Autopsy 2025 Rd 1 Most Embarrassing Loss in Years

[JustaBattler]

I understand your points and they are fair but I still thinks it's much deeper.

IMO we played the worst side ever (may not win another game this year) lead easily, and we fell apart. The same things that happened on Thursday happened last year. It was the worst performance I have seen in 30 years

People can talk about issues with small fwds, pace, kicking and more but I think its hiding bigger problems

How often in the last 12 months have we put togther a proper 4 quarter effort?

People can argue whether we are good enough to be a finals side etc (I believe it is) but IMO there is no way this list is as bad as it is showing. My genuine fear is it's the same things over and over again and nothing seems to change

It was a bad loss for sure- but Ive seen worse performances.

The players I look as barometers for how we are going in any game are : McGovern Saad Acres and Harry - the difference between their best and their worst is A grade to C grade and you never know what you are going to get. This has flow on effects to the role players and takes the shine off from the consistent players.

The most frustrating thing for me is the difference between good and bad Carlton and I think that is explained by the above.

 

[Soapy V]

the midfield went missing first - Cerra, Walsh and Hewett all invisible. TDK pretty average too frankly.

And Acres had a shocker.

Plus an invisible HF line - makes it tough..on the defence...

(granted those skill errors, on a fine night, were inexcusable)

Again. People highlighting issues around areas of ground

My question is why are these things happening?

If we go through all the after match talk on here over last 12 months it's the same thing every week

 

[Soapy V]

It was a bad loss for sure- but Ive seen worse performances.

The players I look as barometers for how we are going in any game are : McGovern Saad Acres and Harry - the difference between their best and their worst is A grade to C grade and you never know what you are going to get. This has flow on effects to the role players and takes the shine off from the consistent players.

The most frustrating thing for me is the difference between good and bad Carlton and I think that is explained by the above.

I haven't

Again we are tallking about individuals or smaller issues and whilst I don't disagree I still believe it's hiding bigger problems

The same things are just happening way too often now

 

[JustaBattler]

I haven't

Again we are tallking about individuals or smaller issues and whilst I don't disagree I still believe it's hiding bigger problems

The same things are just happening way too often now

Oh I can tell you in very simple terms what the 'bigger issues' are. But it would take a long post or conversation to go through it all point by point.

In TLDR version too many players have not earned the money that they have been on (and more importantly the TIME that they have been given) for one reason or another - and it has nothing to do with coaching.

Still on the list as senior players are:

McGovern and Williams totally unreliable but key parts of the mix. Only last year did Carlton bite the bullet on Cuningham/Marchbank and Martin ( add Docherty to the list if you want to be fair dinkum)

Now add Charlie Curnow and Walsh who were top20 players easy - but are now nowhere near it based on last year's performances and question marks over Cerra's sustainability these have been HUGE outs for Carlton for extended periods of time.

I can go on but I have concluded that Carlton's curent list is finals quality of all goes well and that is about it - too many loose spanners and too many flaky players - either never as good as what we paid for or injuries have to be managed continuously and forever.

Lets not make the Carlton mistake of over estimating the real list week in week out capaibility versus reality. Voss's job is to get them to finals whilst the list is improved over time with good development of youth - the mission is to replace the weaker older players with developing youth whilst putting in good performances as possible.

eg Expecting McGovern to play week in week out A grade levels is a dream - he is a repurposed third tall. Expecting Willimas to be an A grade small forward week in week out or even B grade is a dream - same for a busted up Fantasia. etc etc etc ...

 

[Soapy V]

Oh I can tell you in very simple terms what the 'bigger issues' are. But it would take a long post or conversation to go through it all point by point.

In TLDR version too many players have not earned the money that they have been on (and more importantly the TIME that they have been given) for one reason or another - and it has nothing to do with coaching.

Still on the list as senior players are:

McGovern and Williams totally unreliable but key parts of the mix. Only last year did Carlton bite the bullet on Cuningham/Marchbank and Martin ( add Docherty to the list if you want to be fair dinkum)

Now add Charlie Curnow and Walsh who were top20 players easy - but are now nowhere near it based on last year's performances and question marks over Cerra's sustainability these have been HUGE outs for Carlton for extended periods of time.

I can go on but I have concluded that Carlton's curent list is finals quality of all goes well and that is about it - too many loose spanners and too many flaky players - either never as good as what we paid for or injuries have to be managed continuously and forever.

Lets not make the Carlton mistake of over estimating the real list week in week out capaibility versus reality. Voss's job is to get them to finals whilst the list is improved over time with good development of youth - the mission is to replace the weaker older players with developing youth whilst putting in good performances as possible.

eg Expecting McGovern to play week in week out A grade levels is a dream - he is a repurposed third tall. Expecting Willimas to be an A grade small forward week in week out or even B grade is a dream - same for a busted up Fantasia. etc etc etc ...

Whilst I agree that our players have been poor and should be highly criticised for their efforts (it really p1sses me off) I have never seen a club do well that doesn't have a buy in or belief in what the coaches are doing

Right or wrong that's what happens. We could have the best list in the AFL but if they don't believe you will never get the effort. That's just human nature

Whether people believe this list is a Top 4 list or a bottom 4 list there is no way it is performing to a level it should. Not even close

 

[Arr0w]

Lots of cliches and especially rhetorical statements, let's step out

I'll set aside last year or the year before as it has minimal relevance now, and focus purely on the one outing so far

In order of cause

• Players as a collective put in an absolute poor display of commitment and intent
• Toe poking the ball instead of placing head over the pill
• Lack of 2 way running to create equal or outnumber at the contest
• Ignoring the jumper, seeking glory moments, instead of teammates in better positions
• Forwards not hitting up at the ball carrier (And people wonder why the likes of Owies played more as a marking forward, he created space for himself)

Essentially, went through the motions

Coaching

• Playing mids at HF that lack forward nous
• Not reactive to opposition tactical moves, until the game was all but lost
• Premeditated ball movement (also falls on the players)

Voss is a people manager, just like Fly, play to that strength, but you have to wonder as to the IQ of the rest of the coaches compared to their cohorts at other clubs

 

[RAPPA]

We have a history of bagging the coach but gee I reckon we have a culture of players who pick and choose when they go

An easy excuse to defer responsibility to the A graders - at some point you’d hope the penny drops that players can’t rely on Superman efforts from Weitering down back, Cripps in the middle and Charlie up forward to do the work of the collective 22.

 

[JustaBattler]

Whilst I agree that our players have been poor and should be highly criticised for their efforts (it really p1sses me off) I have never seen a club do well that doesn't have a buy in or belief in what the coaches are doing

Right or wrong that's what happens. We could have the best list in the AFL but if they don't believe you will never get the effort. That's just human nature

Whether people believe this list is a Top 4 list or a bottom 4 list there is no way it is performing to a level it should. Not even close

I don't respect what McGovern, Williams dish up week in week out - I think they have had a lend of the Club since they arrived- same for Martin - these behaviours from senior players are very. bad ingredients. Similarly I didnt respect all the please stay Harry McKay/and now TDK crapola.

I think Carlton has allowed itself to be captured ( again) by stars - who aren't really stars.

At least Cripps and Weitering earn their money for the Club week in week out.

Cook stated that players need to sacrifice to stay together- I ask "what sacrifice" are we seeing really? The Club should have been able to get Houston AND Smith if it wasnt so constrained with salary cap.

Imagine these 'star' players surrounded by conditional pretend A graders and then having developing kid/role players who cant execute basic AFL standard skills to work with...TDK is going to be only as 'good' as the players that surround him - VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT that CRLTON DOESNT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND.

well that is what we've ended up with.

I think players and their managers have way way too much power over Clubs- if it was fair dinkum - players could be traded whenever a Club felt like it wanted to- just like in all grown up professional sports.

Instead lets blame coaches for everything- convenient but ultimately self defeating anyway - as Carlton has found out at great cost over and over and over again.

 

[JustOneTime]

Mcgovern is a conditional footballer preying on our need for a faster defender who can kick. Does just enough to suck us in.

When people talk about whether it is the players or the coach it is both, one is accountable and one is responsible. Mcgovern is responsible for turning up with a professional attitude and Voss is accountable for fixing it when it is not. Both failed in round one. If vossy cant spot it early and rectify it then he isnt who we want.

Carlton and Vossy never set the bar on what is required by dropping a conditional player like Mcgovern and setting the minimum standard. The entire media know Mcgovern is conditional but he plays every week. Hence, Vossy is a pretty average coach IMO desperate on the short view of a weekend game.

 

[Soapy V]

I don't respect what McGovern, Williams dish up week in week out - I think they have had a lend of the Club since they arrived- same for Martin - these behaviours from senior players are very. bad ingredients. Similarly I didnt respect all the please stay Harry McKay/and now TDK crapola.

I think Carlton has allowed itself to be captured ( again) by stars - who aren't really stars.

At least Cripps and Weitering earn their money for the Club week in week out.

Cook stated that players need to sacrifice to stay together- I ask "what sacrifice" are we seeing really? The Club should have been able to get Houston AND Smith if it wasnt so constrained with salary cap.

Imagine these 'star' players surrounded by conditional pretend A graders and then having developing kid/role players who cant execute basic AFL standard skills to work with...TDK is going to be only as 'good' as the players that surround him - VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT that CRLTON DOESNT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND.

well that is what we've ended up with.

I think players and their managers have way way too much power over Clubs- if it was fair dinkum - players could be traded whenever a Club felt like it wanted to- just like in all grown up professional sports.

Instead lets blame coaches for everything- convenient but ultimately self defeating anyway - as Carlton has found out at great cost over and over and over again.

I think you’re missing my point. I’m not blaming coaches for everything at all BUT if you are going to fix issues you need to start somewhere and if players aren’t buying in or trusting message or we don’t have a game plan that works, we simply aren’t going anywhere

I would also be dropping a number of players for lack of effort. Again if coaches are “allowing” this then they need to take responsibility as well

 

[Stamos]

Now add Charlie Curnow and Walsh who were top20 players easy - but are now nowhere near it based on last year's performances

I think this is overstating the drop-off for these two.

Walsh, off no pre-season and missing the first 4 games managed to come equal 15th in the Coaches' Award and 3rd in our B&F.

Charlie, playing under duress for much of the year still came 3rd in the Coleman, and that was with a conversion rate well below his standard.

 

[goreds]

First and foremost, AFL footy is about winning the ball and using it well (and more often than not quickly).

We won it enough, used it so, so poorly.

Inexcusable at this level.

And one has to ask how we changed our ways so much between the GWS drubbing and last Thursday....

They had no interest in playing their game style. It was about miles in legs and a few in game gear changes which they had been training the weeks prior. One could say a well-coached team...

We have too many (endurance) types in our side. I don't care if you can run all day! The ball travels 10 times faster by foot than by leg speed, especially out of D50. Get Doc to HB alongside Saad, both can kick, and Doc has the vision to create and run...

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

Game plan or players execution is a bit "chicken or the egg"

When you have 2 players free to intercept a kick landing just inside defensive 50 with the most uncontested f marks, right next to the boundary, and not only do they not mark the ball but they both fall over and fail to move the ball 6 inches across the boundary resulting in the opposition winning the ball and kicking it to a man who has been left unattended in the square because every Carlton defender assumed an AFL player could take an uncontested mark when he had a second defender protecting him and had pressed forward I think we can confidently say it was skills not game plan.

Similarly when a senior player in his 11th year at AFL level wins the ball at half back under minimal pressure and has a team mate in the exact right position to support him and accept the relieving 3m backwards handpass and that senior player misses that handpass by 2m, and not only that but putting it 2m behind the supporting player giving them no chance of correcting the mistake, you can't blame game plan - only skills.

Even McGovern's soccer off the ground when the 3 nearest players to him were all Carlton and a simple handball up would have released Cerra can't be blamed on game plan - nor can Cowan's miskicking what should have been a bomb down the line that should have been spoiled out of bounds at a minimum but instead landed in an opponents arms in the corridor.

All 4 of these instances the "game plan" worked perfectly - the players were in the right position and team mates had moved to support them but the appalling skills rendered the plan moot.

P.S. - kicking 9.15 also can't be blamed on game plan when a lot of the goals were very gettable

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

I think this is overstating the drop-off for these two.

Walsh, off no pre-season and missing the first 4 games managed to come equal 15th in the Coaches' Award and 3rd in our B&F.

Charlie, playing under duress for much of the year still came 3rd in the Coleman, and that was with a conversion rate well below his standard.

Charlie I don't think can be accused of a significant drop off in form but I really can't think of the last game Walsh impacted - even last week he ended up with 25 possessions but I can't remember any of them

 

[SurreyBlue]

I’m just watching the replay and yes glutton for punishment but I really want to know what happened to dropping the ball rule. How many times can a player pick it up, drop it, pick it up and drop it again, all while being tackled and not get penalised?

 

[carlton_99]

I’m just watching the replay and yes glutton for punishment but I really want to know what happened to dropping the ball rule. How many times can a player pick it up, drop it, pick it up and drop it again, all while being tackled and not get penalised?

Dropping the ball isn't really a rule in itself. With holding the ball if you have had no prior opportunity all you need to do is make a genuine attempt to dispose of the ball. So if you try to dispose of it in some way and drop it in the process it isn't HTB. Only if you drop the ball after having prior opportunity to dispose of it is it HTB.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

I’m just watching the replay and yes glutton for punishment but I really want to know what happened to dropping the ball rule. How many times can a player pick it up, drop it, pick it up and drop it again, all while being tackled and not get penalised?

Yep I noticed that watching live

 

[Stamos]

Charlie I don't think can be accused of a significant drop off in form but I really can't think of the last game Walsh impacted - even last week he ended up with 25 possessions but I can't remember any of them

Certainly dropped off towards the end of the year coming off no pre-season.

Was good in round 24 against the Saints (equal BOG).
Tiges in Round 16 (2nd behind Cripps).
He polled Coaches' Votes in 9 of his first 11 games.

He struggled on Thursday coming off no praccy matches no doubt. But it's more an issue of your memory than his impact last year.

 

[Ezayyak]

I bet everyone on here thought the game plan and team were humming when the score was 40 something to 7.

Game plan has nothing to do with player execution of basic skills especially in key moments. I think the team put the cue in the rack mentally way too early - meanwhile Richmond kept on plugging away and the bounce of the ball started going their way and then the basic skill execution got worse and worse...

To me all the game said was that Carlton is carrying a few too many NQR players who get by on the work of others - so nothing has changed because a coach or game plan cant change the basic capabilities of too many players having a bad day - especially when you get experienced players like McGovern Haynes and Docherty spudding it up monumentally on repeat occasions.

I dont think supporters can expect to see anything else except a roller coaster ride - there aren't any easy fixes.

Winning or losing will get down to having the best players available and for the role players to not stuff it up too often.

We were 40-7 up because the opposition was young and over-awed- we were playing an under 14s team. We were getting away with the way we played. Once they finally adjusted to what we were doing, ie long bombs inside 50 on repeat they adjusted and torched us the same way every other team did on in the back end of last year; flood the backline and burn us on the counter. As we are not a fast side and we play high defence it happened over and over.

Our game plan invites skill errors and panic because we are left exposed on the slingshot.

Our game plan is pre-school level stuff. You just need to watch hawthorn and Collingwood's ball movement and inside 50 setup to see that. It is an exposed mess right now

 

[CCurnow3picks]

I’m just watching the replay and yes glutton for punishment but I really want to know what happened to dropping the ball rule. How many times can a player pick it up, drop it, pick it up and drop it again, all while being tackled and not get penalised?

Umps certainly let it go

 

[Stamos]

Our game plan invites skill errors and panic because we are left exposed on the slingshot.

Our game plan is pre-school level stuff. You just need to watch hawthorn and Collingwood's ball movement and inside 50 setup to see that. It is an exposed mess right now

I think it's not so much game plan in the big picture sense as it is not enough drilling on the fundamentals.
I know that's the no.1 priority of Fly's at the Filth, think it might be Mitchell's as well.

That's what we stuff up too much and put ourselves under pressure.
For want of better terms, we need to fix/focus on the micro game plan before we worry too much about the macro.

We were 40-7 up because the opposition was young and over-awed- we were playing an under 14s team. We were getting away with the way we played.

We were up 40-7 because we burned multiple opportunities that should have been goals. Should have been up much further than that.

 

[JustaBattler]

When you have 2 players free to intercept a kick landing just inside defensive 50 with the most uncontested f marks, right next to the boundary, and not only do they not mark the ball but they both fall over and fail to move the ball 6 inches across the boundary resulting in the opposition winning the ball and kicking it to a man who has been left unattended in the square because every Carlton defender assumed an AFL player could take an uncontested mark when he had a second defender protecting him and had pressed forward I think we can confidently say it was skills not game plan.

Similarly when a senior player in his 11th year at AFL level wins the ball at half back under minimal pressure and has a team mate in the exact right position to support him and accept the relieving 3m backwards handpass and that senior player misses that handpass by 2m, and not only that but putting it 2m behind the supporting player giving them no chance of correcting the mistake, you can't blame game plan - only skills.

Even McGovern's soccer off the ground when the 3 nearest players to him were all Carlton and a simple handball up would have released Cerra can't be blamed on game plan - nor can Cowan's miskicking what should have been a bomb down the line that should have been spoiled out of bounds at a minimum but instead landed in an opponents arms in the corridor.

All 4 of these instances the "game plan" worked perfectly - the players were in the right position and team mates had moved to support them but the appalling skills rendered the plan moot.

P.S. - kicking 9.15 also can't be blamed on game plan when a lot of the goals were very gettable

You've highlighted a fraction of the CRAPOLA that the players managed to 'execute' to Richmond's advantage- just eradicating two of them would have changed the match result - it was a PATHetICALLY below par AFL performance for 3 quarters as far as skill execution goes - so bad it beggars belief.

and this has been a cornerstone fail of the team for a long time now- so I can understand why people point the fingers at coaching because of players need to be reminded about the importance of basic skills execution it shoudl happen at training and the punishment shoudl be first felt AT TRAINING - rather than in real games where people can then kid themselves - ojh well if it wasnt for this or that brain fart the result woulda been different....

thats why I say both players AND coaches are responsible and there is NO EASY FIX in a week or three - so lets get used to it.

I think supporters have become so used to crapola skills from this mob that they think it is part of the game in every part of the field in every fken contest - so people focus on the rare examples of good stuff and excited bout the 1in ten times players manage to put three possessions together without breakdown.

Lucas Camporele and Ollie Hollands showed more composure than most of the team under much more heat than some of their bludging older players showed - and now we are seeing Cowan starting to be
Carltonised with his no pressure up and under to opposiiton and turnover kicks - Docherty has been doing this for years- as for Docherty's effort missing a team mate by so much - DISGUSTING - he was doing that before he was repurposed into some sort of wing/HFF because as a defender he had become a panic turnover merchant.

People want to love so called Carlton legends and at the same time not hold them accountable for legendary fails - leaders have NO BUSINESS costing games- they are no longer leaders they are something else.

The only legend at Carlton right now is Cripps and his sidekick Weitering - the rest are all pretenders.

 

[JustaBattler]

I think this is overstating the drop-off for these two.

Walsh, off no pre-season and missing the first 4 games managed to come equal 15th in the Coaches' Award and 3rd in our B&F.

Charlie, playing under duress for much of the year still came 3rd in the Coleman, and that was with a conversion rate well below his standard.

Walsh isn't half the player he was 2 years ago he has not improved or developed his game he is playing one out, selfish and looking through blinkers with every possession and has become a turnover merchant - he doesnt bring team mates into the game he doesn't make players around him better- he needs a recalibration real fast - in short form - no way is he playing like a pick 1 or anything close to it. So obvious not even worth arguing about - sadly.

As for Charlie he will be on care and maintenance ( just like Walsh) forever - both these are n top 5 for salary from Carlton - one maybe you can afford - not two or three.

 

[Stamos]

Walsh isn't half the player he was 2 years ago he has not improved or developed his game he is playing one out, selfish and looking through blinkers with every possession and has become a turnover merchant - he doesnt bring team mates into the game he doesn't make players around him better- he needs a recalibration real fast - in short form - no way is he playing like a pick 1 or anything close to it. So obvious not even worth arguing about - sadly.

This isn't true. He was great through the start of last year.
He clearly dropped off after Round 16, fitness/injuries caught up with him. And then Thursday was his first hit-out when most of the team was terrible.

But crazy to write him off and think he won't get back to his best.

 

[RAPPA]

Walsh isn't half the player he was 2 years ago he has not improved or developed his game he is playing one out, selfish and looking through blinkers with every possession and has become a turnover merchant - he doesnt bring team mates into the game he doesn't make players around him better- he needs a recalibration real fast - in short form - no way is he playing like a pick 1 or anything close to it. So obvious not even worth arguing about - sadly.

As for Charlie he will be on care and maintenance ( just like Walsh) forever - both these are n top 5 for salary from Carlton - one maybe you can afford - not two or three.

Have to agree. Walsh has become the dump kick specialist. Also tries to emulate Cripps by bulldozing through tackles, but lacks the strength and either gets pinged for HTB or dishes off a hospital handpass. Put aside the seduction of possession count and he has drifted since 2023.

My concern for Charlie is the willingness to compete 1 v 1. Too often he didn't want to jump for the mark and preyed on trying to get his opponent under the ball so it could go over the top and he could run onto it. The kicking for goal also become less reliable last year.

Both have issues / concerns with their bodies. We carry far too many players who are not durable.