Autopsy Saints v Dees

[mad-saint-guy]

I think Caminiti doesn't deserve the criticism that he's copping. His opponent kicked most of his goals from leading into open space and getting lace out delivery with Hammer right there with him. Why was there so much open space and no assistance when we have Wilkie, Silvagni and Tauru who are all known interceptors?


Have to make some changes after that fiasco. Let's also not bother playing anyone who is hurt.

Out: Pou (inj), Ryan (inj), Carroll, Keeler, Macrae

In: Marshall, Stocker, Banfield, Collard, Fincher


B: Stocker, Caminiti, Wilkie
HB: Sinclair, Silvagni, Flanders
C: Hill, Windhager, Wood
HF: Owens, Tauru, Wilson
F: Higgins, Marshall, Sharman

Foll: TDK, Nas, Hall
Int: Garcia, Banfield, Collard, Fincher, Boxshall

 

[SG34]

Owens is trapped in his role because he's good enough to bob up and kick a couple goals frequently enough without completely disappearing from the game when it doesn't go his way. By far the biggest victim of our KPF struggles for the last 3 years.

There was a moment in the pies game where he just straight lined at the ball dangerfield style. Really does need the opportunity to get into the contested stuff more.

Don’t forget he was also called in for relief-ruck duties again.

 

[SG34]

I think Caminiti doesn't deserve the criticism that he's copping. His opponent kicked most of his goals from leading into open space and getting lace out delivery with Hammer right there with him. Why was there so much open space and no assistance when we have Wilkie, Silvagni and Tauru who are all known interceptors?


Have to make some changes after that fiasco. Let's also not bother playing anyone who is hurt.

Out: Pou (inj), Ryan (inj), Carroll, Keeler, Macrae

In: Marshall, Stocker, Banfield, Collard, Hastie


B: Stocker, Caminiti, Wilkie
HB: Sinclair, Silvagni, Flanders
C: Hill, Windhager, Wood
HF: Owens, Tauru, Wilson
F: Higgins, Marshall, Sharman

Foll: TDK, Nas, Hall
Int: Garcia, Banfield, Collard, Hastie, Boxshall

I just don’t think we have the options. I’ve said from the start that Hammer is not a key defender, but we just have to make do. Your team is fine BTW.
How far is Hunter from selection? - two more weeks?

 

[mad-saint-guy]

I just don’t think we have the options. I’ve said from the start that Hammer is not a key defender, but we just have to make do. Your team is fine BTW.
How far is Hunter from selection? - two more weeks?

Doubt Hunter will actually get (and stay) match fit at any point. Can put a line through him.

Changed my mind on Hastie vs Fincher as well - swapped Fincher in. Initially I thought two debutants could be pushing it, but I doubt Hastie would offer anything more than Fincher.

 

[bergholt]

so much whinging!

(I haven't actually read most of the thread so probably repeating a bunch others have said.)

yeah, it's going to be a tough start to the season, that sux. I personally don't think we've been bad but we have been really unpolished and there aren't many easy games so that's hurt us.

but is it surprising? we're still pretty young. I thought Melbourne had a fairly young side but we were younger and less experienced than them.

I can see the potential in these kids but they're basically not performing yet:

• Keeler definitely isn't a player yet, any games he get are gifts to help him develop
• Tauru's very raw and we don't really need a 4th tall back
• Pou is improving every week and was on track for a good game - but yet another injury
• Boxy has big potential but isn't there yet, too many mistakes under pressure
• Carroll's disposal is probably too messy right now, has a lot of cleaning up to do, and just not enough impact
• Hugo goes about it in a really good way but still doesn't quite have the impact he needs to have
• Nas is learning about getting tagged, he'll get to the other side of it but it takes a bit of time
• Wilson is doing pretty well even if I think he could have more impact

none of these guys are older than 23.

not to mention Mitch and Windy who are both going well at just 22, Hammer who's doing ok at 22 in his second season at key back (but at the mercy of the midfield like all defenders), Maxy Hall who at 24 is looking like he should be a serious player, and Flanders who's still only 24 and I reckon is going fine despite still finding his place in the side.

and that's more than half the side.

if we're going to win games with a bunch of relatively inexperienced guys then the experienced players have to carry them.

so that's the real problem, as it has been for years. they're fine but not enough star power there to give the younger players a buffer. in the last two weeks we've basically been beaten by 10x AAs in Pendlebury and Gawn, serious all-time greats who we still allowed to play well.

we just don't have those guys. closest things are Sincs and Wilkie who are both going ok but aren't winning us games off their own boots. Macrae's playing 56% game time (which shows we're focused on the next generation), Hilly's going ok but has never been a one-man matchwinner, Wood's a great guy but is probably done (except that goal), Ryan will keep contributing if he doesn't injure himself. TDK a concern, he doesn't look like the star ruck we bought, despite the new rules.

I get it, we're all disappointed to be 0-2.

but at this point literally the only option is to man the **** up unfortunately.

 

[Sully111]

so much whinging!

(I haven't actually read most of the thread so probably repeating a bunch others have said.)

yeah, it's going to be a tough start to the season, that sux. I personally don't think we've been bad but we have been really unpolished and there aren't many easy games so that's hurt us.

but is it surprising? we're still pretty young. I thought Melbourne had a fairly young side but we were younger and less experienced than them.

I can see the potential in these kids but they're basically not performing yet:

• Keeler definitely isn't a player yet, any games he get are gifts to help him develop
• Tauru's very raw and we don't really need a 4th tall back
• Pou is improving every week and was on track for a good game - but yet another injury
• Boxy has big potential but isn't there yet, too many mistakes under pressure
• Carroll's disposal is probably too messy right now, has a lot of cleaning up to do, and just not enough impact
• Hugo goes about it in a really good way but still doesn't quite have the impact he needs to have
• Nas is learning about getting tagged, he'll get to the other side of it but it takes a bit of time
• Wilson is doing pretty well even if I think he could have more impact

none of these guys are older than 23.

not to mention Mitch and Windy who are both going well at just 22, Hammer who's doing ok at 22 in his second season at key back (but at the mercy of the midfield like all defenders), Maxy Hall who at 24 is looking like he should be a serious player, and Flanders who's still only 24 and I reckon is going fine despite still finding his place in the side.

and that's more than half the side.

if we're going to win games with a bunch of relatively inexperienced guys then the experienced players have to carry them.

so that's the real problem, as it has been for years. they're fine but not enough star power there to give the younger players a buffer. in the last two weeks we've basically been beaten by 10x AAs in Pendlebury and Gawn, serious all-time greats who we still allowed to play well.

we just don't have those guys. closest things are Sincs and Wilkie who are both going ok but aren't winning us games off their own boots. Macrae's playing 56% game time (which shows we're focused on the next generation), Hilly's going ok but has never been a one-man matchwinner, Wood's a great guy but is probably done (except that goal), Ryan will keep contributing if he doesn't injure himself. TDK a concern, he doesn't look like the star ruck we bought, despite the new rules.

I get it, we're all disappointed to be 0-2.

but at this point literally the only option is to man the **** up unfortunately.

Too many players are drawn to the ball meaning oppo can break away into space easily.

Flanders can barely hit a target.

76 year old Max Gawn strolls past TDK into the forward 50 and marks and goals.

Macrae = t*ts on a bull

Sorry, but the club has sold the time is now narrative... big time. They've pushed it. It raises expectations.

 

[gringo2011]

Definitely, we've looked off the pace and gassed a fair bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's because of the imbalance in talls-smalls-mids etc. when I said overly simplistic of Ross to just list percentages of tackles and fumbles.

Like if you say "we just need to start winning more 1 on 1 contests, we lost contested marks 30 to 10!!!", but all the 1 on 1 contests are small forwards up against key defenders, it would be a different tale to tell.

Last week we had JSOS, Wilkie, Tauru, Caminiti ALL in the backline, and we did it again this week. Add on top of that, TDK and Marshall, this week TDK and Keeler, plus Mason Wood and Cooper Sharman, that's a very tall team I think.

If you're a tall team and you're working your ass off and not really controlling the aerial component of the game, it's gonna be a fatigued and poorer tackling team I think. I understood having Marshall in last week, we have no King, Membrey is gone, Caminiti is a defender now I guess and Ro was recruited as a forward so has genuine forward craft. The Keeler call, I'm not so sure, he has looked very hit and miss for us.

Travaglia, Stocker or Hastie, any one of those for Keeler would have helped us in terms of speed, pressure, work rate I think. Shit, could have gone Stocker and Hastie/Travaglia for Keeler and Carroll and had a more accountable defensive player (Stocker) and some run on a wing/hb and had Mason Wood and/or Boxshall spend more time forward.

I don't think the current mix is it.

We do seem to have gone for height because we were short last year just as the competition has moved to quick ball movement to exploit new rules. Only a lot of our height is actually middle sized. We are now in neither fast nor advantageously tall land.

 

[phantom13]

so much whinging!

(I haven't actually read most of the thread so probably repeating a bunch others have said.)

yeah, it's going to be a tough start to the season, that sux. I personally don't think we've been bad but we have been really unpolished and there aren't many easy games so that's hurt us.

but is it surprising? we're still pretty young. I thought Melbourne had a fairly young side but we were younger and less experienced than them.

I can see the potential in these kids but they're basically not performing yet:

• Keeler definitely isn't a player yet, any games he get are gifts to help him develop
• Tauru's very raw and we don't really need a 4th tall back
• Pou is improving every week and was on track for a good game - but yet another injury
• Boxy has big potential but isn't there yet, too many mistakes under pressure
• Carroll's disposal is probably too messy right now, has a lot of cleaning up to do, and just not enough impact
• Hugo goes about it in a really good way but still doesn't quite have the impact he needs to have
• Nas is learning about getting tagged, he'll get to the other side of it but it takes a bit of time
• Wilson is doing pretty well even if I think he could have more impact

none of these guys are older than 23.

not to mention Mitch and Windy who are both going well at just 22, Hammer who's doing ok at 22 in his second season at key back (but at the mercy of the midfield like all defenders), Maxy Hall who at 24 is looking like he should be a serious player, and Flanders who's still only 24 and I reckon is going fine despite still finding his place in the side.

and that's more than half the side.

if we're going to win games with a bunch of relatively inexperienced guys then the experienced players have to carry them.

so that's the real problem, as it has been for years. they're fine but not enough star power there to give the younger players a buffer. in the last two weeks we've basically been beaten by 10x AAs in Pendlebury and Gawn, serious all-time greats who we still allowed to play well.

we just don't have those guys. closest things are Sincs and Wilkie who are both going ok but aren't winning us games off their own boots. Macrae's playing 56% game time (which shows we're focused on the next generation), Hilly's going ok but has never been a one-man matchwinner, Wood's a great guy but is probably done (except that goal), Ryan will keep contributing if he doesn't injure himself. TDK a concern, he doesn't look like the star ruck we bought, despite the new rules.

I get it, we're all disappointed to be 0-2.

but at this point literally the only option is to man the **** up unfortunately.

I’m not disappointed to be 0-2 (I mean I am but that’s not the main issue).

The eternal sunshine crowd always do this “oh but look at the kids” it’s not meant to be another development year, we’ve pushed all the chips in here to actually start moving up the ladder, play finals, retain Nas and hopefully attract more talent. We’re now 0-2 and yeh that sucks but if we’d lost to Geelong and Brisbane then it is what it is but we haven’t. We’ve lost to Collingwood who most experts are tipping for a slide and got done by Adelaide away without their two key defenders and now we’ve lost to Melbourne who again most experts had bottom 5.
Our next 4 weeks go GWS away, Brisbane at marvel then a fortnight in Adelaide. Based on current form (and yeh MAYBE it turns but MAYBE Megan Fox dms me too) we win one of those games.

0-2 is one thing 1-5 is another and we’re staring down the barrel of that.

I made the point last week that because of the Collingwood loss this game became a must win and we still lost. We had to bank at least one of the last two games (preferably both) because of the draw we’ve got and we couldn’t do it.

We miss finals this year Nas almost certainly leaves (possibly even this year he didn’t look like a bloke enjoying his footy today) and we get no FAs and this springboard has snapped.

I love what we did with the list and the players, it was a big swing but it’s better than just staying mid table but it comes with reasonable expectation. The media already ran with the “dees beat big spending saints” and it’s gonna get more and more hot in the coming weeks. We don’t have time to work through this issue we need it fixed asap, we’re win now and we’re losing.

 

[beside the seaside]

Too many players are drawn to the ball meaning oppo can break away into space easily.

Flanders can barely hit a target.

76 year old Max Gawn strolls past TDK into the forward 50 and marks and goals.

Macrae = t*ts on a bull

Sorry, but the club has sold the time is now narrative... big time. They've pushed it. It raises expectations.

Flanders disposal efficiency was 78%, far from our worst in that stat.

 

[Sully111]

Flanders disposal efficiency was 78%, far from our worst in that stat.

Often when he'd hit a target they'd be swamped instantly. It was poor decision making.

 

[crasha301]

We do seem to have gone for height because we were short last year just as the competition has moved to quick ball movement to exploit new rules. Only a lot of our height is actually middle sized. We are now in neither fast nor advantageously tall land.

Webster out SOS in.

Nas out and Carrol in.

We've lost two of our 3 defenders that actually has some speed.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

I just read Lyon's after the game comments, my god that guy his head planted that far up his own arse its scary.

Not one of his reasons or rationale to the questions on Nas should be accepted. He is like a star gazing teenager. He refuses to accept that his number one player needs to be told to man the .... up, start pressuring, chasing and play on a half back line.

Lyon has become an arrogant self indulged flog or perhaps he always was and we didn't notice...?

 

[BrutThough]

Why is Robert Harvey in charge of the forward line? That's been our most dysfunctional area for years now, and nothing has changed.

He's not. He is the midfield coach.

 

[gringo2011]

One positive this year is the form of Windhager. Preseason and his two proper games have been top notch. He cleaned up a lot of mess yesterday with his superb touch. He made some horrible disposal look a lot less problematic. He'd be well inside the top 50 players in the comp on current form.

[td]

● Ranked 7th in Effective Disposals Per Game	● Ranked 9th in Disposals Per Game
● Ranked 9th in Uncontested Possessions Per Game	● Ranked 5th in Total Effective Disposals
● Ranked 6th in Total Disposals	● Ranked 6th in Total Uncontested Possessions
● Ranked 12th in Total Centre Clearances	● Ranked 14th in Total Kicks
● Ranked 14th in Total Marks	● Ranked 16th in Total Score Involvements
● Ranked 17th in Total Handballs	● Ranked 18th in Total AFL Fantasy Score
● Ranked 20th in Total Inside 50s

[/td]

 

[Minga]

He is good in a press conference. Just knows how to bat it away and keep the club from the sharks.

Agreed. People spitting the dummy over this is ridiculous.

He has far from lost me. I agree we are getting a lot of the fundamentals right. I mean it’s been two ****ing close games, despite us seemingly blowing so many chances to put the final nail in it. RTB is managing the press, it’s a press conference, behind closed doors he knows what matters is outcome over cheap consoling talk.

I think everyone is dealing with a massive crashing down of expectations coupled with fear for the next several match ups, but cmon seriously, are we not made of sterner stuff?

I’ll be a very very harsh critic come the midpoint of the season if we haven’t grown from here, but if we do grow from here, if we do get that little bit more cohesive and definite in our execution, the results will start to turn.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m not disappointed to be 0-2 (I mean I am but that’s not the main issue).

The eternal sunshine crowd always do this “oh but look at the kids” it’s not meant to be another development year, we’ve pushed all the chips in here to actually start moving up the ladder, play finals, retain Nas and hopefully attract more talent. We’re now 0-2 and yeh that sucks but if we’d lost to Geelong and Brisbane then it is what it is but we haven’t. We’ve lost to Collingwood who most experts are tipping for a slide and got done by Adelaide away without their two key defenders and now we’ve lost to Melbourne who again most experts had bottom 5.
Our next 4 weeks go GWS away, Brisbane at marvel then a fortnight in Adelaide. Based on current form (and yeh MAYBE it turns but MAYBE Megan Fox dms me too) we win one of those games.

0-2 is one thing 1-5 is another and we’re staring down the barrel of that.

I made the point last week that because of the Collingwood loss this game became a must win and we still lost. We had to bank at least one of the last two games (preferably both) because of the draw we’ve got and we couldn’t do it.

We miss finals this year Nas almost certainly leaves (possibly even this year he didn’t look like a bloke enjoying his footy today) and we get no FAs and this springboard has snapped.

I love what we did with the list and the players, it was a big swing but it’s better than just staying mid table but it comes with reasonable expectation. The media already ran with the “dees beat big spending saints” and it’s gonna get more and more hot in the coming weeks. We don’t have time to work through this issue we need it fixed asap, we’re win now and we’re losing.

We can only hope that that stung and they'll respond against GWS and a thin Lions list. They've made the whole club under pressure but they have the chance at redemption now. They need some leaders to stand up. The bonus is that they will be under zero pressure from the footy world to beat both sides and have a free hit. Lose both and the season looks done.

 

[gringo2011]

Flanders disposal efficiency was 78%, far from our worst in that stat.

This is one of those ones where stats flatter. He looked absolutely terrible. Even his effective ones meant players had to backtrack or leap high to receive or slow down and pick up his ground balls.

He's starting to look not best 22 off the last two weeks. If Dow is fit he might be better. Otherwise put time into Travaglia. If we lose the next two matches we should smash games into the kids and experiment with positions.

 

[Saintbloke]

Can't really see is us reaching the dizzy heights of last season unfortunately. I get the impression that Lyon is trying a certain style of gameplay but has the wrong kind of players to implement it.

 

[gringo2011]

I just read Lyon's after the game comments, my god that guy his head planted that far up his own arse its scary.

Not one of his reasons or rationale to the questions on Nas should be accepted. He is like a star gazing teenager. He refuses to accept that his number one player needs to be told to man the .... up, start pressuring, chasing and play on a half back line.

Lyon has become an arrogant self indulged flog or perhaps he always was and we didn't notice...?

I can't believe anyone actually takes pressers seriously. It's a way to say as little as possible while backing your players. His messaging inside the inner sanctum during the review will be scorching. Coaches going off at the presser looks unprofessional and messy. Not the place for it.

 

[gringo2011]

Agreed. People spitting the dummy over this is ridiculous.

He has far from lost me. I agree we are getting a lot of the fundamentals right. I mean it’s been two ****ing close games, despite us seemingly blowing so many chances to put the final nail in it. RTB is managing the press, it’s a press conference, behind closed doors he knows what matters is outcome over cheap consoling talk.

I think everyone is dealing with a massive crashing down of expectations coupled with fear for the next several match ups, but cmon seriously, are we not made of sterner stuff?

I’ll be a very very harsh critic come the midpoint of the season if we haven’t grown from here, but if we do grow from here, if we do get that little bit more cohesive and definite in our execution, the results will start to turn.

I'm not confident that we can get it back from here but Lyon's press conferences are where he seems to shine. Doesn't look like he's got a lot of answers on field right now but I feel like he's in control behind a mic.

His job is to try to work out what isn't working and start redesigning something that works. Losing our shit is the fan's job.

 

[gringo2011]

He's not. He is the midfield coach.

Yeah, it's the cookie goblin that has the forwards.

 

[BrutThough]

Agreed. People spitting the dummy over this is ridiculous.

He has far from lost me. I agree we are getting a lot of the fundamentals right. I mean it’s been two ****ing close games, despite us seemingly blowing so many chances to put the final nail in it. RTB is managing the press, it’s a press conference, behind closed doors he knows what matters is outcome over cheap consoling talk.

I think everyone is dealing with a massive crashing down of expectations coupled with fear for the next several match ups, but cmon seriously, are we not made of sterner stuff?

I’ll be a very very harsh critic come the midpoint of the season if we haven’t grown from here, but if we do grow from here, if we do get that little bit more cohesive and definite in our execution, the results will start to turn.

I think people are hoping he reacts like a Bigfooty poster and has a proper melt to the press. But he's never going to do that. He isnt going to throw players under the bus or declare anything drastic in front of the press. Any strong words will happen behind closed doors.

 

[gringo2011]

I think Caminiti doesn't deserve the criticism that he's copping. His opponent kicked most of his goals from leading into open space and getting lace out delivery with Hammer right there with him. Why was there so much open space and no assistance when we have Wilkie, Silvagni and Tauru who are all known interceptors?


Have to make some changes after that fiasco. Let's also not bother playing anyone who is hurt.

Out: Pou (inj), Ryan (inj), Carroll, Keeler, Macrae

In: Marshall, Stocker, Banfield, Collard, Fincher


B: Stocker, Caminiti, Wilkie
HB: Sinclair, Silvagni, Flanders
C: Hill, Windhager, Wood
HF: Owens, Tauru, Wilson
F: Higgins, Marshall, Sharman

Foll: TDK, Nas, Hall
Int: Garcia, Banfield, Collard, Fincher, Boxshall

To me Silvagni seemed to do a lot of dumb things with leaving his players and exposing others by moving into spots that got in the way. We look too tall with him and Tauru.

 

[BrutThough]

To me Silvagni seemed to do a lot of dumb things with leaving his players and exposing others by moving into spots that got in the way. We look too tall with him and Tauru.

Tauru needs to go forward.

 

[gringo2011]

The Viking is another Dodgem Car at Luna Park. Hammer, Viking..bash.

Hammer does good stuff each and every week I bag him. I love how he keeps contesting, and spoiling. I think I can see why Ross loves him.and I’ve noticed he’s got fast hands for a tall guy.

Even the Viking did well at times today. Took a sold grab or two.

I’d be worried about my other whipping boy Phillipou. Are you still believing? I mean, a good B+ is still possible, maybe. A ‘better-Billings’ .

We missed Ronnie Byrnes. I suddenly love Byrnes.

We miss his run. Him and Hill are involved in a lot of our transition. Hill was very good but we need more guys that can spread into space that move up with the play.