Autopsy Round 02 Swans defeated by Hawthorn

[SwansProudly]

A hard fought contest against the Hawks at the MCG but we go down by 17-points.

 

[giantsully]

Corey tried hard but him and Cleary were pretty well exploited, Sicily was just playing on either one of them and doing whatever he wanted.

Geez Sicily is still a bloody good player - Barass getting all the plaudits but Sicily made us hurt with every one of his intercepts.

 

[wilsonmatic]

Not buying the tired stuff.. A 5 day break 2 games into the season big whoop, they're young athletes it shouldn't be an issue. We had chances late but we just blew them. Some good players on the night but I think our forward 50 entries to Charlie and co weren't great, a lot of long bombs and short passes not to advantage or missing the target.
Tommy Mac getting obliterated by Chol was disappointing. And the 50, he nearly cost us a grand final spot against the Pies but the umpire luckily looked the other way. So still hasn't learnt that rule yet, just a really low footy IQ generally. And he shouldn't be kicking inside 50, they are always just a dump helicopter kick which come back out twice as fast and we're exposed down the other end. Just handball and return to position please.

 

[caesar88]

Not buying the tired stuff.. A 5 day break 2 games into the season big whoop, they're young athletes it shouldn't be an issue. We had chances late but we just blew them. Some good players on the night but I think our forward 50 entries to Charlie and co weren't great, a lot of long bombs and short passes not to advantage or missing the target.
Tommy Mac getting obliterated by Chol was disappointing. And the 50, he nearly cost us a grand final spot against the Pies but the umpire luckily looked the other way. So still hasn't learnt that rule yet, just a really low footy IQ generally. And he shouldn't be kicking inside 50, they are always just a dump helicopter kick which come back out twice as fast and we're exposed down the other end. Just handball and return to position please.

Two games into the season is more likely when you are to feel the effects of a short turnaround than later in the season, as you still don't quite have the full match fitness behind you.

 

[giantsully]

and: commentary was unbearable, i watched on mute for a lot of it ... and regards umpiring, it's not necessarily the decisions that go against us, it's the non-decisions ... i think it was the second quarter but hawthorn ended up with two goals after a series of non-calls that really stifled our momentum ... among other things ...

oh, and i really don't like thursday night football

King's commentary around Watson sounded deadset creepy - it was bordering on "grooming". At times he made the Wizard sound like the second coming the GAJ Sr, when in reality he had SFA impact on the game.

 

[mcs095]

I'm not sure how one can watch the first 2 games, especially the Blues game and say his form so far this season is concerning. His intensity was off last night but he still managed to blitz the rest of the side for pressure and tackles (yes, as others have pointed out tackles can be grabbing people at stoppages without hunting them down, but this is true for all mids).

If the best you can say is he did well for pressure and tackles, then as a senior midfielder that is a serious concern in itself in my honest opinion. But we are all entitled to our opinions. He was utterly anonymous last night, and frankly while by his standards his first two games were good disposal wise, my opinion is he had relatively low actual impact on the contest.

Each to their own but he needs to take the next step if we are truly going to contest for anything this season.

 

[mcs095]

King's commentary around Watson sounded deadset creepy - it was bordering on "grooming". At times he made the Wizard sound like the second coming the GAJ Sr, when in reality he had SFA impact on the game.

Kane Cornes was just as bad.

 

[The King!]

Both teams were tired out on feet , doesn't matter how fit you are they are all athletes flogging themselves out there .

They had a bit more , but the breaks are never even in this league so can't complain.

The afl could do it better but I'm sure we benefit plenty too

 

[Bloods86]

If the best you can say is he did well for pressure and tackles, then as a senior midfielder that is a serious concern in itself in my honest opinion. But we are all entitled to our opinions. He was utterly anonymous last night, and frankly while by his standards his first two games were good disposal wise, my opinion is he had relatively low actual impact on the contest.

Each to their own but he needs to take the next step if we are truly going to contest for anything this season.

Yeah, I don't have arbitrary disposal count expectations so I'm going to have a different take. I used to hold this in higher regard in the past, when I thought being a good mid = getting the ball lots, and ignored nuanced roles/strengths (it matters more for some than others). For me, pressure and tackling is important. And that is something Rowy excels at (normally), an important role in the side.

To be clear, I'm not saying Rowy had a good night last night. He did not, his intensity and reactions were off at times, even if his tackle/pressure numbers were (much) better than his teammates, though there were some usual frenetic efforts in both halves (so anonymous is unfair imo). It felt odd to be shaking my head at (lack of) efforts I'd usually see from others, including "stars".

You said early season form also, which includes the previous 2 games and those weren't of any real concern to me regarding Rowy. His effort and impact to me (and at least to some others here) were clear.

 

[mcs095]

Yeah, I don't have arbitrary disposal count expectations so I'm going to have a different take. I used to hold this in higher regard in the past, when I thought being a good mid = getting the ball lots, and ignored nuanced roles/strengths (it matters more for some than others). For me, pressure and tackling is important. And that is something Rowy excels at (normally), an important role in the side.

To be clear, I'm not saying Rowy had a good night last night. He did not, his intensity and reactions were off at times, even if his tackle/pressure numbers were (much) better than his teammates, though there were some usual frenetic efforts in both halves (so anonymous is unfair imo). It felt odd to be shaking my head at (lack of) efforts I'd usually see from others, including "stars".

You said early season form also, which includes the previous 2 games and those weren't of any real concern to me regarding Rowy. His effort and impact to me (and at least to some others here) were clear.

Never said anything about effort. Effort is never in question. Though that missed tackle last night was a shocking individual moment, but every player will have those at times.

Nor did I say anything about an 'arbitrary disposal count' - but historically there aren't many really good, high impact midfielders that across a career average what, somewhere around 17 touches a game.

But I also don't think his impact was particularly high in either of the first games (he played fine sure - but nothing stands out particularly in my mind, though there was that nice goal against the Visy boys), and it was certainly low last night. And there are too many of those games still where he is just a contributor at the edges to the contest.

I just think we need to see a lot more from him than we are getting. He is far from alone, but he is at a point in his career where you do wonder if he will ever become much more than a tackling and pressure midfielder that can clear the ball.

Is that enough in the modern game of AFL footy - I'm not convinced it is. Perhaps with the right mix of midfielders around such a player it can work - but I don't think we have that at all with the current group.

 

[Punts]

Poor form to w***ers throwing full Coke Zero bottles at the Hawk players

 

[Bloods86]

Never said anything about effort. Effort is never in question. Though that missed tackle last night was a shocking individual moment, but every player will have those at times.

Nor did I say anything about an 'arbitrary disposal count' - but historically there aren't many really good, high impact midfielders that across a career average what, somewhere around 17 touches a game.

But I also don't think his impact was particularly high in either of the first games (he played fine sure - but nothing stands out particularly in my mind, though there was that nice goal against the Visy boys), and it was certainly low last night. And there are too many of those games still where he is just a contributor at the edges to the contest.

I just think we need to see a lot more from him than we are getting. He is far from alone, but he is at a point in his career where you do wonder if he will ever become much more than a tackling and pressure midfielder that can clear the ball.

Is that enough in the modern game of AFL footy - I'm not convinced it is. Perhaps with the right mix of midfielders around such a player it can work - but I don't think we have that at all with the current group.

I didn't say you had used the words "arbitrary disposal counts" or said that Rowy lacks effort overall.

I can't help it if people don't notice the impact Rowy usually has on contests.

Maybe the problem is with our mix of mids, and not with Rowy then. We could go even less defensive but I hate to think of the outcomes then.

 

[The Blue Max]

Patently obvious Sheldrick, Cleary, Serong and Wicks are not consistent or skilled enough to be relied upon.

Not sure what we do about it?

 

[caesar88]

Never said anything about effort. Effort is never in question. Though that missed tackle last night was a shocking individual moment, but every player will have those at times.

Nor did I say anything about an 'arbitrary disposal count' - but historically there aren't many really good, high impact midfielders that across a career average what, somewhere around 17 touches a game.

But I also don't think his impact was particularly high in either of the first games (he played fine sure - but nothing stands out particularly in my mind), and it was certainly low last night. And there are too many of those games still where he is just a contributor at the edges to the contest.

I just think we need to see a lot more from him than we are getting. He is far from alone, but he is at a point in his career where you do wonder if he will ever become much more than a tackling and pressure midfielder that can clear the ball.

Is that enough in the modern game of AFL footy - I'm not convinced it is. Perhaps with the right mix of midfielders around such a player it can work - but I don't think we have that at all with the current group.

Perhaps this is the problem though. You're judging him as a high-impact midfielder and not as the defensive midfielder that he's played as. So inevitably from an impact perspective he is going to seem underwhelming. When judged as a defensive midfielder, the fact he's so elite defensively whilst also being an effective clearance player who can have the occasional moment of class ahead of the ball is a luxury that I think we take for granted.

In that role, he, Dunkley & Atkins from Geelong have been a clear benchmark, and I don't think it's a coincidence that 7 of the last 8 grand finalists have been between those three players' teams. The role they've played in those teams was instrumental and was recognised as such. Their B&F results in those seasons speak to this:

Atkins (2022) - 5th
Rowbottom (2022) - 3rd
Dunkley (2023) - 4th
Rowbottom (2024) - 6th
Dunkley (2024) - 3rd
Atkins (2025) - 4th
Dunkley (2025) - 1st

It's an important role, even if it is not always an eye-catching or game-breaking one, which you seem to be looking for.

Rowbottom's been effective in his first two games with plenty of disposals that have been neat and tidy, if unremarkable. It's led to plenty of involvements in quality chains. Even last night, he didn't get enough of the ball but what he did get was pretty effective, some important clearances and link-up plays. It felt like he was involved in a lot of our scores, so it wasn't surprising he had the most score involvements for us - and that doesn't include the two tap-ons he had that were important in eventual goals.

All of this is to say that I think effectiveness and wow-factor are two different things. Rowbottom can be quietly effective if he gets enough of it, because what he will get you are 50/50 balls and clean extractions from the contest. I don't think we do him any favours in getting enough of it though because his focus in his current role can end up being too divided between the opponent and the ball. I'd like to see us strip things back with him and just let him play as a clearance player. We haven't leant into that side of his game anywhere near enough considering he's shown himself more than capable.

 

[Bloods86]

Patently obvious Sheldrick, Cleary, Serong and Wicks are not consistent or skilled enough to be relied upon.

Not sure what we do about it?

Wicks was good last year, form changes, and can change back. No-one is as good as their best form, and (though not his worst form), as bad as their worst form.

Cleary is early in his career, hasn't been given a proper go in the position he has shown good VFL form in. Things can change.

Serong has been alright, 3 games into his career with us.

 

[joeykanga]

I don't know what was wrong, there was a Hawks goal early that resulted from a missed tackle from Rowbottom. His attack on that player wasn't AFL standard.

It was a simple palm off from the Hawks player. It wouldnt even push a fly away. That looked awful.

 

[mcs095]

Perhaps this is the problem though. You're judging him as a high-impact midfielder and not as the defensive midfielder that he's played as. So inevitably from an impact perspective he is going to seem underwhelming. When judged as a defensive midfielder, the fact he's so elite defensively whilst also being an effective clearance player who can have the occasional moment of class ahead of the ball is a luxury that I think we take for granted.

In that role, he, Dunkley & Atkins from Geelong have been a clear benchmark, and I don't think it's a coincidence that 7 of the last 8 grand finalists have been between those three players' teams. The role they've played in those teams was instrumental and was recognised as such. Their B&F results in those seasons speak to this:

Atkins (2022) - 5th
Rowbottom (2022) - 3rd
Dunkley (2023) - 4th
Rowbottom (2024) - 6th
Dunkley (2024) - 3rd
Atkins (2025) - 4th
Dunkley (2025) - 1st

It's an important role, even if it is not always an eye-catching or game-breaking one, which you seem to be looking for.

Rowbottom's been effective in his first two games with plenty of disposals that have been neat and tidy, if unremarkable. It's led to plenty of involvements in quality chains. Even last night, he didn't get enough of the ball but what he did get was pretty effective, some important clearances and link-up plays. It felt like he was involved in a lot of our scores, so it wasn't surprising he had the most score involvements for us - and that doesn't include the two tap-ons he had that were important in eventual goals.

All of this is to say that I think effectiveness and wow-factor are two different things. Rowbottom can be quietly effective if he gets enough of it, because what he will get you are 50/50 balls and clean extractions from the contest. I don't think we do him any favours in getting enough of it though because his focus in his current role can end up being too divided between the opponent and the ball. I'd like to see us strip things back with him and just let him play as a clearance player. We haven't leant into that side of his game anywhere near enough considering he's shown himself more than capable.

I'm not judging him as a high impact midfielder. I'm not expecting him to have 35 touches, kick 5 goals every week, make 20 tackles and have 20 pressure acts. But equally, he needs to have more impact than basically lots of tackles and lots of pressure acts to be even what I would call a medium impact player.

He is effective at tackling. He is effective at pressure. But I don't buy he is consistently effective at too much else on a regular enough basis.

But that is my opinion, and you are free to have yours and defend him to the hilt. That's perfectly fine.

We've been spoilt in his sort of role over the past 30 years by having players that can do the defensive part, but be highly influential on a consistent basis in other ways too.

I love watching him and his effort and endeavour are never in question. And I agree we don't play to his strengths. But we don't see enough from him outside of a couple of facets of the game on a regular basis.

And to be honest, I'd take Dunkley or Atkins in a heartbeat over him, as much as I don't want to say that. They are a level above him (though Atkins less so).

 

[caesar88]

I think Serong's been awesome to start this year and was good again last night. The only player in defence who showed any sort of composure all game.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

With every loss, the autopsy thread is filled with “Player X was crap”, “Player Y isn’t up to it”.

I’m guilty of it myself.

But on reflection - last night, we fielded the best team we could, nobody was awful (although some were decidedly below their best), and nobody was great either.

It was just a hard slog off a short break, against umps and a pretty good team, minus several of our best players, on the MCG.

One of those games we were expected to lose & it went basically to script.

And never fear, West Coast is near.

I honestly feel like 3-2 is inevitable & then the true test begins.

 

[caesar88]

I'm not judging him as a high impact midfielder. I'm not expecting him to have 35 touches, kick 5 goals every week, make 20 tackles and have 20 pressure acts. But equally, he needs to have more impact than basically lots of tackles and lots of pressure acts to be even what I would call a medium impact player.

He is effective at tackling. He is effective at pressure. But I don't buy he is consistently effective at too much else on a regular enough basis.

But that is my opinion, and you are free to have yours and defend him to the hilt. That's perfectly fine.

We've been spoilt in his sort of role over the past 30 years by having players that can do the defensive part, but be highly influential on a consistent basis in other ways too.

I love watching him and his effort and endeavour are never in question. And I agree we don't play to his strengths. But we don't see enough from him outside of a couple of facets of the game on a regular basis.

And to be honest, I'd take Dunkley or Atkins in a heartbeat over him, as much as I don't want to say that. They are a level above him (though Atkins less so).

Out of curiosity, who are the Swans players who show more than a couple of facets of the game on a regular basis?

I'll give you Isaac Heeney & Errol Gulden. Who else?

 

[the hypnotoad]

King's commentary around Watson sounded deadset creepy - it was bordering on "grooming". At times he made the Wizard sound like the second coming the GAJ Sr, when in reality he had SFA impact on the game.

king's commentary is all so clever after the fact ... he'll discuss a replayed highlight (such as a goal) as if it was the obvious option in the play, and as if he'd already told the audience it would happen ...
any show with him and montagna is unwatchable ... ha, what am i saying!? most footy shows are unwatchable because of whoever's hosting/presenting/w@anking on

 

[kickthething]

Not buying the tired stuff.. A 5 day break 2 games into the season big whoop, they're young athletes it shouldn't be an issue. We had chances late but we just blew them. Some good players on the night but I think our forward 50 entries to Charlie and co weren't great, a lot of long bombs and short passes not to advantage or missing the target.
Tommy Mac getting obliterated by Chol was disappointing. And the 50, he nearly cost us a grand final spot against the Pies but the umpire luckily looked the other way. So still hasn't learnt that rule yet, just a really low footy IQ generally. And he shouldn't be kicking inside 50, they are always just a dump helicopter kick which come back out twice as fast and we're exposed down the other end. Just handball and return to position please.

Callum Mills agrees re tired stuff

 

[Wheresbuddy]

Only seen the highlights so far but I think with 2 key outs, 5 day turn around and trip down to Melbourne to play a team that will be contending in September, its definitely not panic stations. It looks like we did play some good footy in between the shite everyone seems to be referencing. Lets see how we're looking in a month's time.

 

[Foreign Legion]

Looking at the reserves I would say (assuming no injuries) that Cleary out - Adams in. Yes, Adams is old but he was poised in todays game - easily our BOG. Ladhams was good but could be in trouble with tribunal - I've heard that before.

Cunningham very good too. Not handy having 2 byes in first month of reserves when they start 3 weeks into the Season proper. How the hell do players develop? McLean way off it atm.

 

[Maddo11]

Hope the Hawks get fined out the wazoo for not assessing Watson. Also where was the AFL's new impartial medico there to assess clubs adherence to the HIA policy?

 

[Foreign Legion]

Hope the Hawks get fined out the wazoo for not assessing Watson. Also where was the AFL's new impartial medico there to assess clubs adherence to the HIA policy?

You can bet for sure if a Swans player hit him he would have run straight off for the HIA.