2021 What went right, What went wrong?

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Blackhawk42 said:
Players in career best form who took multiple years to become young stars include Shai Bolton (2016 draft), Bailey Dale (2014 draft), Brandon Parfitt (2016) and that's just 3 examples from the clubs you mentioned. One step higher than those include Christian Salem (2013) and Darcy Parish (2015).

For us you highlighted Maginness, Downie and Smitchell who all came to our club essentially within the past 18 months. Patience is required.
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I would have happily taken Parfitt and Bolton off those teams in their first year at their club, We actually tried to take Bolton, but he wouln't leave Richmond for much more money. Parish was a top 10 pick. And Salem didn't just arrive this year - He was AA contention a few years ago.

So I'm not sure of your point, other than that incomplete comparisons are incomplete. Which I agree with - thus we need a complete comparison - and I predict we won't fare well. As I said I plan to do one. And not just 2nd round picks.

The last round 2 draft selection success we had was Brad Hill - and we let him go for unders - which is part of our list management failures. The next best round 2 selection was have had is Howe.
 
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Luv_our_club said:
I would have happily taken Parfitt and Bolton off those teams in their first years, We tried to take Bolton, but he wouln't leave Richmond for less money. Parish was a top 10 pick. And Salem didn't just arrive this year - He was AA contention a few years ago.

So I'm not sure of your point, other than that incomplete comparisons are incomplete. Which I agree with - thus we need a complete comparison - and I predict we won't fare well.

The last round 2 draft selection success we had was Brad Hill - and we let him go for unders - which is part of our list management failures. The next best is Howe.
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More so that you seemed quite absolute when using Finn, Downie and Smitchell as examples when saying 'no gold struck'.
Melbourne fans earlier this year were questioning whether the club made a mistake in selecting Salem in the top 10 of a strong draft. It's taken a long time for him to become a genuine top class player.
Bailey Dale was pick 45 in 2014. Now he's in All Australian form after being a fringe player in recent seasons.
I'm just saying that it's unfair to use those 3 young Hawk boys as example, because for all we know Downie plays 22 games next season and looks like a star.
 
Blackhawk42 said:
More so that you seemed quite absolute when using Finn, Downie and Smitchell as examples when saying 'no gold struck'.
Melbourne fans earlier this year were questioning whether the club made a mistake in selecting Salem in the top 10 of a strong draft. It's taken a long time for him to become a genuine top class player.
Bailey Dale was pick 45 in 2014. Now he's in All Australian form after being a fringe player in recent seasons.
I'm just saying that it's unfair to use those 3 young Hawk boys as example, because for all we know Downie plays 22 games next season and looks like a star.
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Finn is struggling at VFL level in a way that is predictable - he is not a player struggling at AFL level or not breaking into a strong lineup.

Downie struggles when a player comes close to contest with him for the ball - a huge worry - and his speed looks mitigated at VFL level.

Seamus - I agree with you on this one - he is injured - I can't say I have even seen him - but the reason I included him is because most of the other clubs were VERY surprised wheb we picked him at 29. Most clubs thought he would be available after 50. So, wtf are we doing.

I'm not writing them off - but nor am I resting my argument on those first year boys.
 
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Luv_our_club said:
Finn is struggling at VFL level is the way that is predictable - he is not a player struggling at AFL level or not breaking into a strong lineup.

Downie struggles when a player comes close to contest with him for the ball - a huge worry - and his speed looks mitigated at VFL level.

Seamus - I agree with you on this one - he is injured - I can't say I have even seen him - but the reason I included him is because most of the other clubs were VERY surprised wheb we picked him at 29. Most clubs thought he would be available after 50. So, wtf are we doing.

I'm not writing them off - but nor am I resting my argument on those first year boys.
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Both Downie and Finn had no proper footy last season to further develop. I've seen some fantastic signs from Connor in particular this season to suggest that he is going to be a very talented player for us sooner rather than later. I just think a little more patience is required. Finn has been a tad disappointing if you consider that he looked like a man-child that was ready to go. That's more a reflection on our expectations of him as opposed to his realistic development though. He has the tools and i'm confident it can click eventually.
 
Blackhawk42 said:
Both Downie and Finn had no proper footy last season to further develop. I've seen some fantastic signs from Connor in particular this season to suggest that he is going to be a very talented player for us sooner rather than later. I just think a little more patience is required. Finn has been a tad disappointing if you consider that he looked like a man-child that was ready to go. That's more a reflection on our expectations of him as opposed to his realistic development though. He has the tools and i'm confident it can click eventually.
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Good players normally show more than Finn and Downie. Good players normally show a lot more in their first year, but they need to bulk up or gain endurance. i can't say that about Finn or Downie.

I have been going to Box Hill since early 2000 and you could see Sicily's class, your could see Shoenmakers' class, you could see Williams' class. You could see Lewis' class.

The fact Downie didn't play last year; is more of an excuse for our recruiters. The big question mark over him was always his `inside' ability. i don't care how much more he improves in grades this year - the fact he can't show a turn of pace is a REAL concern.

Finn - I have high hopes for. I think in about 2 years he could come through - and be best 22. But right now he's a huge concern.

As I said, we need to do a complete comparison with other clubs. I would like to see one done, or do one myself.
 
Luv_our_club said:
Good players normally show more than Finn and Downie. Good players normally show a lot more in their first year, but they need to bulk up or gain endurance. i can't say that about Finn or Downie.

I have been going to Box Hill since early 2000 and you could see Sicily's class, your could see Shoenmakers' class, you could see Williams' class. You could see Lewis' class.

The fact Downie didn't play last year; is more of an excuse for our recruiters. The big question mark over him was always his `inside' ability. i don't care how much more he improves in grades this year - the fact he can't show a turn of pace is a REAL concern.

Finn - I have high hopes for. I think in about 2 years he could come through - and be best 22. But right now he's a huge concern.

As I said, we need to do a complete comparison with other clubs. I would like to see one done, or do one myself.
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Sorry hold on, how is it our recruiters fault that Downie didn't play last year? He was a Next Gen Academy pick and we simply matched a bid in the 40's to acquire him. We were always getting him there since he was in many phantoms draft in the top 25. It also wasn't anyones fault that nobody in Vic got to play footy last season.

We may have to agree to disagree, because having watched the past few Box Hill games it's been his turn of pace following a clean disposal that i've loved. Multiple times against Carlton in particular he absolutely burnt his direct opponent and got involved in a multiple possession chain. Is also cleaner picking the footy up off the ground than the majority of his team mates. Those are intangibles that translate beautifully to AFL level football.
 
Blackhawk42 said:
Sorry hold on, how is it our recruiters fault that Downie didn't play last year? He was a Next Gen Academy pick and we simply matched a bid in the 40's to acquire him. We were always getting him there since he was in many phantoms draft in the top 25. It also wasn't anyones fault that nobody in Vic got to play footy last season.

We may have to agree to disagree, because having watched the past few Box Hill games it's been his turn of pace following a clean disposal that i've loved. Multiple times against Carlton in particular he absolutely burnt his direct opponent and got involved in a multiple possession chain. Is also cleaner picking the footy up off the ground than the majority of his team mates. Those are intangibles that translate beautifully to AFL level football.
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I think you misread my post. .

Other than that let's just say we disagree.
 
Luv_our_club said:
Good players normally show more than Finn and Downie. Good players normally show a lot more in their first year, but they need to bulk up or gain endurance. i can't say that about Finn or Downie.

I have been going to Box Hill since early 2000 and you could see Sicily's class, your could see Shoenmakers' class, you could see Williams' class. You could see Lewis' class.

The fact Downie didn't play last year; is more of an excuse for our recruiters. The big question mark over him was always his `inside' ability. i don't care how much more he improves in grades this year - the fact he can't show a turn of pace is a REAL concern.

Finn - I have high hopes for. I think in about 2 years he could come through - and be best 22. But right now he's a huge concern.

As I said, we need to do a complete comparison with other clubs. I would like to see one done, or do one myself.
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Downie did enough in the eyes of the selectors to be 23rd man for round 1. He was very good in the preseason games. And the no turn of speed line is rubbish. He had a corkie a few weeks back when he looked flat. He will be up and down like pretty much every young player except the genuine freaks who can step in immediately. He is clean with his ball handling and a good kick and decision maker. Your assessment is harsh especially given he had a stop start season with being 23rd man and also being a carry over player.

Finn has been given a very specific tagging role this season. Perhaps it is to teach him where to run to get the ball more. He did get a call up in the seniors because he had shut down strong VFL players. There seems to be the view that Finn as an U18 player was a plug and play mid. I certainly didn't have this view having watched a few of his games. People constantly seem to have an expectation of him that is above where he is. I don't know where this has come from but it gets repeated time and time again. He hasn't shown nothing he has shown he can adapt his game and be an effective tagger. He isn't a ball magnet mid he is a role player. I would like him to have come in and be a Newcombe but he ain't that player.

Just find your focus on these two a tad perplexing.
 
I've been thinking a lot lately about when things don't live up to expectations - in AFL and elsewhere. I think we often blame people/strategies for "underperforming", when really we don't have our expectations a/ calibrated with reality; and b/ in line with actual potential of the people/strategies. This couples this with the fact that evolution is rarely linear - it can be knocked off course by changes in personnel, a lack of realisation of key strategic moves, injuries, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is two things: 1/ Every move is a risk; and 2/ We need to give some time for things to play out more (both individual player development and the club's post-2019 pivot in strategy).
 
The_Axeman said:
Mate, not sure what your little 'far right' rant is about, but keep the political comments to yourself. It's getting really tiresome, the way certain posters frequently inject their politically charged comments into threads like this one. At a time such as this, all I want is a diversion from the crap that is going on in the world, which BigFooty used to be. Go and find a politics forum where you can vent your spleen and keep this crap off BigFooty.
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maybe Jeff could do the same and use his position to speak about football
 
Right: The development of CJ, Kosi, Morrison, Moore and Scrim, the performance of the defence has been solid given the amount of ball going in there, Jaeger’s form when he has played, beating Essendon

Wrong: Refuse to point fingers at individuals because the “game plan” absolutely sucks. If we’re going to lose we should at least be trying to play footy that could win us games in the future.
 
Roger Rogerson said:
Downie did enough in the eyes of the selectors to be 23rd man for round 1. He was very good in the preseason games. And the no turn of speed line is rubbish. He had a corkie a few weeks back when he looked flat. He will be up and down like pretty much every young player except the genuine freaks who can step in immediately. He is clean with his ball handling and a good kick and decision maker. Your assessment is harsh especially given he had a stop start season with being 23rd man and also being a carry over player.

Finn has been given a very specific tagging role this season. Perhaps it is to teach him where to run to get the ball more. He did get a call up in the seniors because he had shut down strong VFL players. There seems to be the view that Finn as an U18 player was a plug and play mid. I certainly didn't have this view having watched a few of his games. People constantly seem to have an expectation of him that is above where he is. I don't know where this has come from but it gets repeated time and time again. He hasn't shown nothing he has shown he can adapt his game and be an effective tagger. He isn't a ball magnet mid he is a role player. I would like him to have come in and be a Newcombe but he ain't that player.

Just find your focus on these two a tad perplexing.
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Perhaps you should go and read my opinion of Finn when he was selected - you seem to forget. (they are in the Finn thread). The opinions you just gave on Finn, I gave repeatedly when he was 18 on this board (when everyone was calling him a star) and I got similar insults like "rubbish", "inept", "laughable". Now you are using my own opinions against me lol

I feel like there needs to be a moratorium on people calling other people's opinion "rubbish" like you just called mine, and other insults on this board.

It's just not needed. Surely people can express unvarnished views on Hawthorn without putting down other posters.
 

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Roger Rogerson said:
Downie did enough in the eyes of the selectors to be 23rd man for round 1. He was very good in the preseason games. And the no turn of speed line is rubbish. He had a corkie a few weeks back when he looked flat. He will be up and down like pretty much every young player except the genuine freaks who can step in immediately. He is clean with his ball handling and a good kick and decision maker. Your assessment is harsh especially given he had a stop start season with being 23rd man and also being a carry over player.

Finn has been given a very specific tagging role this season. Perhaps it is to teach him where to run to get the ball more. He did get a call up in the seniors because he had shut down strong VFL players. There seems to be the view that Finn as an U18 player was a plug and play mid. I certainly didn't have this view having watched a few of his games. People constantly seem to have an expectation of him that is above where he is. I don't know where this has come from but it gets repeated time and time again. He hasn't shown nothing he has shown he can adapt his game and be an effective tagger. He isn't a ball magnet mid he is a role player. I would like him to have come in and be a Newcombe but he ain't that player.

Just find your focus on these two a tad perplexing.
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Roger, it would be good if we could just talk footy (without the personal touch, and the assumptions - which is mostly why i hate personal slights in posts - they stifle real talk about footy).

In this thread I have actually not said much at all about the two players Finn and Downie -

What I said on them was that we haven't struck "gold" with 2nd round picks since Hill - and Finn and Donwnie fall within that dry spell for me. They aren't "gold". It doesn't mean they won't make it.

I also said that I still think Finn can make it. And I have said both players right now a real worry (that's all in this small thread). A real worry... you read a lot into that.

I think you already know my views on Finn - my reservations are the same that I posted (and that you read and discussed 2 years ago) when he was 18. I can get those posts for you if you want re-read them. I don't think I need to rehash them.

Re Downie - I agree my view is harsh - I tend to judge players on these boards not on their ability to put together a career but on their ability to be part of a premiership team.

I reckon there are things that recommend Downie for a simple career - such as his pre-season performances, especially his marking (shows smarts), his sure hands, his decision making and his general disposal. Much of what you actually said.

But, through my harsh lens, he worries me, because as far as I am concerned we drafted him as a player with line breaking speed (a link player of AFL quality) and I have not seen that line-breaking speed since the U/18' All Star game. I haven't seen it all year at VFL - until he shows it again in the VFL- he is a big worry for me, and not the premiership player I hoped. He wouldn't be the first player to have weapons taken away from him with the step up to VFL. I'm not saying he doesn't have that turn of speed still in him, but until he shows it at the VFL level (not the AFL as you suggest), I am worried.

Nothing about Finn or Downie recommends to me we struck "gold" with those round 2 selection. Nor did they at the time when they were drafted - views which i posted for both players when they were drafted.
 
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We’ve had a good development year. Lots of players have been given an opportunity and pretty much all of them have shown a bit.

 
The good
- the younger brigade in Scrimmers, CJ, Moore, Bramble and Kozzy showed a lot of promise.
- some of the senior players like Hardwick, Wingard, JOM and Tommy Mitchell had pretty good years.
- played some decent footy the last month and a half ( admittedly when the pressure was off but still nice to see)

The bad
- Gamestyle for much of the year (especially mid year) was awful and bodering on the unwatchable.
- Struggled to put more than 8 goals on the board for much of the season
- Midfield mix really struggled and got smacked way too often

What I want to see in 2022
- More attacking gamestyle with more run and dare
- Further development of our under 23s
- New mix in our midfield (Wingard plays as a full time mid is a non negotiable)
 
Right
- game plan after the bye... why it took so long to address is beyond me
- how well our defense held up with so many injuries
- young talent development e.g. CJ, Jai, Brockers, Scrimmers, Moore, Bramble, Reeves, Kosi, Lewis...
- BHH form

Wrong
- game plan pre bye
- coach transition debacle
- injuries
- board
- confirmation of our lack of list balance i.e. too many medium defenders, not enough small forwards, centre square mids with skills and pace, or quality outside mids
 
Right
- Keen eye recruiting, picked up Four best 22 starters between the mix of Drafts (Newcombe, Bramble, Brockman, DBG) with Downie, Callow, Saunders and Mitchell also showing promise.
- Nash, Moore, Kosi, Jiath and Reeves developing from the clouds to be solid contributors and some cases even more.
- Form against top 8 sides and post bye improvement.
- Membership numbers despite covid and bottom 2 for 99% of the season.
- Close bonding of the younger players


Wrong
- Handling of the coach turn over even if the decision was right.
- Form pre bye
- Midfield still not gelling
- Injuries to young players ie Day, Mitchell, CJ, Lewis, Kosi. Not seeing Sicily and Gunston for the year.

Edit- Should also note Hardwick returning to his best, will win our B&F
 
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Right:
- Surprise positive progression in CJ (star potential), Kosi, Reeves, Nash
- Quality value picks in Bramble and Newcombe looking long term prospects
- Positive development in Scrimshaw and Moore
- Good starts to the careers of DGB and Brockman
- The U22 part of the list looks much more promising than it did 12 months ago.

Wrong:
- Managerial and Presidential incompetence. The coaching succession fiasco made us a laughing stock, but it’s just the tip of the iceberg in relation to deeply concerning governance and managerial issues at the club over the last 18 months. The club is embarrassing off field.
- Injuries to Day, DGB, CJ robbing us of excitement and them of games
- Results. 5th year without winning a final. Speaks for itself
- Saving our best footy for dead rubbers under no pressure once again
- Persisting with a midfield setup that does not work. Until the last month
 
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