List Mgmt. Nick Austin - Head Of List Management

[josephone]

I haven’t calculated any outs in trades as it wasn’t list team’s fault that Curnow, TDK and JSOS wanted out…

Only focused on the players we brought in (or lack of):

• Florent and Hayward have been poor
• Saad had 1 good year, other than that has been poor (in an area of need)

We haven’t traded in any elite match winners (other than through the draft) yet we’ve been happy to waste first rounders on B-Graders…

We need to get better, specially with Tassie coming in and probably a 20th team not long after.

Saad was pretty good his first three years. 6th, 6th and 8th in the B&F. I'm not saying he's a match winner but I will defend the trade-if you look at the 2020 draft you could even suggest it was a bullet dodged. We've got good production from a bloke instead of a list clogging top 10 pick who won't get close to ever being AA.

 

[josephone]

That's the thing to me about judging trades, you need to look at the full picture and that might take years.

If HOF turns into an A-grader, then the Kennedy trade will be viewed as genius.

The Cerra trade is a hard one. Sure there's a world where we keep the pick and take Nasiah, but there's also a world where we've got Josh Gibcus who can't get on the field or Ben Hobbs who's already been delisted by the Bombers.

Meanwhile Cerra has been solid, though not brilliant, and finished 3rd, 4th and 10th in the B&F.

So I don't think it's particularly easy to judge in a lot of cases.

 

[Jimmae]

I hope GW asks the question about Mark McKenzie to replace Austin.

Unless he's got some clear issues with the game style and structure of the Hawks, pass.

I don't rate how they and Sydney operate their list in terms of winning finals, and it's probably going to cost them their windows of opportunity, with the only wild card being Charlie's knee.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Saad was pretty good his first three years. 6th, 6th and 8th in the B&F. I'm not saying he's a match winner but I will defend the trade-if you look at the 2020 draft you could even suggest it was a bullet dodged. We've got good production from a bloke instead of a list clogging top 10 pick who won't get close to ever being AA.

While I’m not a fan of hindsight drafting.

There are a few I’d take over Saad:
Holmes, Neale, Ginnivan & McCreery

Bid On: Gulden or Coleman

Maybe we could have traded into the stacked 2021 draft if we didn’t rate 2020.

Saad is an overall B-Grade player IMO that we paid a high price for, that filled a need for a few years. One player is not going to move the needle of my overall ranking anyway.

 

[Stamos]

While I’m not a fan of hindsight drafting.

There are a few I’d take over Saad:
Holmes, Neale, Ginnivan & McCreery

Bid On: Gulden or Coleman

Maybe we could have traded into the stacked 2021 draft if we didn’t rate 2020.

Saad is an overall B-Grade player IMO that we paid a high price for, that filled a need for a few years. One player is not going to move the needle of my overall ranking anyway.

How do you reckon Ginnivan and McCreery would go if they had been developed by Carlton?

 

[Juddernaut08]

I think this is very much hindsight recruiting.

Kennedy had not been reliable when we brought in Cerra and Hewett (who was cheap). He'd managed 12, 10, 7, and 13 games in his 4 years at Carlton before we brought them in.
Remember everyone screaming that Cripps needed help?

Also, while we obviously needed (and still need) pace, Saad and Williams were both quick.

Williams has ended up being a really poor recruitment, but that's due to fitness and injury, much more than talent or type, even if he was unproven as a regular mid..

Yes hindsight is 20/20, and there are always reasons but part of recruitment is prediction and not overreacting.

At the end of the day, we have to judge on results.

 

[ParaBellum]

While it would be ideal, maybe they don’t even know?
If they’re not getting that feedback at the club, maybe they don’t think it’s the top priority for improvement?

You reckon the players don’t watch Nick Daicos on tv and think to themselves

 

[Ninja Worrier]

How do you reckon Ginnivan and McCreery would go if they had been developed by Carlton?

This is always the question you need to ask when hindsight recruiting

 

[Beer n Skittles]

How do you reckon Ginnivan and McCreery would go if they had been developed by Carlton?

McCreery is quick and has good hands so he'd be fine anywhere, we'd have stuffed up Ginnivan though

 

[TENACIOUS]

How do you reckon Ginnivan and McCreery would go if they had been developed by Carlton?

We’ll never know because they weren’t, that’s why I don’t like hindsight recruiting…

 

[Jimmae]

This is always the question you need to ask when hindsight recruiting

The better question you need to ask is what is the mentality of the individuals involved, and if they have a strong work ethic and good game knowledge, would a density of such talent help overcome the systemic issues, attracting better coaches if required.

It's not all happening in one direction. Not a defense of any party, just tired of seeing the same silly discussion, and an area I suspect our recruitment still falls well short in.

 

[JaggasMoves]

How do you reckon Ginnivan and McCreery would go if they had been developed by Carlton?

I keep seeing this line as a justification to our poor recruiting and list management

Let's consider the following, when a coach departs we are left with the exact same list, why not ensure its one of the best lists in the competition year after year rather the the middling side we have had for 2 decades

 

[Stamos]

I keep seeing this line as a justification to our poor recruiting and list management

Let's consider the following, when a coach departs we are left with the exact same list, why not ensure its one of the best lists in the competition year after year rather the the middling side we have had for 2 decades

I think you're missing the point.

If we drafted Ginnivan, would that be considered good recruitment?
He would have flunked out by now. He didn't even make it at Collingwood.

 

[JaggasMoves]

I think you're missing the point.

If we drafted Ginnivan, would that be considered good recruitment?
He would have flunked out by now. He didn't even make it at Collingwood.

He had a solid stint at the Pies, McCreery wouldn't get any slower or have less aggression if we acquired him

Ainsworth disposal and goal average this year is similar to career output, he is a consistent B grade forward

Chesser similar as well, C grade player throughout his career. Low iq and disposal under pressure is poor. Ask the question on their board

Yet apparently we carltonize players when they walk in the door

 

[TENACIOUS]

I think you're missing the point.

If we drafted Ginnivan, would that be considered good recruitment?
He would have flunked out by now. He didn't even make it at Collingwood.

And you know this for sure!! Are you an AFL psychic?

Or are you assuming your opinion as fact?

 

[gbatman]

A lot of player failure is coaching. We are where players come do die at the moment. Have a look at us.

 

[Gointocarlton]

Especially if they read bigfooty...

Such a Half Arsed response.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Saad was pretty good his first three years. 6th, 6th and 8th in the B&F. I'm not saying he's a match winner but I will defend the trade-if you look at the 2020 draft you could even suggest it was a bullet dodged. We've got good production from a bloke instead of a list clogging top 10 pick who won't get close to ever being AA.

I think Saad has been a win. Traded out of a horrific draft and got a guaranteed very good player. He's lived up to that.

Very disappointed in how he has been used / coached in his time at Carlton where the ultra-conservative / basic Voss style has tried to transform him into a stay home lock-down back pocket.

Really should have been streaming up the field adding real line breaking pace to the team.

Oh well - that's the 5 prime years of a gun backman completely wasted. Never mind Vossy.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Saad was pretty good his first three years. 6th, 6th and 8th in the B&F. I'm not saying he's a match winner but I will defend the trade-if you look at the 2020 draft you could even suggest it was a bullet dodged. We've got good production from a bloke instead of a list clogging top 10 pick who won't get close to ever being AA.

We could/should have spent pick 8 on a player of higher need than a half back...

 

[Blue_Fusion]

and yet all teh 'experts' on here rated Binns as teh next Dow - not being given teh opportunities he deserved...
meanwhile anyone who ahs actually played any level of decent sport- coudl see he was never going to make it - ever..much like 4 VFL current players just will nto make it...

There's more than 4...

 

[teddy-hopkins]

We could/should have spent pick 8 on a player of higher need than a half back...

Who? Name names? Who should we have used pick 9 on?

We ended up with Lij anyway who was around that pick. Got our cake and ate it too yet people still complain.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I think Austin is probably pretty good. Been more depth to his selections than what SOS had so overall he's been an upgrade.

However, the senior coach has a big say in List Management. You look at the impact of Mitchell at Hawthorn. He saw where the game was going and built his team around speed and skilful ball movement.

Voss pointed his LM team in a different direction and we can all see the impact now.

We are not a premiership list - far more because of the strategy the club was pursuing rather than an individual player here or there.

The decision to appoint Voss was yet another own goal by our leadership. Wasted the ten years we spent rebuilding the team all because we appointed a Voss rather than a Mitchell.

 

[Beyond Blue]

We could/should have spent pick 8 on a player of higher need than a half back...

Imo the Covid year was a good draft to trade out of with so little exposed form for the juniors to make proper assessments due to there being no games. Also the Covid lockdowns made for pretty tough circumstances for a teenager to find his way in an already tough football industry.

Technically we overpaid for Saad but he gave us 3 really good years before he started to decline due to repeat injuries. Also the dodo from Essington snookered our efforts to split our first by threatening to match any offer we made on our first pick by virtue of the dodgey compensation pick they got for Daniher.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Who? Name names? Who should we have used pick 9 on?

We ended up with Lij anyway who was around that pick. Got our cake and ate it too yet people still complain.

Nah, you got your cake... and clearly happy with it...

As for who, that's the list manager's job... I could throw out names, you'll say something like but they weren't available and I'll say you don't know that...

Fact is, pick 8 is valuable trade capital and more should be done with it than chasing a late 20's half back when your team hasn't been making finals...

And your point about us getting Elijah for cheap anyway is stupid.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Imo the Covid year was a good draft to trade out of with so little exposed form for the juniors to make proper assessments due to there being no games. Also the Covid lockdowns made for pretty tough circumstances for a teenager to find his way in an already tough football industry.

Technically we overpaid for Saad but he gave us 3 really good years before he started to decline due to repeat injuries. Also the dodo from Essington snookered our efforts to split our first by threatening to match any offer we made on our first pick by virtue of the dodgey compensation pick they got for Daniher.

Like I said, pick 8 should've been used more effectively. Not sure why we're chasing a late 20's half back at that point... looks like it was another futile attempt to "bring in a name".

Saad did give a few good years, but again, a side making finals needing that extra push goes after a player like him.

I think Austin was looking to make some sort of immediate impact... we also got Williams that off season...