'05 midfield dynamics

[WaynesWorld19]

OK he has been working over the pre-season on his pace and his agility and even during his rehab from injury he was working on it. It wasn't over 2/3rds of the season it was over a longer period of time.

The comments were still forthcoming this season !
And on his so called dramatic improvement - pull the other one

Funny how Neil Craig reckons that Rutten has improved those aspects of his game and is doing more excersises now in order to improve it further. He will bever become a Scarlett in terms of agility but if he improves it to the level that is acceptable then he will be a very good player for us

Gee amazing a coach talking up his player - how unusual

Nice little dig there. I am pretty sure you are smart enough to use the search function to find what I said about Rutten. I have been singing his praises well before you even joined BF. I don't appreacite being called a liar

Stiffy I don't dig or beat around the bush - If I call someone a liar I'll come straight out and say it. If I want to make a general observation (as I have done here) I will - stop being so sensitive.

 

[Mad Dog]

I think this is Mattner's big chance to step up and become a tagger. Its the only way he will get a game in the side.

Shirley, Mattner, Torney, Begley and even Reilly will be used for tagging roles throughout the year depending on the circumstances.

Shirley is probably the most proven out of that lot as far as tagging goes. Problem is, apart from his tagging he doesn't offer much more flexibility.

Agreeed - I think Mattner has the mental application to do the job - it also keeps him in the game and takes him to where the ball is........I wouldn't like to see Reilly restricted though.
As for Doughty............I've seen enough of his cartoon character "which way did he go" impressions..... He obviously graduated from the A McLeod school of "where's my opponent"

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Correct re Mattner. He's a good tagger as a wingman, but not when he's playing the run with role. He's been carved when tried that way.

Shirley is the best we've got for that role to date, but I think you might well be right with the suggestion of Doughty. Both of these guys are in the top aerobic bracket in our squad. Torney could do cameo stints, but would run out of puff if played there all game IMO.

I can't see any others suitable for that role, so the sensible thing would be all out attack from the mid-field guns such as Roo, Macca, Edwards, Goodwin plus Thompson, with Shirley and Doughty doing the run with roles.

Unfortunately the list currently does not present us with first class options.
So it will be a bit of trial and error.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

I think people need to realise in the case of Bock, that he hasnt been delisited because hes just had his first season of senior football and there is alot of improvement left in him. Admitedley im one of the few who actualy thought he was alright this year, and i think he can really improve into a good player. Remember Ken Mcgregor in his first few years, nobody rated him and im sure alot of people wanted to flick him. Personally i dont think Bocks form actually warranted the number of games he got but he did enough in his first year of AFL footy for me.
I think a better assessment of Bock can be made after next season.
As for Skipworth, i was ready to wave him goodbye after a few unproductive years, but his last month and a half of footy was pretty good i thought. definitiely worth another go if he can produce that consistantly.

It's not Bocks form at AFL level that worries me, it's his form at sanfl level. Did you see him play in the finals, he was bloody hopeless.

 

[No 1 Draft Pick]

Morning All

Doughty doesnt seemed to be well liked by Crows fans here. I gotta say I like him and he would always make my starting line up - but I dont think half back flank or tagger are his positions

As Stiffy said in 2002 he was a gun player playing WING - this is his position. He has good endurance, runs hard, penentrating kick and handy around goals. In close I think he is also strong with good disposal skills - in particular handball either side

I believe Reilly is more accountable as a half back. Burton (if 2003 form can be rekindled), Johncock and Doughty would be my 3 wing options in 2005.

 

[Fudd]

It's not Bocks form at AFL level that worries me, it's his form at sanfl level. Did you see him play in the finals, he was bloody hopeless.

a couple of bad games doesnt doom a career for me.

 

[Mad Dog]

im just going to single out Doughty because he has been the player that has been highly discussed in this thread.

as said he wouldnt make a top 8 team, he may be there as a depth player and there lies our problem. we dont want players that are depth players as one who would be in our first 22, that is our biggest players, we have a top tier then a tier of players that are good depth players and nothing more but these blokes are in our best team he is suppose to be an attacking player as stated not a defensive one but he only had two games where he got 20 possesions, didnt have any higher than that and he played 18 of the 22 games. He is 25 and isnt the type of player we need in our starting 18, in my mind he probably shouldve been delisted. The bigger problem is craig likes blokes like him, bock and skipworth who arent AFL standard and plans to keep them in the team because they are his project players. NEIL WE WILL NEVER WIN A PREMIERSHIP WITH THEM IN OUR TEAM

spot on once again RooDog.......our reliance / expectations of these types of players is what has got me worried about the next 2 years...I hate being pessimistic......but I reckon 2005 is going to be an exercise in excorsising some of these players from our squad.

 

[conVINCEd]

I believe Reilly is more accountable as a half back. Burton (if 2003 form can be rekindled), Johncock and Doughty would be my 3 wing options in 2005.

Reilly should be on the wing next year, IMO.

He'll be a centreman in a couple of years.

He is our best young midfielder - so play him in the midfield.

 

[mymansyd]

Reilly should be on the wing next year, IMO.

He'll be a centreman in a couple of years.

He is our best young midfielder - so play him in the midfield.

Agreed, Reilly should be moved into the midfield ASAP. We've got enough half-back options for next year. Torney, Hart, Begley, Johncock, even Goodwin will all do the job back there.

Get Reilly into the midfield, ******** the Birdman off to the forward 50 and let's build towards that grand final in 2007.

 

[RooDog]

spot on once again RooDog.......our reliance / expectations of these types of players is what has got me worried about the next 2 years...I hate being pessimistic......but I reckon 2005 is going to be an exercise in excorsising some of these players from our squad.

yep it could be... looking at our squad:

PLAYERS WHO WOULD MAKE TOP 8 TEAMS BEST 22:

Riccuito
McLeod
Goodwin
Edwards
McGregor
Hart
Thompson-maybe
Burton-maybe
Clarke


PLAYERS WHO WOULD BE 30-40 ON TOP 8 TEAMS LISTS

Basset
Begley
Biglands
Bode-maybe
Hentschel-has ability to step up into top group though
Johnock-see Hentchel
Reilly-see Hentschel
M. Stevens- possibly top group but too many injuries
Torney
Welsh- border line with top group
Rutten-see Hentschel
Doughty-border line with bottom group
Jericho-jury stil out where he belongs

PLAYERS WHO WOULDNT EVEN BE ON OTHER TEAMS LISTS

Skipworth
S. Stevens
Smith
Shirley
Schuback
Perrie- maybe a tad harsh
Mattner
Massie
Ladhams
Gallagher- delisted anyway
Bock

the problem lies with the fact we need significant numbers in top group and ours are in the bottom 2. I didnt consider Watts, Hudson or Krueger because they had only had one year on the list and are all still developing and learning. Maybe i was a tad harsh but the AFC has been excepting mediocrity for way too long and needs to learn from port, who at the end of last year delisted Paxman, everyone was thinking why would you... but it turned out to be the right move. We need to become harsh and just delist those not up to it, time for Craigy tog et over his pet project players and be realistic!

 

[tribey]

PLAYERS WHO WOULD MAKE TOP 8 TEAMS BEST 22:

Riccuito
McLeod
Goodwin
Edwards
McGregor
Hart
Thompson-maybe
Burton-maybe
Clarke


PLAYERS WHO WOULD BE 30-40 ON TOP 8 TEAMS LISTS

Basset
Begley
Biglands
Bode-maybe
Hentschel-has ability to step up into top group though
Johnock-see Hentchel
Reilly-see Hentschel
M. Stevens- possibly top group but too many injuries
Torney
Welsh- border line with top group
Rutten-see Hentschel
Doughty-border line with bottom group
Jericho-jury stil out where he belongs

PLAYERS WHO WOULDNT EVEN BE ON OTHER TEAMS LISTS

Skipworth
S. Stevens
Smith
Shirley
Schuback
Perrie- maybe a tad harsh
Mattner
Massie
Ladhams
Gallagher- delisted anyway
Bock

That's how we've got to look at it.

Ruthlessness is needed.

Do we want to set up a medium to long term road back to finals football or don't we?

Unfortunately the horse has already bolted and it will take a good 2-3 years to turn over all that mediocrity, unless there's some sort of miracle improvement across the board.

 

[mymansyd]

the problem lies with the fact we need significant numbers in top group and ours are in the bottom 2. I didnt consider Watts, Hudson or Krueger because they had only had one year on the list and are all still developing and learning. Maybe i was a tad harsh but the AFC has been excepting mediocrity for way too long and needs to learn from port, who at the end of last year delisted Paxman, everyone was thinking why would you... but it turned out to be the right move. We need to become harsh and just delist those not up to it, time for Craigy tog et over his pet project players and be realistic!

We DO need to get ruthless, hopefully Alan Stewart will aid in this department.

I'm pretty sure we'll have a pretty major clean-up at the end of 2005. Lots of mediocre players survived the cut this year due to the 3 retirements and apparent contractual restraints.

I'd be bloody amazed if guys like Ladhams, Shirley, Bock, Massie, Mattner, Doughty were on our list come 2006. It's make-or-break for these dudes next season.

 

[Mad Dog]

We DO need to get ruthless, hopefully Alan Stewart will aid in this department.

I'm pretty sure we'll have a pretty major clean-up at the end of 2005. Lots of mediocre players survived the cut this year due to the 3 retirements and apparent contractual restraints.

I'd be bloody amazed if guys like Ladhams, Shirley, Bock, Massie, Mattner, Doughty were on our list come 2006. It's make-or-break for these dudes next season.

is that dudes or dudds..?.....
........either way.........

 

[Fudd]

last few years before this season were hardly mediocre.

 

[No 1 Draft Pick]

PLAYERS WHO WOULD BE 30-40 ON TOP 8 TEAMS LISTS

Biglands
Johnock-see Hentchel
Welsh- border line with top group



Agree with most of your analysis, but I reckon these 3 lads above would be in most top 8 teams

 

[RooDog]

PLAYERS WHO WOULD BE 30-40 ON TOP 8 TEAMS LISTS

Biglands
Johnock-see Hentchel
Welsh- border line with top group



Agree with most of your analysis, but I reckon these 3 lads above would be in most top 8 teams

welsh: at his best yet, but has been inconsistent
johncock: probably but still needs to work on his game, tends to drop in and out of games but is only young
biglands: maybe, but he is a very one dimensional player but is learning to play forward.

like DT said.... RUTHLESSNESS

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

That's how we've got to look at it.

Ruthlessness is needed.

Do we want to set up a medium to long term road back to finals football or don't we?

Unfortunately the horse has already bolted and it will take a good 2-3 years to turn over all that mediocrity, unless there's some sort of miracle improvement across the board.

I agree with you, Mad Dog and Roodog ( might have to change my name to SpringDog ), and at the risk of being labelled a pessimist, I think we are up ******** creek unless we do some serious drafting/trading in the next few years. The more I look at our list, the worse it gets. I could think of 14 players who SHOULD be playing for their lives in 2005.

Listening too Craigy recently has also raised concerns about our coach. Is he ruthless enough, is he tough enough to make the hard decisions, I doubt it. If I hear him label Nathan Bock as a promising youngster one more time i'll fu$$$$$$$..We all know the Trade is harsh and tough, but use it to your advantage like Port does, instead of crying about it.

I maybe too harsh but I have a bad feeling that i'm not. Time will tell.

Now I know why Geelong supporters despise Ayres.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

We DO need to get ruthless, hopefully Alan Stewart will aid in this department.

I'm pretty sure we'll have a pretty major clean-up at the end of 2005. Lots of mediocre players survived the cut this year due to the 3 retirements and apparent contractual restraints.

I'd be bloody amazed if guys like Ladhams, Shirley, Bock, Massie, Mattner, Doughty were on our list come 2006. It's make-or-break for these dudes next season.

I know Shirley, Mattner, Bock and Doughty will be, they have all signed two year contracts. Why don't we do what Port does, and sign our iffy players ( half the team ) to 1 yr contracts??

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

a couple of bad games doesnt doom a career for me.

You know, I have never actually witnessed Bock play a good game, at any level.

 

[crowsarethebest]

We have to have a cleanout next year. we got heaps of duds in our side. Look at the depth of sides like geelong st killda. Thier list is young as well.

 

[Fudd]

I agree with you, Mad Dog and Roodog ( might have to change my name to SpringDog ), and at the risk of being labelled a pessimist, I think we are up ******** creek unless we do some serious drafting/trading in the next few years. The more I look at our list, the worse it gets. I could think of 14 players who SHOULD be playing for their lives in 2005.

Listening too Craigy recently has also raised concerns about our coach. Is he ruthless enough, is he tough enough to make the hard decisions, I doubt it. If I hear him label Nathan Bock as a promising youngster one more time i'll fu$$$$$$$..We all know the Trade is harsh and tough, but use it to your advantage like Port does, instead of crying about it.

I maybe too harsh but I have a bad feeling that i'm not. Time will tell.

Now I know why Geelong supporters despise Ayres.

Ofcourse Craigy is going to say Bock is a promising youngster. Hes hardly going to say that he is a dud and wont get a game. Just because the coach says stuff in the media doesnt mean he lives by that IMO.
Personally i think Craig did the right thing this year in the trades. We had enough retirees that only minimal changes would be forced, and by getting rid of our duds we were not assured of getting anything better in returnwith late picks in this years draft. It would have been foolish just to delist/trade them all away for guys that wont even be as good.
Like many have said, the real cull will begin next year after Neil has had the side for a year himself. Who knows, some of these guys might respond really well to Craigy, god knows they didnt respond to Ayres but thats somewhat understandable. Just look at Reilly under half a season with Craigy. WE all knew he would be a gun but it took the change in coach for it really happen.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

Ofcourse Craigy is going to say Bock is a promising youngster. Hes hardly going to say that he is a dud and wont get a game. Just because the coach says stuff in the media doesnt mean he lives by that IMO.
Personally i think Craig did the right thing this year in the trades. We had enough retirees that only minimal changes would be forced, and by getting rid of our duds we were not assured of getting anything better in returnwith late picks in this years draft. It would have been foolish just to delist/trade them all away for guys that wont even be as good.
Like many have said, the real cull will begin next year after Neil has had the side for a year himself. Who knows, some of these guys might respond really well to Craigy, god knows they didnt respond to Ayres but thats somewhat understandable. Just look at Reilly under half a season with Craigy. WE all knew he would be a gun but it took the change in coach for it really happen.

Yeah I agree the big clean out will be in 2005 but I still find it disappointing they will remain on our list. On the plus side, when the players we have mentioned do get a game, they SHOULD be playing like every game is their last.
It would be interesting to determine which "iffy" players will be out of contract at the end of 2005.

 

[crowsarethebest]

Yeah I agree the big clean out will be in 2005 but I still find it disappointing they will remain on our list. On the plus side, when the players we have mentioned do get a game, they SHOULD be playing like every game is their last.
It would be interesting to determine which "iffy" players will be out of contract at the end of 2005.

At least we gave them a chance to proove themselfs. Next year they'll be playing for their careers. They can't winge now by saying they didn't get a chance.

 

[Mad Dog]

yep it could be... looking at our squad:

PLAYERS WHO WOULD MAKE TOP 8 TEAMS BEST 22:

Riccuito
McLeod
Goodwin
Edwards
McGregor
Hart
Thompson-maybe
Burton-maybe
Clarke


PLAYERS WHO WOULD BE 30-40 ON TOP 8 TEAMS LISTS

Basset
Begley
Biglands
Bode-maybe
Hentschel-has ability to step up into top group though
Johnock-see Hentchel
Reilly-see Hentschel
M. Stevens- possibly top group but too many injuries
Torney
Welsh- border line with top group
Rutten-see Hentschel
Doughty-border line with bottom group
Jericho-jury stil out where he belongs

PLAYERS WHO WOULDNT EVEN BE ON OTHER TEAMS LISTS

Skipworth
S. Stevens
Smith
Shirley
Schuback
Perrie- maybe a tad harsh
Mattner
Massie
Ladhams
Gallagher- delisted anyway
Bock

the problem lies with the fact we need significant numbers in top group and ours are in the bottom 2. I didnt consider Watts, Hudson or Krueger because they had only had one year on the list and are all still developing and learning. Maybe i was a tad harsh but the AFC has been excepting mediocrity for way too long and needs to learn from port, who at the end of last year delisted Paxman, everyone was thinking why would you... but it turned out to be the right move. We need to become harsh and just delist those not up to it, time for Craigy tog et over his pet project players and be realistic!

Agreed.....I ask myself the same question each week during the season - and it's pretty much how I selected the 2005 side......"Would they get a game in a top 8 side?"..........nice analysis but I would have to say Burton and Clarke wouldn't make your average top 8 side.........would they get a game with the Lions??...Paps??.....Saints???? - I doubt it

I think Johncock and Begley....would be in most top 8 best 22s....Reilly and Henschel are only a season away from that as well.

I think Mattner is the only stand out from the bottom group........I'll officially be a Marty fan for '05....to be reviewed at R22 next year.

 

[Fudd]

Agreed.....I ask myself the same question each week during the season - and it's pretty much how I selected the 2005 side......"Would they get a game in a top 8 side?"..........nice analysis but I would have to say Burton and Clarke wouldn't make your average top 8 side.........would they get a game with the Lions??...Paps??.....Saints???? - I doubt it

I think Johncock and Begley....would be in most top 8 best 22s....Reilly and Henschel are only a season away from that as well.

I think Mattner is the only stand out from the bottom group........I'll officially be a Marty fan for '05....to be reviewed at R22 next year.

you dont think burton would get a game with the saints over Guerra or Milne? They have some very good players at the saints, but i still think they have a few passengers. Not nearly as strong across the board as Port, the lions or even geelong IMO. I rate cats higher than saints. Saints have more Superstars but geelong are more even i htink. Personally i think Burton would get a spot in any team in the league, providing he plays up forward, or his disposal returns to what it was 2003.