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List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

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The Toad said:
Wow, just plain WOW. You'd give up the Brownlow medallist and recent Coleman medallist because they are having a bad season.
This is just pure mind boggling.
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I would have traded Cripps years ago - never rated him as a captain and whilst he can be a gun player when he is on, the gap between his best and worst is too high. Given the way we structure up as a team ie almost entirely reliant on Cripps doing well in clearances, he is a liability atm. Ideally, Cripps would be playing a more peripheral role where his down days dont impact the team as signficantly.

The other part of this is trade capital - According to our coaching panel. Kennedy/Hewett/Cripps/Dow are all too similar - for mine -> 1st round pick + kennedy etc as primary inside mid will be a better long term outcome than Cripps in the centre in 2-3 years.


Harry - again, comes down to how we use him - if we cant get the best out of him and there is good trade capital then we should capitalise on it. Get the forward structures and goal kicking right, or alternatively play mckay upfield as a HFF/winger to take marks down the line ie as he did early in the season. As it stands though, would be better off with taking the pick and strengthening our team in other areas, focus on more goal scoring from the midfield and reducing our reliance on key forwards
 
Doro said:
I've raised this a few times and it usually doesn't go down that well. A lot of the better footballers over time have been flawed human beings who have had a scandal or two. Often a case of ' look at me' narcissism and extreme on field confidence that manifests off field with excessive alcohol consumption. We've been steering clear of these types and I don't believe it's a smart play. Footy clubs have always brought a multitude of different types together for a common cause. Hope we have a re-think on it myself.
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I've been a part of premierships, seen a lot of clubs win them at local level. I've been a part of a club who has high morals and cultural integrity however. Even at the lower level it has become apparent you can't win a flag without a few "S*** blokes" in the team. For some reason they have next level confidence, arrogance and x-factor.

The AFL is the same and the clubs who don't restrict themselves to recruiting certain personality types are the better clubs. Collingwood and Richmond are two clubs who have never bothered with who they bring in so much. But they also have a club culture and strong leadership group who can handle these sort of players.

Dusty Martin was a bit Dusty off the field, Richmond but an enormous amount of work and support into him. I was privileged to speak to the person he was living with as a young guy once, they really made sure he was guided well. Richmond was good for Dusty and they made him a better person and helped him fulfil his footballing ability and goals. Same goes for Collingwood and DeGoey, could have easily got rid of him but Collingwood have been good for him and have guided him to being a better person and he is now repaying them and more than likely will be a premiership player for them.

We have restricted our recruiting heavily with personality types. We have done it before, Malthouse was critical of our list having no extraverts when he first arrived at Carlton.

End of the day, you need them. They put premierships in your cabinet. If you are good enough and your a club which is good for these people.

Go back decades to the 60's era. My father trained with Essendon, could have gone there. They weren't much good at the time, he reckoned they were all very straight and narrow teetotaller, compared to Carlton at this period of time who were a top side, were winning flags and had a reputation for being hard drinking larrikinis. That was his story anyway.
 
No one can dispute that Dow is the 6th best based on best capabilities out of he, Cripps, George, Walsh, MK and Cerra. And I agree that when those 5 are in form, there’s absolutely no place for Dow.

But Cerra aside, and MK being played out of position, the other three have been garbage this year. So rather than us being blinded by what their best can bring, let’s make the assessment based on exposed form in which case Dow has a claim to get a call up for one of three.

The MC’s hand will be forced by reason of a mix of suspension and injury, but seriously, the current output of Cripps, Hewett and Walsh has been no better than a 15 disposal game from Dow.
 
gbatman said:
I've been thinking about it, what is it with players who have a personality type, who tend to be prone to breaking the rules off the field that makes, that makes them so good? We all know the types. The types we talk about on this board who people say we should stay away from but they end up with premierships at other clubs and are big players in making that happen.

Examples would be Dusty Martin, Wayne Carey, Jordan DeGoey, Brendan Fevola, Collingwood's rat pack etc etc. They are the special players who have immense talent but have something else about them we like to call x-factor that makes them match winners.

I've always wondered what made them great players and I think I've figured it out. They are people who are willing to break the rules off the field. They are probably people willing to break the rules on the field as well. Go against the team structure, team rules, game plan and make up plays that turn games. In the overcoached world they are the ones who make decisions themselves and go with it. They are the ones who have the confidence and dare to go against the rules and it's what makes them great. Obviously ability comes with it but there is something to it.

We don't have that at Carlton. We have tried so hard to build a culture at the club and done it with prim and proper, well disciplined types that we don't have anyone who is willing to break the rules, disobey team structure and take the game on.

Yes we have badly neglected legspeed and running ability with our recruiting but I think we have been too rigid with player personality assessment.

The sort of players I have mentioned, they is no way we would have taken any of them on, and they will go to other clubs and win those other clubs premierships and this is where our list management has failed us.

Yes I agree we need to build a strong mature culture at the club but there becomes a point where you have to realise you have that and you have to branch out with your recruiting and look for the x-factor.

Our team could sure do with some confident, quality independent thinkers and yes they might do the same off the field as well but other clubs manage that and live with it and happily accept the success these guys bring to their club so why can't we?
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Good post. We need more hard arsed pricks in the team, only maybe Cotrell fits that description at the moment.
 

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gbatman said:
I've been thinking about it, what is it with players who have a personality type, who tend to be prone to breaking the rules off the field that makes, that makes them so good? We all know the types. The types we talk about on this board who people say we should stay away from but they end up with premierships at other clubs and are big players in making that happen.

Examples would be Dusty Martin, Wayne Carey, Jordan DeGoey, Brendan Fevola, Collingwood's rat pack etc etc. They are the special players who have immense talent but have something else about them we like to call x-factor that makes them match winners.

I've always wondered what made them great players and I think I've figured it out. They are people who are willing to break the rules off the field. They are probably people willing to break the rules on the field as well. Go against the team structure, team rules, game plan and make up plays that turn games. In the overcoached world they are the ones who make decisions themselves and go with it. They are the ones who have the confidence and dare to go against the rules and it's what makes them great. Obviously ability comes with it but there is something to it.

We don't have that at Carlton. We have tried so hard to build a culture at the club and done it with prim and proper, well disciplined types that we don't have anyone who is willing to break the rules, disobey team structure and take the game on.

Yes we have badly neglected legspeed and running ability with our recruiting but I think we have been too rigid with player personality assessment.

The sort of players I have mentioned, they is no way we would have taken any of them on, and they will go to other clubs and win those other clubs premierships and this is where our list management has failed us.

Yes I agree we need to build a strong mature culture at the club but there becomes a point where you have to realise you have that and you have to branch out with your recruiting and look for the x-factor.

Our team could sure do with some confident, quality independent thinkers and yes they might do the same off the field as well but other clubs manage that and live with it and happily accept the success these guys bring to their club so why can't we?
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Daniel Connors…
& a cameo from Lance Angwin
 
For boredom sake - The Nuclear option...

Trade Value (Roughly)
Cripps - top 5 pick
Mckay - top 5 pick
TDK - top 25 pick
Gov - top 35 pick
Dow - top 50 pick
Fisher - top 40 pick
Jack - top 40 pick

Delist
Cuningham
Marchbank
Ed Curnow
Honey

Cripps + 2023 First ---- WCE Pick 1: Harley Reid
Mckay ---- North Pick 3: Nick Watson
TDK + Gov ---- Geelong Pick 14: Darcy Wilson
2024 First + Fisher ---- Melbourne Pick 15: Will Patton
Jack + Dow + 2024 4th x2 ---- Gold Coast Pick 28: Trade to Bris for Kai Lohmann

Leaves us with...

Williams Weitering Patton
Saad Young Cowan
Cottrell Reid Hollands
Durdin Watson Wilson
Motlop Curnow Lohmann
Pittonet Cerra Walsh

Docherty Kennedy Boyd Acres

Then we'd need to fill another 6-7 list spots with rookies and free agents, likely cutting our depth even further.

Personally... I think we'd just be better off sticking with what we've got and trying to bring in a couple of good kids with the trades and changes we're already likely to make. The trade Cripps and Harry version wouldn't really do a hell of a lot more for us, maybe in 4-5 years we'd be better off but theres every chance we'd be able to make some big moves during that time anyway.
 
4thchicken said:
I would have traded Cripps years ago - never rated him as a captain and whilst he can be a gun player when he is on, the gap between his best and worst is too high. Given the way we structure up as a team ie almost entirely reliant on Cripps doing well in clearances, he is a liability atm. Ideally, Cripps would be playing a more peripheral role where his down days dont impact the team as signficantly.

The other part of this is trade capital - According to our coaching panel. Kennedy/Hewett/Cripps/Dow are all too similar - for mine -> 1st round pick + kennedy etc as primary inside mid will be a better long term outcome than Cripps in the centre in 2-3 years.


Harry - again, comes down to how we use him - if we cant get the best out of him and there is good trade capital then we should capitalise on it. Get the forward structures and goal kicking right, or alternatively play mckay upfield as a HFF/winger to take marks down the line ie as he did early in the season. As it stands though, would be better off with taking the pick and strengthening our team in other areas, focus on more goal scoring from the midfield and reducing our reliance on key forwards
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As the great man Dalton once said "Opions vary"
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
For boredom sake - The Nuclear option...

Trade Value (Roughly)
Cripps - top 5 pick
Mckay - top 5 pick
TDK - top 25 pick
Gov - top 35 pick
Dow - top 50 pick
Fisher - top 40 pick
Jack - top 40 pick

Delist
Cuningham
Marchbank
Ed Curnow
Honey

Cripps + 2023 First ---- WCE Pick 1: Harley Reid
Mckay ---- North Pick 3: Nick Watson
TDK + Gov ---- Geelong Pick 14: Darcy Wilson
2024 First + Fisher ---- Melbourne Pick 15: Will Patton
Jack + Dow + 2024 4th x2 ---- Gold Coast Pick 28: Trade to Bris for Kai Lohmann

Leaves us with...

Williams Weitering Patton
Saad Young Cowan
Cottrell Reid Hollands
Durdin Watson Wilson
Motlop Curnow Lohmann
Pittonet Cerra Walsh

Docherty Kennedy Boyd Acres

Then we'd need to fill another 6-7 list spots with rookies and free agents, likely cutting our depth even further.

Personally... I think we'd just be better off sticking with what we've got and trying to bring in a couple of good kids with the trades and changes we're already likely to make. The trade Cripps and Harry version wouldn't really do a hell of a lot more for us, maybe in 4-5 years we'd be better off but theres every chance we'd be able to make some big moves during that time anyway.
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West Coast are in a worse position than us. They aren't going to trade in a 28-year-old Cripps for anything of value. Try it with Freo. e.g. Freo's first round pick. Forget Reid - if we're going nuclear, we'll want a bunch of early picks rather than combining them for one pick (no matter how good he is).

And for the record, I don't think "going nuclear" is a good idea.
 
KohPhi said:
And it begins..... 🤦‍♂️
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The first line and the last paragraph sort of mention that I don't want us to trade Cripps or Harry, I think moving on TDK Kennedy Gov and Fish is enough to get us some good picks combined with our current picks. I'm just hypothesizing because I'm bored.

I'd much rather keep the captain of our Footy club and reigning Brownlow medallist and adjust who's surrounding him.
 
Bletch said:
West Coast are in a worse position than us. They aren't going to trade in a 28-year-old Cripps for anything of value. Try it with Freo. e.g. Freo's first round pick. Forget Reid - if we're going nuclear, we'll want a bunch of early picks rather than combining them for one pick (no matter how good he is).

And for the record, I don't think "going nuclear" is a good idea.
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I agree, even bringing in those young guns I don't think we'd be any better off other than in terms of cap space. Said from the start of the year I think we need to change about 4-6 players from our best 22 to contend and none of which have to be stars. A couple of good role players and a few top end draft picks and I think we'd be extremely hard to beat.
 

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Madness to be thinking about trading Cripps, McKay etc. That’s a massive overreaction. We need to fix our system and we’ll maximise the talent of our list. Those guys all of a sudden didn’t lose their talent.

We have a few list holes. Foot skills obviously is a key thing to focus on as the modern game relies on scoring from turnover and on transition. Part of that improvement once again comes from improved game plan and growing player confidence.

What I feel we really need is to work out who our best third tall up forward is. JSOS should be in our best 22 but not as a forward. Our third tall forward needs more athleticism and mobility.

We sorely miss having an X factor and dynamic half forward flank. Martin and Cuningham have all the talent to be this player but for various reasons it hasn’t worked. That’s the position we need to address most.

Another issue to sort out is our support ruck. Pittonet is fine as lead ruck but he necessitates the need for a mobile second ruck who is decent up forward. TDK should be that guy but his forward craft needs improvement if that is to work. Obviously if he leaves at the end of the year we’ll need to look at this. Or do we sole ruck with Pitto and find a chop out from Young, McKay etc.

We need an experienced small forward to help guide Durdin and Motlop, who both have obvious talent to persist with.

Backline is largely fine. Maybe needs a durable third tall. Has solid key talls (Weitering, Young, S. Durdin). Has solid rebound types (Saad, Docherty, Williams, Boyd). Issue is with McGovern (injury prone, half efforts), Marchbank (injury prone), Kemp (unproven and IMO not a natural defender).

Those are the main issues:
  • Third tall forward with mobility who ideally has some ruck chops. Someone who adds to Charlie and Harry. E.g. a Finlayson type.
  • Dynamic half forward flank who can work up the ground and spend some time in the middle. E.g. a De Goey type.
  • Experienced pressure small forward who chases and tackles and busts his gut. E.g. Lachie Schultz type
  • Luxury trade and a lower priority- third tall defender. Ideally a Harry Himmelberg type.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
For boredom sake - The Nuclear option...

Trade Value (Roughly)
Cripps - top 5 pick
Mckay - top 5 pick
TDK - top 25 pick
Gov - top 35 pick
Dow - top 50 pick
Fisher - top 40 pick
Jack - top 40 pick

Delist
Cuningham
Marchbank
Ed Curnow
Honey

Cripps + 2023 First ---- WCE Pick 1: Harley Reid
Mckay ---- North Pick 3: Nick Watson
TDK + Gov ---- Geelong Pick 14: Darcy Wilson
2024 First + Fisher ---- Melbourne Pick 15: Will Patton
Jack + Dow + 2024 4th x2 ---- Gold Coast Pick 28: Trade to Bris for Kai Lohmann

Leaves us with...

Williams Weitering Patton
Saad Young Cowan
Cottrell Reid Hollands
Durdin Watson Wilson
Motlop Curnow Lohmann
Pittonet Cerra Walsh

Docherty Kennedy Boyd Acres

Then we'd need to fill another 6-7 list spots with rookies and free agents, likely cutting our depth even further.

Personally... I think we'd just be better off sticking with what we've got and trying to bring in a couple of good kids with the trades and changes we're already likely to make. The trade Cripps and Harry version wouldn't really do a hell of a lot more for us, maybe in 4-5 years we'd be better off but theres every chance we'd be able to make some big moves during that time anyway.
Click to expand...

You need to forget about Reid and Watson mate. They won't happen.
 
KohPhi said:
And it begins..... 🤦‍♂️
Click to expand...
So It Begins Helms Deep GIF by Giphy QA
 

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HarryFlashman said:
Is Reid really worth the extra effort? I’ve watched his games with us & he looks awesome, but so did Caddy - he actually impressed me more. Both look like they make an impact day one. I wouldn’t be spending anything to move up.
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Agreed. If we can somehow bank 2 - 3 first round picks we use all three and start this rebuild again.

That's where we're at right now in my view. Mini rebuild. We need to shed a lot of injury prone dead weight and failed trades and get in some new youth, with hopefully a brand new development program. Kids are having impact pretty much straight away these days so if we can identify the right talent, we could flip this list in a couple of years.

We need fast, skilled and crafty footballers all over the ground. We need more run from defence, burst from the stoppage and a bit of forward craft. Some of the main pieces are there but I have no confidence in those surrounding them. I worry about our slow midfield and our stoic defence.
 
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