NO TROLLS Elijah Hollands (GC-Carlton): Recent Developments & Mental Health Wellbeing

[thumbs_up]

Not sure what you mean. My original foray into this issue was to simply point out that Worksafe investigating Carlton was unsurprising and noted their action against Essendon as a precedent.

Exactly what am I grasping at? Genuinely interested.

Regards

S. Pete

I'm fairly sure the poster you're replying to is drunk.

 

[Skull Face]

Yeah so why, why leave him out there if we acknowledge they knew? It cant have been for the benefit of the team. What was the reasoning?

I'm making an assumption here a lot of it stems from performance anxiety, he nearly had his career ended over it last year and he knows one more mistake it's all over.

The only logical reason for leaving him out there is that he is battling this week to week and the best medical advice has been to let him continue playing and when gets a few touches it will help ease his anxiety. If they remove him from the situation it's only going to make his issues worse.

Then the question becomes what involvment did the club doctor have on match day to be able to assess things had gone too far.

 

[16bit]

I'm fairly sure the poster you're replying to is drunk.

I could definitely smell it on him

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I'm making an assumption here a lot of it stems from performance anxiety, he nearly had his career ended over it last year and he knows one more mistake it's all over.

The only logical reason for leaving him out there is that he is battling this week to week and the best medical advice has been to let him continue playing and when gets a few touches it will help ease his anxiety. If they remove him from the situation it's only going to make his issues worse.

Then the question becomes what involvment did the club doctor have on match day to be able to assess things had gone too far.

That's putting the player before the entire club

There is no logical reason, it's a flailing team in self-preservation mode absolutely losing the plot

 

[CarmenSandiego]

That's putting the player before the entire club

There is no logical reason, it's a flailing team in self-preservation mode absolutely losing the plot

weird strategy of self-preservation to keep a player with 0 touches on then.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

did anyone stop to think why carlton started to lose after we took elijah off?

anyone think that maybe, just maybe, the plan was to put him out there, soak him in spirit, and tell him to run in the wrong direction to purely distract the pies? it's no coincidence we shit the bed when his minutes were taken off him.

ffs people use your brains.

 

[SLF]

Very likely he's had a ... reaction ... to medication he's been prescribed.

Reaction from taking too much of it, mixing it with booze or other substances, or even just being given a new variant of something he'd been on previously with no issues.

 

[sosos]

His punishment is he’ll never play again and will always be remembered for this game .

half the footy players are dumb eccentric bogans, it doesn't surprise me that Holland's twitchy behaviour wasn't picked up. They've got a footy game to play. They're not in the job of cuddling and checking on everyone's welfare pre-game.

Anyway, he won't play afl again.

From everything I have read, I highly doubt that he had ingested anything other than his prescription medicine. Most likely is he was just sick.

Have you been railroaded out of your job for showing up to work with a cold?

This does not mitigate any culpability of the club, leaving him out there with his issues.

 

[Tandy]

If this is a once off and he’s been playing well all year until last week why is it automatically the end of his career?

 

[Soggy2112]

Well Houston laid 2 tackles for the entire game, so even if he made 100% of the tackles on Elijah that’s not much immediate contact.
I think the narrative that Houston came into contact with Elijah and his breath more than his teammates or coaches makes little sense.

The reactions of other Carlton players on the night speak more to not knowing how to react/interact/deal with someone who was going through some sort of heightened emotions and behavior.

This doesn’t necessarily mean he was drunk or had been drinking.

It makes far more sense to me and a few others that these interactions tell a story of players having lived experiences of Elijah in similar circumstances emotionally, rather than it being something as alarming as him being under the influence(as I’m sure they’d not have simply moved on if that was the case).

We don’t know that there weren’t any Carlton players who didn’t smell it on his breath. They’re not gonna come out and publicly say it regardless of what the observed.

Let’s look at the facts:

• Player has known issues with alcohol linking to his mental health struggles.
• Player has a serious mental health episode in game.
• Player’s behaviour is erratic, and not entirely inconsistent with how a person might act while under the influence.
• Other players appear to say to each other that they could smell alcohol on his breath.

It seems really likely that he had been drinking.

Now, a lot of this will get waived away because of the need to give Elijah privacy and that is correct.

However, if it is true that a player was able to enter the field while under the influence, that is a huge issue. That simply can’t happen and there needs to be mechanisms to prevent that for the safety of everyone involved. We won’t get them, but as people who pay taxes and contribute financially to the league we deserve answers from the AFL on that point.

 

[Lockyer24]

Do you think the Carlton doctors assessed him multiple times throughout the game, but could not deduce that he was under the influence?

I’m all for science and trusting professionals

But….

The Petracca incident was a disgrace.

And so was this.

The pros were inept in both cases.

 

[Soggy2112]

No one is wrapping their arms around anything. It's performative virtue signalling. People see someone cooked walking down the street and they cast nothing but scorn at the scum they've had to encounter. Yet a millionaire footballer running around cooked on tv receives only the most heartfelt thoughts and prayers. Spare me.

I don’t think people look at someone off the head in the street with scorn.

I think it’s generally indifference/fear.

A) People are generally too busy dealing with their own shit to stop and take notice.
B) People on substances can be erratic and dangerous. You can have empathy for a person, while also choosing to not interact with them for your own safety.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I’m all for science and trusting professionals

But….

The Petracca incident was a disgrace.

And so was this.

The pros were inept in both cases.

Yes, but that’s a separate incident with different observable symptoms.

Let’s talk about this one, you’ve been quite adamant that alcohol was involved, do you think that doctors could do multiple assessments of a player and keep him on the ground if he was this visibly affected by alcohol?

 

[Lockyer24]

Yes, but that’s a separate incident with different observable symptoms.

Let’s talk about this one, you’ve been quite adamant that alcohol was involved, do you think that doctors could do multiple assessments of a player and keep him on the ground if he was this visibly affected by alcohol?

They didn’t conclude he likely had alcohol until they found data and evidence to prove it post game.

Are we sure they assessed him multiple times? Even from far away many thought he looked impaired. No answer really paints them in a good light and I bring up other incidents like Petracca and the many HIA head incidents club doctors ignore, because clearly they are conflicted by “rotations” than actually looking after the players health. This and the Petracca incident were inexcusable, fat drunks on the couch at home could diagnose better than these two incidents.

 

[RCAB]

I don't think he had alcohol.

And if he did it would've been a very small amount but maybe enough to cause an interaction which may have caused the episode.

Most likely... he was embarrassed the way he was acting, and had to explain it somehow.

 

[Skinny10]

I don't think he had alcohol.

And if he did it would've been a very small amount but maybe enough to cause an interaction which may have caused the episode.

Most likely... he was embarrassed the way he was acting, and had to explain it somehow.

Unfortunately Lockyer24 is right, the club are aware that he was drinking. Obviously this won't come out

 

[PenAndPaper]

Unfortunately Lockyer24 is right, the club are aware that he was drinking. Obviously this won't come out

Interesting account creation date and posting history...

 

[yeahmate]

It might come out if he chooses to get it out in the open himself at some time in the future in his recovery. Otherwise its not a WADA issue and so really not for anyone else to make public

 

[Sphynx]

The news cycle has begun to move on.

Carlton have said two fifths of nothing approcaching a week later.

Odds on a small statement in 2 weeks time they try to bury?

"Continuing to support Elijah... etc"

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Me too brother . You have to an active risk to yourself or those around you, I believe. Not enough beds to section mildly loose units .

Had a mate actively trying to end his life and a hospital still turned him away

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

We don’t know that there weren’t any Carlton players who didn’t smell it on his breath. They’re not gonna come out and publicly say it regardless of what the observed.

I know someone within the conditioning team at another AFL club who has spoken with a Carlton player. They have confirmed that at least one Carlton player told the coaches that Elijah shouldn’t be on the ground. Alcohol was not mentioned.

I"m sorry, but you've got to be crazy to think Carlton players couldn't smell alcohol, but Houston could.....or...that Carlton players could and chose to say nothing of it. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit?

We've also had a poster here explain how some medication can impact the breath, and how that could be mistaken for booze breath.

Let’s look at the facts:

• Player has known issues with alcohol linking to his mental health struggles.
• Player has a serious mental health episode in game.
• Player’s behaviour is erratic, and not entirely inconsistent with how a person might act while under the influence.
• Other players appear to say to each other that they could smell alcohol on his breath.

Let’s look at these more pertinent facts about the night in question.

• We saw a visibly erratic player take the field for more than 3 quarters.
• We know the docs assessed him multiple times as the AGE has reported.
• We know Carlton had data to show he was nowhere near it, and they kept him on.
• We know his teammates were awkward around him. This was easily observed.
• We saw assistant coaches and Voss talking intimately with him at breaks.

Him being so visibly affected by alcohol or drugs does not at all fit with any of the above instances, unless you want to believe that an entire football club were OK with having a player under the influence take the field and stay there.

It seems really likely that he had been drinking.

Only if you think Carlton’s doctors could not assess drinking being a cause of his behavior(completely ignoring the history of drinking issues) in the multiple times that they assessed him…while an opponent, could.

Oh, and that no Carlton player, doc or coach could either identify or smell the drink, and if they did, choose to do nothing about it.

Sounds like complete nonsense to me, and goes against the balance of probabilities.

Now, a lot of this will get waived away because of the need to give Elijah privacy and that is correct.

However, if it is true that a player was able to enter the field while under the influence, that is a huge issue. That simply can’t happen and there needs to be mechanisms to prevent that for the safety of everyone involved. We won’t get them, but as people who pay taxes and contribute financially to the league we deserve answers from the AFL on that point.

I’m a little perplexed that a lot of people haven’t been able to put 2 and 2 together with all of the available info.

All of the above points indicate that Carlton clearly knew he was battling with something and they wanted him to play through it(some sort of mental health/anxiety issue), as another poster above has explained.

Thats a far more likely than a scenario than someone with a history of alcohol issues managed to drink before a game and then get through 3 quarters without anyone at his club being aware or picking up on it, all while he didn't trouble the stat sheet, assessed by docs mutliple times and ran around quite cluelessly.
If they didn't suspect drinking or couldn't assess that he had been drinking and it turns out that he had, then they should just pack it in.

It's quite evident Carlton(Voss) wanted Holland's to work through it(regardless of what he had or hadn't taken). They ran the gauntlet and failed miserably.
Pure negligence on their behalf, and a complete breakdown of their duty of care which Worksafe will almost undoubtedly find.
They deserve the strong penalty headed their way.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

if positive, this is a life-long ban from AFL just like what happened to Joel Smith. It's absolutely no different. if anything worse.

If it was going to be positive he'd not have fronted for the test.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

They didn’t conclude he likely had alcohol until they found data and evidence to prove it post game.

Are we sure they assessed him multiple times? Even from far away many thought he looked impaired. No answer really paints them in a good light and I bring up other incidents like Petracca and the many HIA head incidents club doctors ignore, because clearly they are conflicted by “rotations” than actually looking after the players health. This and the Petracca incident were inexcusable, fat drunks on the couch at home could diagnose better than these two incidents.

If Carlton doctors have assessed him multiple times and not been able to either detect or suspect alcohol consumption, then they should all have their licences taken off them.

And I have to add, in response to a suggestion that he could have had a small amount of alcohol and it interacted with his medication, you’ve got ask how a club could have a player on their list with a history of mental health and substance issues(including alcohol), who then presents like they did in game, and neither the coach, doctors, psychologist or other footy dept heads could either identify that alcohol had been consumed or that his behavior was a consequence of it.

If he’s been drinking, with the history he has and no one within Carlton could either identify it or think to suspect it and then have him sit out of the game, and instead just have him play out the game, they should just burn the joint down.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

He could hardly refuse, could he?

Of course they won’t divulge the result. Have they ever?

Yeah he could, easily.

If he wasn't tested on the day as part of normal game day testing then all he needs is a sick cert to avoid testing indefinitely. Then he's a shaved head away from it never happening.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

If I was Barrett, then I'd try to hide the fact.

To do that I'd obviously avoid terms like 'broader' and any other words heavily associated with said Barrett. Hopefully Shane will send through a list.

I don't think he can change it. He speaks in literal python code

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