the past 40 odd years. More often than not, daring to dream March-September each year and having every game matter.

MORE, MORE, MORE premierships would have been spectacular - sure. We've still been very lucky.

Yes, we as Geelong supporters have been lucky in the last 2 decades. In the 44 years prior the 2007 flag, it was pretty thin.
And my post addressed a "comparison". It is a fact that Hawthorn have had a superior result in the history of the AFL/VFL, and are at least our equal in the last 20 years. And in the two Grand Finals that I have personally witnessed at the MCG between Hawthorn and Geelong, we are 0-2. Hawthorn have been the more successful club and we need to be honest about it. Or at least, I want to be honest about it.

 

[Mr Meow]

Yes, we as Geelong supporters have been lucky in the last 2 decades. In the 44 years prior the 2007 flag, it was pretty thin.
And my post addressed a "comparison". It is a fact that Hawthorn have had a superior result in the history of the AFL/VFL, and are at least our equal in the last 20 years. And in the two Grand Finals that I have personally witnessed at the MCG between Hawthorn and Geelong, we are 0-2. Hawthorn have been the more successful club and we need to be honest about it. Or at least, I want to be honest about it.

He said he wouldn't trade Geelong's last 20 years with any other club. That can be read at many levels, none of which need an aggressive and pedantic takedown.

If most of your life as a passionate supporter has been from '89 to now, you have had a hell of a ride and had reason to care late in most Septembers. That doesn't mean too much if you're a St Kilda and NEVER win the damn premiership, but we have had the past 20 years enjoying life without that burden (with apologies to our '63 era supporting veterans...but they did live the whole drought thereafter).

Glass half full is that we've had a successful and competitive team for a while now. Glass half empty is "I NEED EVERYBODY TO ADMIT THIS CLUB AND THAT CLUB WERE MORE SUCCESSFUL".

 

[The rabbi]

No, it is just being honest with footy history and not playing the biased cheer boy.

 

[Mr Meow]

No, it is just being honest with footy history and not playing the biased cheer boy.

A tiresome act indeed. Grow up.

 

[The rabbi]

A tiresome act indeed. Grow up.

Actually, I would suggest that those who deny history, or truncate it to support their biased opinions need to grow up.

How about trying to deal with the argument instead of trying to frame my argument as aggressive or pedantic?
I stand by my argument that Hawthorn's history in the last two decades is equal to ours, if not better, and their overall history is superior. I find the way Geelong supporters look at history through biased, rose colored, glasses rather tiring and immature.

 

[Mr Meow]

Actually, I would suggest that those who deny history, or truncate it to support their biased opinions need to grow up.

How about trying to deal with the argument instead of trying to frame my argument as aggressive or pedantic?
I stand by my argument that Hawthorn's history in the last two decades is equal to ours, if not better, and their overall history is superior. I find the way Geelong supporters look at history through biased, rose colored, glasses rather tiring and immature.

My argument is that someone saying:

"I would not swap Geelong’s results of the last 20 years with any other club in the country. Not Brisbane, not Hawthorn. Or anyone else."

Is not worth screaming at them over. If you would rather have Hawthorn's history over that period then it's your right and something I wouldn't scream at you over either.

It certainly sounds like you are ruthless enough. Angry enough. I hope you find a bit of peace as we have had a great ride and satisfying (not perfect) modern era. But let's get worked up over how naive, biased and immature Geelong supporters are because it's fun to be furious!

 

[The rabbi]

My argument is that someone saying:

"I would not swap Geelong’s results of the last 20 years with any other club in the country. Not Brisbane, not Hawthorn. Or anyone else."

Is not worth screaming at them over. If you would rather have Hawthorn's history over that period then it's your right and something I wouldn't scream at you over either.

It certainly sounds like you are ruthless enough. Angry enough. I hope you find a bit of peace as we have had a great ride and satisfying (not perfect) modern era. But let's get worked up over how naive, biased and immature Geelong supporters are because it's fun to be furious!

There you go again. Can you present an argument rather than pursue ad hominem attacks?
And trying to frame me as someone who is not at peace, or furious is nonsense.
Although I do have a strong dislike for when people try to pass off Bovine excrement as an argument.
If you cannot refute the evidence that I have presented, then you should do the honorable thing and stand down.

 

[Hinkley29]

I think that your truncated view of footy history is designed to lessen Hawthorn's achievements. Even if we count only the last 20 years, Hawthorn is at least our equal. I love Geelong and I am born and bred in this town, but I cannot bullship myself about the club's achievements when compared with other clubs.

Hawthorn's recent history is equal to ours, and in some ways better. They have managed to win 3 flags on the trot. We have not managed back to go back to back for just shy of 75 years. Hawthorn has won more premierships than Geelong, and have not been in the competition as long as we have. You may choose to delude yourself, that's your choice. I prefer to look at VFL/AFL history and face it honestly.

Talk about an overreach.

I asked a simple question - what is your definition of success? If it is purely premiership wins then that is very different to my definition.

I look at it way more nuanced than that. Premierships are great and the ultimate goal, but you can’t ignore the negative impacts of vast periods of irrelevance. In the last 20 years, Hawthorn have gone through periods where they have been completely irrelevant and downright unwatchable. Brisbane have arguably had an even worse record in this regard.

How many games have Hawthorn and Brisbane played when that were completely meaningless (ie. they had no chance to make finals, even worse when it was in their interests to lose the game)? There were plenty.

There were multiple seasons where it was basically pointless (and depressing) to be a Hawthorn or Brisbane fan when the teams were either terrible or actively trying to avoid winning. That cannot be discounted.

We have never had to experience that, and I value that fact very highly.

In his entire career Joel Selwood played in one game when he had no chance to make finals. Every game bar one in his entire career had something riding on it.

As I said before, I would not swap out record, our warts and all record, with that of hawthorn or Brisbane. In totality, being a Geelong fan has consistently been a way more enjoyable experience than being a hawthorn or Brisbane fan. That to me is the definition of success.

I am not bullshipping myself, I am being completely honest. It is you that is bullshipping yourself by completely ignoring vast tracts of hawthorn and brisbanes recent history when they were unwatchable.

 

[Mr Meow]

There you go again. Can you present an argument rather than pursue ad hominem attacks?
And trying to frame me as someone who is not at peace, or furious is nonsense.
Although I do have a strong dislike for when people try to pass off Bovine excrement as an argument.
If you cannot refute the evidence that I have presented, then you should do the honorable thing and stand down.

"I would not swap Geelong’s results of the last 20 years with any other club in the country. Not Brisbane, not Hawthorn. Or anyone else."

My argument is that above is a perfectly valid viewpoint. This is the statement that made you blow up. It can be applied to the whole AFL era but I would still not aggressively dismiss somebody who thinks otherwise.

I've never made a statement that Geelong has been the most successful club over any time period and it is something I couldn't care less about. We are talking about the journey as supporters and what the club has given us in this thread of the discussion.

Even with the heartbreaks and near misses, it's been a hell of a ride for near 40 years. Only the '98-'03 period where we weren't a strong and revelant side giving us cause to dream (and that was part of a successful rebuild).

I stepped in because you basically said someone's viewpoint was invalid, and that behaviour is beneath you.

 

[you pick one]

Actually, I would suggest that those who deny history, or truncate it to support their biased opinions need to grow up.

How about trying to deal with the argument instead of trying to frame my argument as aggressive or pedantic?
I stand by my argument that Hawthorn's history in the last two decades is equal to ours, if not better, and their overall history is superior. I find the way Geelong supporters look at history through biased, rose colored, glasses rather tiring and immature.

I'd suggest the Hawks had a bit of assistance over the last 50 odd years starting with zoning there were winners and losers in that flawed system they also availed themselves of some handy priority picks that were more than handy while the Cats are among only 2 or 3 teams not to yet have to need that charity we have never had to sell our soul and relocate games to Tasmania consider merging with Melbourne no we had some lean years but the Cats picked themselves up and dusted themself off and got on with business . I think our history stacks up pretty bloody well.

 

[The rabbi]

I'd suggest the Hawks had a bit of assistance over the last 50 odd years starting with zoning there were winners and losers in that flawed system they also availed themselves of some handy priority picks that were more than handy while the Cats are among only 2 or 3 teams not to yet have to need that charity we have never had to sell our soul and relocate games to Tasmania consider merging with Melbourne no we had some lean years but the Cats picked themselves up and dusted themself off and got on with business . I think our history stacks up pretty bloody well.

I don't disagree with you re: the zoning thing.
Carlton and Hawthorn had more productive zones. and I cannot understand why anyone would want to return to zones.
The draft is the fairest system, although I long for an uncompromised draft, but fear that I will never see one.

"I'd suggest the Hawks had a bit of assistance over the last 50 odd years starting with zoning..."

And supporters say much the same about Geelong's success from '07 to '22 with the Cats' acquisition of father and son recruits like Hawkins and the Ablett boys.

 

[you pick one]

I don't disagree with you re: the zoning thing.
Carlton and Hawthorn had more productive zones. and I cannot understand why anyone would want to return to zones.
The draft is the fairest system, although I long for an uncompromised draft, but fear that I will never see one.

"I'd suggest the Hawks had a bit of assistance over the last 50 odd years starting with zoning..."

And supporters say much the same about Geelong's success from '07 to '22 with the Cats' acquisition of father and son recruits like Hawkins and the Ablett boys.

Hawks had their chance to have had all the Abletts and blew it god bless them.

 

[The rabbi]

As I said before, I would not swap out record, our warts and all record, with that of hawthorn or Brisbane. In totality, being a Geelong fan has consistently been a way more enjoyable experience than being a hawthorn or Brisbane fan. That to me is the definition of success.

I am not bullshipping myself, I am being completely honest. It is you that is bullshipping yourself by completely ignoring vast tracts of hawthorn and brisbanes recent history when they were unwatchable.

I won't presume to know how old you are, but I can remember some very lean times, as well as some highly embarrassing Geelong loses.
I can also recall the times when opposition fans would mock Geelong as country bumpkins and suggest that we were not a serious club. Not to mention the "handbag" tag. Funny, we don't seem to hear that these days. We are now a top line professional club and opposition supporters hate The Cats for that very reason. I think that I can live with that.

But I can recall times when Geelong was unwatchable. But the thing with Hawthorn is that while they had their "droughts", if you can call them that, they bounced back quick to be a competitive club. In fact they have been able to snag a premiership in each of the last 6 decades.
I don't have a dog in the fight with respect to the Hawthorn footy club. To be completely honest, I hate them with a passion. And anyone on this forum who has had a beer with me prior to, or after a game, will be well aware of that. But yes, I would prefer to have been able to watch my team win 13 premierships and have a larger Grand Final win to loss ratio over my arch rival.

 

[The rabbi]

Hawks had their chance to have had all the Abletts and blew it god bless them.

Not to mention they had the chance to draft Joel Selwood at pick #6 and took Mitchell Thorp.
Even Wikipedia wants to have a dig at them over that one.

Mitchell Thorp, better known as Mitch Thorp, is an Australian rules football player who played for the Hawthorn Football Club in the Australian Football League.Thorp was a key position player, and was taken by Hawthorn at pick six in front of Joel Selwood 2006 National Draft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Thorp