Opinion 2010 and the aftermath.

[magpielicious]

You win in 2010, the whole football world should be ours for the taking, right ? WRONG !!!
Instead of capitalising on that win and making the club stronger, we started with players putting their hands out for more. Cloke was first, then Tooveys management demanded more etc etc. MM did all he could to derail the club in 2011. So the signs were already there. Then with the succession plan on the cards, Bucks was always going to get rid of players who didn't fit his plan. With all of this going on, we have a recruiting manger who continues to recruit players who lack basic skills believing that a fairy godmother will teach them how to kick. Just ain't going to happen. Basically, mistake after mistake. Maybe we really do need to bottom out and rebuild from scratch ?

 

[TradeDraft]

Eddie stuffed the Club with the Stupid Succesion Plan.

Hiring Bucks with no AFL Coaching Experince is always a Terrible Idea

 

[jasonwilde]

What is the point of this thread?

 

[Vicky Park]

If this thread generates discussion about the club and how we have managed the post-MM era, its a worthy topic. But if it becomes another Buckley focused thread, then it will be merged.

 

[Kappa]

We don't need a full rebuild but we definitely need to have 2 drafts in a row we really nail to get the necessary talent back into the playing list.

The scary thing is we've traded away so many of our future draft picks that may be quite hard...

 

[TradeDraft]

We don't need a full rebuild but we definitely need to have 2 drafts in a row we really nail to get the necessary talent back into the playing list.

The scary thing is we've traded away so many of our future draft picks that may be quite hard...

Might have to do a Big Trade to get a Top 5 Pick

 

[Markfs]

And our premiership coach sits at home by the phone waiting for a call...

 

[Vicky Park]

FWIW, I struggle to understand how losing games causes us to interpret things in different ways. Sure, losing hurts, is debilitating, makes us angry. But we should be able to set that aside - no matter how disappointing - in order to coolly and objectively analyse our problems, and then set about rectifying them. Calling for universal sackings is not the answer. As a short term measure, it might make people feel better, but it may not be the solution.

E.g. how does Derek Hine go from being in the top three of recruiters, to a dud?

Is it really time for Ed to go, or is he still critically important to our future with his vision and plans? Would we stagnate as a club (talking club here, not team) without Ed at the helm?

Do we have the right personnel in Pert and Balme?

Was the departure of Rocket Eade a bigger loss than we recognised, if he was acting as a mentor to Bucks?

Do we need more new blood on our Board? Has it been turned over enough?

And then of course there's the performance and medical team.

These are valid club-related questions.

 

[Markfs]

FWIW, I struggle to understand how losing games causes us to interpret things in different ways. Sure, losing hurts, is debilitating, makes us angry. But we should be able to set that aside - no matter how disappointing - in order to coolly and objectively analyse our problems, and then set about rectifying them. Calling for universal sackings is not the answer. As a short term measure, it might make people feel better, but it may not be the solution.

E.g. how does Derek Hine go from being in the top three of recruiters, to a dud?

Is it really time for Ed to go, or is he still critically important to our future with his vision and plans? Would we stagnate as a club (talking club here, not team) without Ed at the helm?

Do we have the right personnel in Pert and Balme?

Was the departure of Rocket Eade a bigger loss than we recognised, if he was acting as a mentor to Bucks?

Do we need more new blood on our Board? Has it been turned over enough?

And then of course there's the performance and medical team.

These are valid club-related questions.

most of those questions would be solved by sacking bucks...

 

[welshm69]

We need some outside influence... Not ex players.

 

[Run n Spread]

The draw hype big win was great. 2011 was great and the flag was right up in sight till 3q time in the GF. Problem is it ain't 2010/11 anymore. Different era 18 teams and Collingwood is just 1 in place of a very complex pack. You can look as far ahead as you want. But ultimately it is that even across the board you seriously just need to win each week. Even more so as I really think given rule changes/week off there is a real shot to win a flag from outside the 4 in the near future. Hence you simply can't get ahead of yourself. Just treat it as true competition. (At least for the first half of the year) you can't pencil wins anymore. Too many teams/players playing for their futures in (a wider perspective hard economic times) to think anyone will just roll over. Just win as many as possible and recruit for need at the end of the year.

 

[magpielicious]

The point of this thread is look at the whole club and and NOT focus on coaches. Read it carefully !!
What have we done as a club to make us bigger and stronger on the field ? (don't throw the glass house etc at my face, I would rather be based in a shed at Vic Park as long as the team was successful)
Hawthorn have passed us in leaps and bounds. We are just lucky they have come from a small fan base.
Had that been Carlton or Essendon or even Richmond, we would be tearing down the westpac centre and baying for blood.

 

[magpielicious]

top 3 in who's eyes ?
As a recruiter, I want someone that can identify elite kicking players that you can mold a game plan around, not players you need to teach how to kick.

Top of my list for Pies is to throw the war chest at Graham Wright at Hawthorn and bring him back to Collingwood quick smart.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

FWIW, I struggle to understand how losing games causes us to interpret things in different ways. Sure, losing hurts, is debilitating, makes us angry. But we should be able to set that aside - no matter how disappointing - in order to coolly and objectively analyse our problems, and then set about rectifying them. Calling for universal sackings is not the answer. As a short term measure, it might make people feel better, but it may not be the solution.

E.g. how does Derek Hine go from being in the top three of recruiters, to a dud?

Is it really time for Ed to go, or is he still critically important to our future with his vision and plans? Would we stagnate as a club (talking club here, not team) without Ed at the helm?

Do we have the right personnel in Pert and Balme?

Was the departure of Rocket Eade a bigger loss than we recognised, if he was acting as a mentor to Bucks?

Do we need more new blood on our Board? Has it been turned over enough?

And then of course there's the performance and medical team.

These are valid club-related questions.

Too much common sense here.
I have advocated a major review, Geelong 2006 style, review everything.
From the board, to the football department, to the list, to the recruiters, to the medical staff, everything, including all coaches. The review should be conducted independently of the club (read Ed) influence.
I'm like many of us supporters very disappointed at the season thus far.
Maybe it was too much hype, a few recruits etc, where we leapt from being a lower middle order tram and thought right were easy top 8.
Richmond, Freo are in the poos too.
It happens.
That said, the ultimate fall guy is the coach. People call for a coaches head as the simplistic solution.
The catch is ofcourse one part, as is the cattle.
Took Mick 11 years! To win one with us. Other coaches took time.
Nathan may not be the answer, a review can determine that. Maybe he gets his contracted years. Maybe not.
The players will need to do their part too. Is the list equipped with enough elite? Maybe not, or they arnt here yet.
But if Nathan is to go unfulfilled, it's not unreasonable that it's done with dignity.
The scorn heaped on him (and every single thing some can find is then attributed back to him in at times a vulgar manner) is beneath how a professional football club should be run.

In that regard, Eddies stoic determination to support our coach is to be commended. Whether Nathan is the right fit or not is immaterial to honourable professional behaviour.
Now I've suggested the board and Ed should also be reviewed. Maybe, Ed has been there too long? But he does at least keep the club together in one direction. That is commendable.

The succession lab was Eddies brainchild, if it is not successful he will carry some responsibility.
No point re-writing history, it's done.
We have what we have. For me, once 2010 happened and then 2011 we should have asked Nathan to wait. He could have gone to North as their coach and didn't as part of the succession, but if that was a consequence of delaying the succession then so be it.
But it didn't happen that way, and here we are.
I think Nathan can coach, I don't worry about all the peripheral stuff (leading teams, building a new venue etc etc) that's all white noise.
Do we have a good enough core group of elite players to build a future that includes a number of flags, even one?
Pendlebury, swan (getting older ) Treloar look the ones at or near this level.
No one else is close. Not yet anyway.
Reid injuries have crueller him. Cloke maybe the game is passing him by. Happens.
So we are left awaiting Moore, De Goey, Scahrenberg, Grundy, Elliot to become the cornerstones of the future. Supported by Sideb, Williams, Aish etc
That's the future, will it stack up? Might be ok after all. Maybe not.
Who can know?
One thing about Nathan, he certainly wants Collingwood to succeed. His life's work is to gain a premiership for his club. I suspect by a large margin he wants Collingwood to succeed than most if not all BigFooty posters. His reputation, his legacy, likely aspects of his self esteem are all tied into success for his team. Paid well or not, he loses more than just about any supporter.

We live in interesting times. The future belongs to those that prepare for it.

 

[Adz]

We had an amazing year in 2011. It's really 2012-onwards that we must be critical of.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Graham Wright is terrific no doubt.
Everybody looks terrific when their side wins flags.
Hawthorn have built their dynasty after being bottom levels on getting Hodge, Mitchell, Roughead, Riolli, Franklin (for numerous years) all elite and they are complimented by others.
With great respect that's where their era is built on.
Wright then has been, rightly topping up, a find here and there.
But it's all built on their elite.

We won the flag in 2010 built on Pendlebury, Thomas (injuries have cruelled him), Swan, Cloke, Didak and topped off by Jolly (super important we don't win without him) and Ball (tough nut).

I'm of the view most of the top recruiters are in the know if who is best talent.

If say we had from day one Hodge, Mitchell, Roughead, Riolli we would be winning flags. End of story!
Mark Neeld could coach flags with that core elite group.

The great secret of Hawthorn ( and NOT us) is their older players are in career best form and remain high level performers. That we are poor at.

And recruiters are ultimately at the behest of the draft order. Hawthorns poor years yielded gold. Boy did Richmond stuff up then.
We can't change history, but say The Dogs took Scharenberg instead of Bontempelli and we got the Bont.
Assuming Scahrenberg for hem injured we would be much better on the field today with Marcus.
We are waiting for the blossoming of Matt, and it may in truth never come.
It's a crap shoot.
In the next few years De Goey and Moore may be our cornerstone bona fide elite, then we maybe the geniuses. But it still hasn't happened.

So by all means if we get Wright fantastic, just don't think Derek is the issue at all.

 

[mattys123]

"You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space."

Leave the past behind, please, we can't change it.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

We had an amazing year in 2011. It's really 2012-onwards that we must be critical of.

2012 was ok too.
I think the club learnt it was time to revamp as we weren't good enough to win the flag.
Geelong after 2011 stayed stable and didn't decide to go backwards to build again. They have treated water ever since. Only last year moving players on, and going for elite talent in Dangerfield.
It's interesting, at what point do you go backward to go forward.
MM rebuilt the side a couple of times.

 

[left at home]

And our premiership coach sits at home by the phone waiting for a call...

who cares, and he will be waiting, waiting, and still waiting

 

[Saintly Viewed]

who cares, and he will be waiting, waiting, and still waiting

And occasionally going on those walks past the Holden centre MCG precinct....

 

[THATSGOLD]

Eddie stuffed the Club with the Stupid Succesion Plan.

Hiring Bucks with no AFL Coaching Experince is always a Terrible Idea

So why not just say that 5 years ago when it happened?

 

[mike123]

You win in 2010, the whole football world should be ours for the taking, right ? WRONG !!!
Instead of capitalising on that win and making the club stronger, we started with players putting their hands out for more. Cloke was first, then Tooveys management demanded more etc etc. MM did all he could to derail the club in 2011. So the signs were already there. Then with the succession plan on the cards, Bucks was always going to get rid of players who didn't fit his plan. With all of this going on, we have a recruiting manger who continues to recruit players who lack basic skills believing that a fairy godmother will teach them how to kick. Just ain't going to happen. Basically, mistake after mistake. Maybe we really do need to bottom out and rebuild from scratch ?

I think Toovey's first. We really should have trade him at the end of 2011.

 

[ChubbyGallon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt this the 10th thread on the same subject that has came up this year..

 

[FootyGhost]

We had an amazing year in 2011. It's really 2012-onwards that we must be critical of.

What year did Buckley start as head coach and start sacking our premiership champions ??

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

Development is what has been really disappointing over the last five to six years. It doesn't feel like we have managed our young, or older, players particularly well.

I feel like players such as Grundy, Witts, Langdon, Sidebottom, Frost, Ben Kennedy, Seedsman and Karnezis are all examples of players that have/had great potential that we never developed.

Add to that our injuries like Beams, Reid, Scharenberg and Freeman.

Add to that guys like Cloke and Brown, and to a lesser extent Swan.

With the exception of Elliot it doesn't feel like any of our players have really developed into awesome players in a while.