2005/06 - Looking Back?

[Simon_Nesbit]

INTRUDER ALERT - sorry guys, just running some thoughts around for a post on the Hawthorn board, and looking for some insight.

As a Hawk supporter, our 2009 squad age/experience statistics are similar to Geelong's in 2006, which started my comparison. We've had a shit year for injuries (14+ not playing any football each week, internal (guess) estimates have only 3 players unaffected by injury so far compared with 11 making it through all of 2008, and 22 fit for finals) - and it shows on the ladder at the moment, only some very fortunate results keeping us up with a shot at 3rd.

In 2005/6, I was under the impression that you were 'due' for a strong finals performance, but these never really eventuated until 2007.

I could be completely wrong here (as my memory of your team back then is pretty flimsy), but would I be correct in saying you had most of your 07/08 '22' together during this time?

Was it a case of injury? Too early in the development stage? Players yet to find their position? Or was is the recruitment of new senior players Ottens/etc..

What do you think was the 'cause' of your 05/06 finishes, compared to 2007 (where obviously something 'clicked')?

 

[fpm84]

What do you think was the 'cause' of your 05/06 finishes, compared to 2007 (where obviously something 'clicked')?

- Mooney was a utility until mid-2006, when became a permanent forward. Was clearly a great move and kicked more than 120 goals in 2007-08. Before this, Kent Kingsley (eek!) was our key forward.
- Mooney didn't have decent support alongside him in 2006, but had N. Ablett in 2007 and Hawkins ever since. As you would know as a Hawks supporter, you need two tall targets up there.
- G. Ablett, Steve Johnson, Bartel etc all moved from good, solid players to potential superstars in late 2006/early 2007.
- Mental sharpness - up to the end of 2006 we lost a number of games we 'should' have won against less skilled teams. It wasn't until the infamous round 5, 2007 loss to North Melbourne when the flick was finally switched and we came mentally prepared to each and every game, regardless of our opponent's ladder position.
- We picked up a guy called Joel Selwood. You may have heard of him.
- Bomber's gameplan in 2006 was haphazard - some weeks we'd score highly, other weeks we'd struggle to kick 8 or 9 goals and our midfield would be constantly kicking backwards and sideways instead of using the corridor. When the switch was flicked in 2007, we played fast, direct, corridor, play-on-at-all-costs football every week.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Nobody?

Ok then, I did some research, and using the "premiership #" (all premiers bar Port 04 have had 19 players play at least 20 games in their premiership season. Port had 20 play 19 games).

Geelong 08 - 19 Players
07 - 19
06 - 11 (Egan)
05 - 14 (Riccardi, Kingsley, Playfair)
04 - 14 (Graham, Gardiner)

Interestingly, St.Kilda have had 22 players play all but one game so far. Their injury run to date has been similar to the way we finished 08 (Our 22 all played at least six of the last 7 weeks of the season).

 

[year of the cat]

In addition we changed captains and with Harley in front had the leadership at the top we badly needed.

Abletts move into the middle was vital too. We were far too stagnant prior to that.

A run and carry at all costs attitude helped. A defined game plan to get the ball quickly down to our forwards through the centre corridor was very effective.

By the way you guys should just roll over now and prepare for next year

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

- Mooney was a utility until mid-2006, when became a permanent forward. Was clearly a great move and kicked more than 120 goals in 2007-08. Before this, Kent Kingsley (eek!) was our key forward. Understandable. Mooney may not be a great player, but Kingsley would have been barely AFL class?
- Mooney didn't have decent support alongside him in 2006, but had N. Ablett in 2007 and Hawkins ever since. As you would know as a Hawks supporter, you need two tall targets up there. Agree. It'd be nice if our guys stopped spoiling each other though!
- G. Ablett, Steve Johnson, Bartel etc all moved from good, solid players to potential superstars in late 2006/early 2007. Any idea on what it was? Always had the talent - was it a case of experience? Fitness?
- Mental sharpness - up to the end of 2006 we lost a number of games we 'should' have won against less skilled teams. It wasn't until the infamous round 5, 2007 loss to North Melbourne when the flick was finally switched and we came mentally prepared to each and every game, regardless of our opponent's ladder position. I wonder if there was an 'experience' switch with regards to this (the magical 50 game mark). Or maybe someone put the rocket up Thompson.
- We picked up a guy called Joel Selwood. You may have heard of him. Oh, you mean that guy that was almost as good as Rioli?
- Bomber's gameplan in 2006 was haphazard - some weeks we'd score highly, other weeks we'd struggle to kick 8 or 9 goals and our midfield would be constantly kicking backwards and sideways instead of using the corridor. When the switch was flicked in 2007, we played fast, direct, corridor, play-on-at-all-costs football every week. Interesting you say that. One of AC's criticisms was his method was almost always the same...no plan B. Ironic when you consider 2008 and the criticism levelled at Thompson (for entirely different, though ultimately similar reasons).

Thanks.

 

[year of the cat]

Didn't realise it was a rhetorical question. Now piss off if you are just coming in here to make a point and stop wasting our time.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

In addition we changed captains and with Harley in front had the leadership at the top we badly needed.

Abletts move into the middle was vital too. We were far to stagnant prior to that.

A run and carry at all costs attitude helped. A defined game plan to get the ball quickly down to our forwards through the centre corridor was very effective.

By the way you guys should just roll over now and prepare for next year

With regards to Harley, is his reputation enhanced by what came after? Or were the raps there before 07?

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

It wasn't rhetorical. No-one had answered so I looked it up. Indeed the stats do provide a strong indication of ladder position (generally <12 = you're stuffed).

It's hard from the outside looking in to know what factors there are.

For example Bateman played 20+ games in 06, 07, 08....yet it was only late in 2007 he started to really influence games. I'm sure you would know your own players far better than me.

 

[OldStyle2007]

We weren't far off in 2005. Narrowly lost to Swans in Semi final. Arguably if we had won that match we would have beaten Saints in the prelim and who knows how we would have gone in the GF versus the Eagles (we soundly beat them in the last few rounds of 2005)

As for why we clicked in 2007, one of the answers is that we had Joel Selwood. Without the horrible year in 2006, we wouldn't have been able to draft Selwood

Also, Chappy said the other night that after the loss to north in 2007 there was a big heart to heart session and the players committed to "playing how we're told to play". Interesting to hear chappy think that team-members weren't following instructions up until that point

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

The more I look into your 2005 season, the more it reminds me of our 2007 season. We were younger and less experienced, but within the season results and performances were tracking a similar path.

In 2008 when we had similar age/experience attributes to your 05, we got lucky with no injuries at the right time, and steamrolled everyone.

If you had 'got lucky' in 05 and won the premiership - where do you think you would be now? Would there have been a 'heart-to-heart' 12 months after a premiership?

 

[re cat]

So this is really about Tasmania.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Was it a case of injury? Too early in the development stage? Players yet to find their position? Or was is the recruitment of new senior players Ottens/etc..

What do you think was the 'cause' of your 05/06 finishes, compared to 2007 (where obviously something 'clicked')?

the cause of our 05/06 finishes was a combination of lack of fitness, lack of discipline both on (Mooney) and off-field (S. Johnson, Mackie etc.), poor leadership - including a poor choice of captain, an inferior "chip-sideways" gameplan, Kent Kingsley being our focal point up forward and then trying to make Ottens be something that he isn't, carrying Riccardi through those last two seasons (sorry guys but we did carry him) and players outside our best 22 not pulling their weight when brought in for injuries.

 

[KevinCat07]

I believe we changed our attitude, especially after the North game in 07. Sometimes the most simplest explantion is the correct one.

 

[hamG]

We were a very good side in '04 and '05 finals and were very very close both years in the prelim and the semi. We weren't 'due' for anything back then but gave it a big shake regardless, and Nick Davis is a ****in dick.

 

[thejester]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. In 04/05 we were a young, developing side that was probably ahead of schedule. We lacked a decent key forward and the '99-'01 guys were still too raw to go all the way.

'06 was an aberration. Our gameplan was shit, our fitness was shit, the coach was in the middle of a divorce and we still hadn't fixed our structural issues. We'd match really good teams one week then get blown out of the water by the likes of Richmond the next. Having said that in a sense it was crucial because it gave a wake up call on all those issues. We got rid of the deadwood and put Mooney forward, Ottens in the ruck, and put Mackie on a HBF. Egan cemented his spot at CHB, allowing Scarlett to play a more attacking role. And finally, in the off-season we drafted Selwood, suspended Steve Johnson, and turned Ablett from a freakish small-forward-cum-mid into the elite player he is now.

So we had the developing core on the park in 05/06, and a lot of the guys on the list, but not really our best 22. This was the 22 we put out against the Swans:

B: Milburn Scarlett D. Johnson
HB: Sanderson Egan Harley
C: Enright Corey Tenace
HF: Ablett Playfair Kelly
F: Johnson Kingsley Gardiner
R: King Bartel Ling
I/C: Mooney Hunt Rooke Mackie

Riccardi and Ottens definitely would have played if fit, not sure about Chapman. But that gives you an idea. No Stokes, no Varcoe, no Ablett/Lonergan/Hawkins and most crucially no Joel Selwood.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Hopefully I'll get to see you play live again this year - one game I ALWAYS sit in my reserved seats for - whilst the atmosphere is nowhere as good - the sheer beauty of watching GOOD footy from that viewpoint is fantastic.

(Perhaps with a different result to rd.1)

 

[chapmanmagic35]

We weren't far off in 2005. Narrowly lost to Swans in Semi final. Arguably if we had won that match we would have beaten Saints in the prelim and who knows how we would have gone in the GF versus the Eagles (we soundly beat them in the last few rounds of 2005)

As for why we clicked in 2007, one of the answers is that we had Joel Selwood. Without the horrible year in 2006, we wouldn't have been able to draft Selwood

Also, Chappy said the other night that after the loss to north in 2007 there was a big heart to heart session and the players committed to "playing how we're told to play". Interesting to hear chappy think that team-members weren't following instructions up until that point

I think we were further away than people think in '05. We were hanging on for dear life against Sydney & I think St Kilda would've beaten us.

We were 13-11 in '05. Hardly first class.

 

[Glassjaw]

We'd have gotten smacked if we beat Sydney. Too many injuries that year.

2006 was the aberration it seems we needed. It got a rocket up Gaz and Stevie who have been incredible since. It got us Selwood. And it brought about a change in leadership at the club.

Also, a massive part to the success of 07 was Bomber growing somewhat of a brain and deciding to play people in the right positions:

Ottens to ruck instead of forward
Corey on the ball instead of down back
Ling as a tagger not an attacking midfielder
Mackie to the backs from the wing/up forward

Amongst others. Improved us exponentially.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

We'd have gotten smacked if we beat Sydney. Too many injuries that year.

Well we know what happened so i would have thought we where a better chance against you than Sydney.

 

[Glassjaw]

Well we know what happened so i would have thought we where a better chance against you than Sydney.

Saints would have rolled us easy. If we jagged that I would have given us a good shot the Eagles. We always played well against them when they were at their peak. Dished them up by 76 points Round 21 that year.

 

[Partridge]

Also, a massive part to the success of 07 was Bomber growing somewhat of a brain and deciding to play people in the right positions:

Ottens to ruck instead of forward
Corey on the ball instead of down back
Ling as a tagger not an attacking midfielder
Mackie to the backs from the wing/up forward

Amongst others. Improved us exponentially.

Add one more to that list:

Pre-2007 - Relying on Kingsley, Gardiner and Playfair to kick goals
2007-now - Relying on Mooney, Nathan Ablett and Tom Hawkins to kick goals (with a resulting win/loss record of 51-6 in that time)

 

[Ricketts]

2006 was a waste, after good seasons in 2004 and 2005.

In 2005 we lost to the premiers in the Semi's, when we should have won after having numerous guys out by the end of the 4th quarter. So the season wasn't really that bad compared to our 2004.

With regards to Harley, is his reputation enhanced by what came after? Or were the raps there before 07?

Was a bit of "hmmmm" when he was appointed, but everyone approved once we heard him doing interviews, as he speaks very well and said all the right things we wanted to hear. This was all before the 2007 season started, so his reputation wasn't totally enhanced by winning the flag, although it has obviously added to his reputation.