List Mgmt. 2024 List Management 📃

[WyntersGame_]

And you know this as being factual?

If you are asking if I have first hand knowledge, the answer is no. However like every player who gets traded there was "talk" about the reasons for the move and the whispers were that was the reasoning. No different to opposition fans reading a Carlton forum to find an understanding on why Dow was moving on and what the rumors' were surrounding it.

Nothing proven but an understanding this was the reason he moved on

I didn't compare the Constable to Dow, I replied to another poster who mentioned Constable

If I was making a correlation between the 2 players, it was merely highlighting the same sentiment, that some players struggle to improve significantly on their strengths and weaknesses from their junior years, to enable them from being best 22 players

Constable, Dow, Toumpass and many others

Fair Enough, I'm of the opinion that Dow has improved enough to be pushing for selection and the SUB position. I also think there is more improvement there, where as I never saw that for Constable and thought it was a harsh comparison. (ill stick to him as he was the original player we were talking about).

If it wasn't noted there were other players discussed in my post and this wasn't all suppose to be about Dow which seems to be a trend id like to avoid.

However I can understand why you only responded to the bit about him, but I would rather we avoid taking over the thread talking about Dow as there is more than enough of that already with the same round & round commentary

 

[Arr0w]

If you are asking if I have first hand knowledge, the answer is no. However like every player who gets traded there was "talk" about the reasons for the move and the whispers were that was the reasoning. No different to opposition fans reading a Carlton forum to find an understanding on why Dow was moving on and what the rumors' were surrounding it.

Nothing proven but an understanding this was the reason he moved on


Fair Enough, I'm of the opinion that Dow has improved enough to be pushing for selection and the SUB position. I also think there is more improvement there, where as I never saw that for Constable and thought it was a harsh comparison. (ill stick to him as he was the original player we were talking about).

If it wasn't noted there were other players discussed in my post and this wasn't all suppose to be about Dow which seems to be a trend id like to avoid.

However I can understand why you only responded to the bit about him, but I would rather we avoid taking over the thread talking about Dow as there is more than enough of that already with the same round & round commentary

You better get use to Dow dominating most threads, every single preview and autopsy thread this year, now this thread

Would be great to discuss other players, but someone will start the Dow rhetoric once again

 

[thegreatbeast]

Dunno if anyone has mentioned it yet, but what about Boyd as a high half forward when Williams is back in the side?

 

[Arr0w]

Dunno if anyone has mentioned it yet, but what about Boyd as a high half forward when Williams is back in the side?

Wouldn't mind it, played there when at the Dogs VFL side.

Handy versatility with Boyd and Williams

 

[thylacine60]

gonna/gotta be close to a complete team come march 2024............

 

[Arr0w]

gonna/gotta be close to a complete team come march 2024............

Would like to see an athletic 3rd tall forward Gov style, let's have a look at Kemp in that role.

A quick forward/mid rotation similar to Zac Bailey, Williams?

A tough shutdown KPD, Sam Collins style

Then wait for an O'Keffee to mature

 

[azlou]

Would like to see an athletic 3rd tall forward Gov style, let's have a look at Kemp in that role.

A quick forward/mid rotation similar to Zac Bailey, Williams?

A tough shutdown KPD, Sam Collins style

Then wait for an O'Keffee to mature

Nice I want to try Boyd Kemp and Williams forward we are stacked for back flankers.
I think we ran out of petrol vs Brisbane but why where we bombing to 50-45 from the wing was that just pressure we needed that extra possession to get deeper and give the forwards time to spread. Coleman killed us seemed free to sweep all our forward momentum

 

[DangerousD]

You better get use to Dow dominating most threads, every single preview and autopsy thread this year, now this thread

Would be great to discuss other players, but someone will start the Dow rhetoric once again

What about.

If Durdin is just a break glass in emergency player, why not recruit a better SANFL or VFL key defender?

If Dow and Fisher go, our next midfielder up is Carrol, would a top VFL or SANFL mid offer better depth or potential than Carroll?

Does Austin see our rucks as a weakness? You have Goldstein who is free, available and an upgrade on what we have, but there seems to be no interest, it’s weird to me.

 

[JustaBattler]

And neither acres or Hollande helps us there

I just don't understand what games people watch when they think that Carlton's 'problem' is lack of running speed in the midfield...the real issue is lack of genuine class in kicking the ball - people think Voss was a great contested mid- yeah he was- he was also a great kick of the ball ...

I can't kick a ball further than 30 meters but even my front rower's hoof can beat the fastest runners 30 meters run by 15 meters on a bad day...

Voss has stated what needs to improve at Carlton and that is what he calls 'midfield connection in transition ' and 'better forward fifty entries' - that is kicking.

Walsh has to start thinking less about running the ball all teh time and more about receiving it in better position to kick it to advantage. Walsh ahs teh running power to actually buy time to find the right kick -that would lift him to next level...

The whole midfield is too much run and then bomb and too little run and look for smarter kick. They have to do it as team - not as one out - the one out caper is a recipe for bombing.

I really enjoy watching Naicos he runs to kick - his kicks make his team mates look good as receivers. Very smart player - him and Bottompelli are my two favorite AFL quarterbacks - Pendelbury used to be the best. Sydney have that Gulden bloke another kicking gun..all our best kicks are in the back six and have no one to kick to that can set things up for the spread.

Hope this gets fixed for next year - in my mind it was THE difference between Carlton and GWS/Collingwood - it was Sudney'kciking that allowed them to play catch-up in the final. Adelaide have a few decent kicks as well...St Kilda have Sinclair....who does Carlton have in that midfield class as far as field kicking goes?

 

[Monty1978]

You better get use to Dow dominating most threads, every single preview and autopsy thread this year, now this thread

Would be great to discuss other players, but someone will start

I reckon you talk about Dow the most to be honest .. we get you don’t like him but you respond to everyone that speaks highly of him … your the opposite of Harry flash man , he can’t stop talking positive of him .. I got flashbacks of ray lotta telling Joe Pesci he is a funny guy in goodfellas when I read the above ..for mine without Dow and you and Harry , big footy would be abit boring

 

[JustOneTime]

Personally, these discussions on speed need to be talked about in the context of with and without the ball.

Every time i watch Carlton against a good opponent and an opponent with a counterattack/turnover game, i wince each time the opposition start to get outside and spread. I start to go 'oh no' in my head. Most of the stoppages im going please lock it in or win the clearance or we are forked.

In these moments without the ball, i can see we need more speed/spread capability.

When we have won the clearance, i dont care so much about speed. It is more about execution skills/decision making.

Surely most people feel on here that on average we earn our goals so bloody hard and opposition teams can get easy over the back goals or uncontested fwd 50 mark goals. Not all goals but based on the entire season...we bust our nuts getting goals. That is a direct reference to speed and without the ball position/strategy.

Vossy has to make a decision on stoppage game vs turnover game with his personnel.

 

[thegreatbeast]

What about.

If Durdin is just a break glass in emergency player, why not recruit a better SANFL or VFL key defender?

If Dow and Fisher go, our next midfielder up is Carrol, would a top VFL or SANFL mid offer better depth or potential than Carroll?

Does Austin see our rucks as a weakness? You have Goldstein who is free, available and an upgrade on what we have, but there seems to be no interest, it’s weird to me.

Williams/Fogarty/Doc/Carroll/Binns. Also if Elijah comes in after Dow departs.

I am still more inclined to go down the path of 2 mobile rucks with TDK being #1. If Pittonet could mark, I would happily keep him in, but being a tap ruckman and that's it, is hindering at times.

 

[Arr0w]

I reckon you talk about Dow the most to be honest .

I only start to chime in again when I see falsehood regarding Dow, it's cult like how elite a fringe player has become

We get you don’t like him

Nothing to do with like or dislike

but you respond to everyone that speaks highly of him

I respond with how I see a player, strengths and weaknesses rather than just purely one sidedness

 

[TENACIOUS]

God this Dow talk is boring...

The same people banging on the same crap as last week, and the week before that and the week before that...

Give our eyes a rest...

 

[Santo the king]

It's hard to accept, and it's an old cliche, but once a player enters the club they are selected by, where they were drafted becomes completely irrelevant.

I do think that Dow has the ability to be a solid AFL football player. At times during our winning period this year I felt he contributed better to our mix than Kennedy and even Hewett at times.
His issue is really his lack of flexibility. With Ed retiring, Hewett is really our only defense first midfielder, and Kennedy does have the potential to float forward (at times).

The only other fridge players that I can think of that have been spoken about this highly in the past have been Charlie Constable (we've seen how that played out), Kym LeBois... who kicked a really good goal in a preseason game once and people on this board probably still think he could be the next Eddie Betts, and now Elijah Hollands...

Lets pretend we are on the selection committee.

Who is the first mid you pick.
Cripps.
Ok. Who is next?
Walsh perhaps.
Right. Who do we pick to compliment.
Cerra, as the inside outside mid.
Hewitt as defensive mid.

Dow can only play midfield and when you pick the team he doesnt fit in.

He is 100% an afl mid, but not a first choice for us. Its nothing more complicated. He is deserves a spot and i would love to keep him as depth, as he he does have some weapons. But ultimately he would need to squeeze cerra or cripps out of the midfield and that is unlikely.

 

[My Hat]

I really enjoy watching Naicos he runs to kick - his kicks make his team mates look good as receivers. Very smart player - him and Bottompelli are my two favorite AFL quarterbacks - Pendelbury used to be the best. Sydney have that Gulden bloke another kicking gun..all our best kicks are in the back six and have no one to kick to that can set things up for the spread.

Great point.

Thinking back to the Hollands kick to Doc in that chain of play against Melbourne. It turned out perfectly, but let's be honest, it probably wasn't quite what he intended. Players who can do that sort of thing intentionally -- look at the receiver, think about the next play they'll need to make and then position the ball just right for them -- those guys are gold.

 

[JuddgementDay]

gonna/gotta be close to a complete team come march 2024............

Agreed
It didn’t take much to change our team in 2023

We’ve added Acres & Hollands - that immediately changed our running capacity
With natural improvements from other players we’ve got to a PF

With ZWilliam and another quickish mid (maybe Philp/ E Hollands) it will change & improve our team dynamics again for 2024

 

[GapInIkonPark]

The point about the ‘starting 5 mids‘ of Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Hewett and Kennedy is that as a group they do not defend in midfield all that well.

Each is ahead of Dow and by some distance though.

He is not displacing 1 of the 5, can not play in defence, our wingers are far better 2 way runners, and each of our forwards are far better. Centre square is his go or he’s not in the team.

The eye test is Dow looks good in midfield stoppages when he wins the ball and looks poor when seemingly jogging when the opposition has the ball.

Not all high draft picks make it. We’ve already seen that recently with SPS.

 

[dangertroy]

What about.

If Durdin is just a break glass in emergency player, why not recruit a better SANFL or VFL key defender?

If Dow and Fisher go, our next midfielder up is Carrol, would a top VFL or SANFL mid offer better depth or potential than Carroll?

Does Austin see our rucks as a weakness? You have Goldstein who is free, available and an upgrade on what we have, but there seems to be no interest, it’s weird to me.

We got Durdin because he was one of the best SANFL key defenders. We kept Durdin and let O Mac go instead, and now he’s key defender in the VFL team of the year.

As long as Durdin is happy with being depth, then there is no need to churn these roles. Whoever we replace him with would still be a break glass type.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Where is the talk about Hayden Crozier

9

Hayden Crozier

Age

31

Ht

187cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.2

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

4.6

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.8

4star

MG

322.8

4star

D

15.4

4star

K

11.3

4star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.9

4star

MG

322.8

5star

D

10.4

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.6

4star

coming from? I don't get it.

 

[M_I_G]

The point about the ‘starting 5 mids‘ of Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Hewett and Kennedy is that as a group they do not defend in midfield all that well ().

Each is ahead of Dow and by some distance though.

He is not displacing 1 of the 5, can not play in defence, our wingers are far better 2 way runners, and each of our forwards are far better. Centre square is his go or he’s not in the team.

The eye test is Dow looks good in midfield stoppages when he wins the ball and looks poor when seemingly jogging when the opposition has the ball.

IMO hes been a focal point on wider discussion about game style/tactics & selection.

Oh damn, another Dow thread I’m with Harry .
For me it’s about the midfield as a system, and how that influences our game style/success. Rather than picking mids in an order. I think Dow and cripps work great together at the bounce.

In 2023 Dow wins the center clearance more regularly than any other AFL midfielder (as a % of center bounce attendances). With the 6-6-6 rule I see all the upside of getting it in and away from stoppage.
Know others focus on other elements of his game, and not trying to say he is the perfect player (know we have a full team of those) but for me, if winning center clearance is a key metric that gives fwds first look, he’s a great asset to have on game day. Even when he played as sub he had impact.
And when he goes to another team it’ll be fine, we will move on and he will/won’t get a game depending on if they can harness his elite ability to extract it in their game system
#dowloverperspective

 

[Ash24]

I'd have thought f1 would get used before likely bids?

Sorry I'm not sure we're on the same page. We can't use our future 1st before the Campo bid because then we have nothing to match with.

 

[windows1]

You better get use to Dow dominating most threads, every single preview and autopsy thread this year, now this thread

Would be great to discuss other players, but someone will start the Dow rhetoric once again

To the extent I have contributed to this I apologise to the whole board. What a boring topic it has become.

 

[gbatman]

No we didn't, we just played stronger sides in finals

This so called better balanced and right midfield mix, won by a kick against the Demons H&A as it did in finals


It's on the whole team, not just one player


Every side has lost to the Lions at the Gabba, they are a strong unit, even sides that have a so called quick midfield, so it's a fallacy

It was on the back of not sustaining pressure and not executing under pressure


Those tractors beat quicker sides 2nd half of the season


The same team structure that started and ended the 2nd half run


Again, not factual

Dow has selective pace and Fisher struggles with defensive strength


Incorrect, most flag winning sides rate top 6 for contested ball and strong defensive profile


Any close win especially in finals can be considered lucky

We can either shut our eyes, pretend and continue to double down that Voss can't coach, or accept that we were 1 win away from a GF, when you and others wanted him sacked even after round 15


And we would have leaked more goals


While turning over the ball and not adhering to defensive positioning


I'd call it Russian roulette, miss and becomes ineffective


Where have I seem this before, move countless magnets to fit in a fringe player.

Drop defender put Doc, Walsh wing so Dow can play.

Coaching/team selection doesn't work that way


Again our run started and finished without the likes of Dow and Fisher. IMHO, we looked a better side without them and results reflected that

No, we beat Sydney, Collingwood, Melbourne, GWS etc in the h/a season. Better sides, well maybe Brisbane. We beat Melbourne without them kicking horrendously for goal and with Brayshaw in the side dominating. Melbourne were weaker in finals and should have won by 4 goals give or take. We got lucky.

Charlie Curnow not kicking goals is on the whole team. We could get it to him during our good run in the h/a season because we got our ball movement right. We couldn't. That fact a player that good in that much form could not kick goals just goes to prove our ball movement was once again broken. By the coach.

Those tractors were not playing in the second half of the season. That's why we started winning! Cerra could run, came back unable to run games out let alone play at a high level. We stopped playing Kennedy and Hewett in the same team. We selected a quick, two way running half back line. That was literally the major changes that turned our season around.

Not sustaining pressure because the selected a side that wasn't as good as it. We should have lost at the MCG the week prior but we had an insane amount of luck, them missing very gettable goals had nothing to do with us.

Not the same team structure. Clear as day.

Dow has agility and pace that probably only Walsh can match or Cerra when he is fit. Again the token quick quy in the middle and the token quick guy in defence idea failed. That isn't what we were doing when we were winning.

Fisher in his whole time playing senior football off half back did not leak goals and did not struggle with defensive skills. So where has this come from?

Top 6 yeah but not necessarily top 1 or 2 like we appear to be obsessed with. All flag winning sides are elite with their run from behind the ball and closing speed or pressure around the ball. We went away from that. Don't have to be elite, just good.

Any close win where the opposition kick 9.17 isn't lucky, it's extremely lucky.

I would have been happy to leak a few more goals if it meant we kicked more. We couldn't score for 3 quarters. Even with a good forward line.

Our run started with guys like Cerra and Cincotta being able to run. They couldn't in the end, something needed doing about that. Fisher and Dow were form players offering what we barely had and were dropped. Form players winning games against really strong sides. You can't ignore that. Dropped and having unfit out of form blokes play in their place. Our run started by dropping a few slower players out of the midfield and backline and embracing modern football. Defend by playing close and using closing speed around the ball. Attach by running the ball, going aggressively and direct up the middle. Running in chains etc. All of which was extinguished at selection for a more defencive backline with no flair and bigger bodies who became withches hats in the middle.

We changed the structure come finals, it didn't work well, we lucked a couple of wins and then got bundled out of a game, which with a 5 goal lead at quarter time, we probably should have won if we were able to run the game out but we were torched for pace and found unable to match it.

 

[DangerousD]

We got Durdin because he was one of the best SANFL key defenders. We kept Durdin and let O Mac go instead, and now he’s key defender in the VFL team of the year.

As long as Durdin is happy with being depth, then there is no need to churn these roles. Whoever we replace him with would still be a break glass type.

I see a few spots where there are players that would be better, Omac had good games for us, his body just couldn’t hold up.

Durdin was one of the best in the SANFL, if he’s been overtaken, replace him