Autopsy Saints v Dees

[austinnn]

I am watching the replay now, just finished the first half. My thoughts so far:

So far not too bad. Some great moments.

Silvagni, Wilkie, Wood, Hill, Flanders even Sincs with some costly **** ups - they certainly look like they've got the flu!

JVR has evolved, too fast for Hammer, unfortunately. This guy is someone the likes of Keeler should look at in terms of their next step.

We look good when we are in possession - but pretty poor without. Garcia, Phillipou, Wilson much better than Round 0. Higgins more involved too. Ryan with some lovely moments.

I get that Nas has a pretty unaccountable role since he re-signed but I think a little more attention to the opposition would help to focus him more. That said he wasn't really that bad, he and Hall are mercurial.

Carroll has been alright so far.

 

[Jade Buddha]

so much whinging!

(I haven't actually read most of the thread so probably repeating a bunch others have said.)

yeah, it's going to be a tough start to the season, that sux. I personally don't think we've been bad but we have been really unpolished and there aren't many easy games so that's hurt us.

but is it surprising? we're still pretty young. I thought Melbourne had a fairly young side but we were younger and less experienced than them.

I can see the potential in these kids but they're basically not performing yet:

• Keeler definitely isn't a player yet, any games he get are gifts to help him develop
• Tauru's very raw and we don't really need a 4th tall back
• Pou is improving every week and was on track for a good game - but yet another injury
• Boxy has big potential but isn't there yet, too many mistakes under pressure
• Carroll's disposal is probably too messy right now, has a lot of cleaning up to do, and just not enough impact
• Hugo goes about it in a really good way but still doesn't quite have the impact he needs to have
• Nas is learning about getting tagged, he'll get to the other side of it but it takes a bit of time
• Wilson is doing pretty well even if I think he could have more impact

none of these guys are older than 23.

not to mention Mitch and Windy who are both going well at just 22, Hammer who's doing ok at 22 in his second season at key back (but at the mercy of the midfield like all defenders), Maxy Hall who at 24 is looking like he should be a serious player, and Flanders who's still only 24 and I reckon is going fine despite still finding his place in the side.

and that's more than half the side.

if we're going to win games with a bunch of relatively inexperienced guys then the experienced players have to carry them.

so that's the real problem, as it has been for years. they're fine but not enough star power there to give the younger players a buffer. in the last two weeks we've basically been beaten by 10x AAs in Pendlebury and Gawn, serious all-time greats who we still allowed to play well.

we just don't have those guys. closest things are Sincs and Wilkie who are both going ok but aren't winning us games off their own boots. Macrae's playing 56% game time (which shows we're focused on the next generation), Hilly's going ok but has never been a one-man matchwinner, Wood's a great guy but is probably done (except that goal), Ryan will keep contributing if he doesn't injure himself. TDK a concern, he doesn't look like the star ruck we bought, despite the new rules.

I get it, we're all disappointed to be 0-2.

but at this point literally the only option is to man the **** up unfortunately.

Pretty good summation. TDK was crook on Friday and Saturday with a virus so I’d cut him some slack.

 

[StCicatriz]

this is picking up here in WA now that WCE are shit

but sure Caro its all clubs are apparently pissed at us

 

[SG34]

I don't disagree with most of that, I do think that the Best Saints Ever stuff that some on this thread are using to demand instant success is being misappropriated. I might be wrong but I think that's being used as the end objective. It doesn’t have a time frame apart from whatever the considered life cycle of this playing group is.

"We want to eventually be", not "By the end of the season, we absolutely must have proven ourselves to be" or "By round 4, we expect to have cemented ourselves undeniably as".

But i think thats also true of behaviours, which take a while to bed in, and nobody knows how the group will be in the heat of the fiercest battle, which you could argue our first two games of the seadon have mostly been. Will we stay true to the theory, the model or will we fall back into the behaviour we exhibited previously. Its one thing to drive change, but its not always easy to divert from what has become second nature under pressure.

I'm happy to watch them continue to forge that new standard in games.

I’m with stavro#4,
The idea that the early games should be about ‘settling in’ and “getting used to each other” is not an idea that the ladder cares about.

Not only are the first games also worth 4 premiership points, the first 8 weeks consistently shows the shape of the ladder (more or less) for the year.

And we are constantly deteriorating as well as improving. So even as the young stars ‘step up’, we know some of the older guys (or even some of the not-so-older guys) are sliding, due to natural causes, injury etc.

We had both games in our grasp, and let it slip. I still think there is hope because we were still competitive even with our appalling short comings on display.

So as Stavro#4 says, we could wait until August to see the fruits of the effort, but the ladder won’t wait.

 

[AirWinmar]

It's the area Owens should have been trained in from the start. Get the ball, get it out.

I agree, but he is one of our best forward options too but he we can give him a go as a mid forward, mybe we can still get some offensive damage as well

 

[austinnn]

Just finished watching the second half.

Melbourne might not be as shit this year as they have been, there's a better balance in their team now, they're more blue collar. We never really tested them though, so I still have my doubts that they'll stand up under harsher pressure, but having Mihocek up front works well.

Their defense was a hell of a lot better than ours on the day, Silvagni and Hammer improved but the entire unit had a sorry day that they would want to put behind them. I agree with people calling for Howard to come in, possibly for Tauru who needs a bit more development time.

I dont know why Boxshall was plonked in the forward line, but he seemed out of place - he is midfield rotation surely. We did this to Sinclair earlier in his career so I hope we don't persist with it. Mid or bench for mine.

Sharman is still kicking goals but bloody hell he needs to get on top of his marking issues, got to stick those, that's part of the job mate.

Higgins went missing for much of that game, needed more from him.

I didn't see any problem with the style of play: this loss was about individual failure in moments imo.

Concerning that we had no one able to shift gears and take control of the game, once again we were in it right till the end and thst could have easily been a Saints win, Dees were ripe for the picking if two or three people had stepped out of the quicksand. Sadly with Phillipou off injured, Ryan cradling his shoulder and Hall and Nas well covered, no one else seemed capable of taking it on.

That was the moment that players like Owens, Higgins, Wilson or even Tauru and Keeler should have made themselves heroes but for whatever reason they just didn't fire up which is a shame but not panic stations.

Once again we allowed our opposition to stay in the game, we are not firing yet, we are just ticking along. Hopefully being punched in the face twice and facing more fancied opposition is the sobering moment this club needs as they attempt to justify the hype. "Yes we are as good as we reckon and here's why." That's what I want to see this weekend.

 

[austinnn]

I’m with stavro#4,
The idea that the early games should be about ‘settling in’ and “getting used to each other” is not an idea that the ladder cares about.

Not only are the first games also worth 4 premiership points, the first 8 weeks consistently shows the shape of the ladder (more or less) for the year.

And we are constantly deteriorating as well as improving. So even as the young stars ‘step up’, we know some of the older guys (or even some of the not-so-older guys) are sliding, due to natural causes, injury etc.

We had both games in our grasp, and let it slip. I still think there is hope because we were still competitive even with our appalling short comings on display.

So as Stavro#4 says, we could wait until August to see the fruits of the effort, but the ladder won’t wait.

Absolutely, but whether or not the ladder will wait is irrelevant. Right now our reality is that we have started poorly and we do need more time to get serious. Not by design or desire, but here we are.

We'll see how quickly we're able to shake the sleep from our head to avoid getting stuck in a rut and cruelling the season properly, we've got some tough matches ahead of us now, perfect time to roll the sleeves up and prove a few doubters wrong. I believe the boys have it in them, but we'll see.

 

[Teflon]

I don't think anyone expected us to be some kind of super team with a few new recruits this season, but we all should expect an improvement over 2025, and at least make finals. It's plainly obvious after just two games, that there are disconnects across the field and also from the coaching side of things. Even this early in the season, someone needs to get the Saints train back on the track.

Oh I think plenty especially in the media have gone…saints spent lots $$ therefore must be top 6?
Not sure the club said that was a lock should we be better? Yes but 22% starting 18 changes it’s not totally unrealistic to expect that to take a little time to bed in

 

[gringo2011]

Jeez, Gringo.
Not like you to go off so quickly.
He’s probably still trying to find the best way to RSEA park.
With the greatest respect, you seriously need to chill on this one.

You know me by now. I'm as up and down as a roller coaster. I'm quite emotionally unstable when it comes to footy. He'll play well next week and I'll be taking him up like he's GAJ.

 

[EddieMurphy]

Interesting question, does anyone think based on exposed form we will win 3 games in a row this year? To do that we will have to beat a "good" team. Those that believe we have the talent on the list to beat good teams how do we get them playing to potential?

 

[gringo2011]

Oh I think plenty especially in the media have gone…saints spent lots $$ therefore must be top 6?
Not sure the club said that was a lock should we be better? Yes but 22% starting 18 changes it’s not totally unrealistic to expect that to take a little time to bed in

You put yourself out there, you get punched down. Don't engage in the media and it all goes away. We want to be relevant and not live in peaceful mediocrity. This comes with the territory.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Phantom and others have been scarily accurate with their predictions. We are a better than even chance of going 0-6 to start the season. What a calamity that would be for the club, after they talked themselves up all summer.

I have to admit I got sucked into the haze of optimism over the preseason, i thought we might be able to cover for the loss of King etc but how wrong we were. Our gaping list holes have become more pronounced than ever, the players who we thought might stand up in their stead have failed dismally.

The season could go completely t*ts up and will put serious presssure on those in charge.

Both have been close losses and its only two games. But I dont recall a time when the club have raised our expectations, to now feel so despondent about what lies ahead. The reality has hit hard (fools gold), good luck to the club trying to sell more memberships this year!

It's easy to appear like a prophet by consistently taking the negative perspective.

 

[Mowman]

Why is Robert Harvey in charge of the forward line? That's been our most dysfunctional area for years now, and nothing has changed.

I thought it was Bolton this year

 

[The Jack]

Had a dream we got smashed by Van Rooter and Mycheck.

Woke up in a cold sweat relieved it was only a dream.

 

[Windtagger]

Interesting question, does anyone think based on exposed form we will win 3 games in a row this year? To do that we will have to beat a "good" team. Those that believe we have the talent on the list to beat good teams how do we get them playing to potential?

Yeah I reckon.

 

[Teflon]

One of the poorest analysts in the game that Hawthorn cuck seriously see Buckley smirking at him as he just dribbles shit sure those clips in isolation paint Nas as selfish but he couldn’t answer the question was it instructed or a young player learning he’s now in big boy pants ??
You’re a flog Lewis

 

[ScrappyDo]

Interesting question, does anyone think based on exposed form we will win 3 games in a row this year? To do that we will have to beat a "good" team. Those that believe we have the talent on the list to beat good teams how do we get them playing to potential?

Probably a moot question after only 2 games of relatively poor form, punctuated with anomalous skill errors.
Whatever is going on with our group ATM it can only be either or both of game plan, or mental state.
And whilst we "may" have the talent, we do not have the experience to beat properly good teams.

 

[Teflon]

You put yourself out there, you get punched down. Don't engage in the media and it all goes away. We want to be relevant and not live in peaceful mediocrity. This comes with the territory.

To a point yes but dumb stupidity that says “just add water and get a flag” is no excuse. We went out and used our salary cap to recruit players to make our club better - how dare we!!

 

[akaifu]

Macrae with 23 disposals from 56% TOG with a sprained MCL

He hasn't been at his damaging best but you can't fault the spirit - massive respect to the guy

 

[bergholt]

Pretty good summation. TDK was crook on Friday and Saturday with a virus so I’d cut him some slack.

yeah knowing that now, in hindsight he was always going to be up against it trying to keep up with Gawn. didn't help that Keeler was uncompetitive so couldn't really spell him.

 

[AirWinmar]

Macrae with 23 disposals from 56% TOG with a sprained MCL

He hasn't been at his damaging best but you can't fault the spirit - massive respect to the guy

Now i feel bad for bagging him, i was thinking he looks like he's about 60 the way he was moving

 

[Sarcoidevo]

How are the Media gunna react when we smack GWS by 6+ goals on Saturday?

 

[Teflon]

How are the Media gunna react when we smack GWS by 6+ goals on Saturday?

I made the mistake of listening to the twats on The Couch then 360 it wasn’t that they were laughing saying “2m and 1.7m “ “the best player in the game beat the highest paid….blah blah” that frustrated me it’s just the complete lack of any actual insight, original thought or question it was just fckn beige.
The moron Whately tried some lame anecdote how saints were a “middle aged man driving a Ferrari and getting speeding tickets…” like just horrible ….then good ole Gaz does his little drive by cheap shot then tries smooth that over with “but they’ll be right it’s all good” so no one can ever accuse him of haveing an opinion (except when it comes to his supposed mates ex missus…)
I can’t believe Fox pay out for half of these morons in their tweed jackets and pink shirts each week absolute in bred, boys club fck wits

 

[austinnn]

Concerning that we had no one able to shift gears and take control of the game, once again we were in it right till the end and thst could have easily been a Saints win, Dees were ripe for the picking if two or three people had stepped out of the quicksand. Sadly with Phillipou off injured, Ryan cradling his shoulder and Hall and Nas well covered, no one else seemed capable of taking it on.



That was the moment that players like Owens, Higgins, Wilson or even Tauru and Keeler should have made themselves heroes but for whatever reason they just didn't fire up which is a shame but not panic stations.



Once again we allowed our opposition to stay in the game, we are not firing yet, we are just ticking along. Hopefully being punched in the face twice and facing more fancied opposition is the sobering moment this club needs as they attempt to justify the hype. "Yes we are as good as we reckon and here's why." That's what I want to see this weekend.

Concerning that we had no one able to shift gears and take control of the game, once again we were in it right till the end and thst could have easily been a Saints win, Dees were ripe for the picking if two or three people had stepped out of the quicksand. Sadly with Phillipou off injured, Ryan cradling his shoulder and Hall and Nas well covered, no one else seemed capable of taking it on.

That was the moment that players like Owens, Higgins, Wilson or even Tauru and Keeler should have made themselves heroes but for whatever reason they just didn't fire up which is a shame but not panic stations.

Once again we allowed our opposition to stay in the game, we are not firing yet, we are just ticking along. Hopefully being punched in the face twice and facing more fancied opposition is the sobering moment this club needs as they attempt to justify the hype. "Yes we are as good as we reckon and here's why." That's what I want to see this weekend.

I know its a bit floggish to quote myself", austinnn mused, but thinking about the above further, id like to also add that i was hoping that we could get past the stage where we're relying on individual brilliance and mercurial moments to win the day. Its a fool's strategy. Nas isn't always going to be the marvel at Marvel, as he proved on Sunday, no player is that good that consistently.

We need a system that when played correctly, smashes other systems, where Messiah are added bonuses rather than integral. I can't remember having a system that good.

I hope thats what we're working towards, but if so its definitely still in the early stages of development.

 

[Dr Spaceman]